Breaking GURPS

[Captain_Bleach]

So, I have been looking into GURPS, and it looks pretty interesting and neat, but I have a couple of questions;
1.) Is there any rules inconsistencies/game imbalances that I should look out for?
2.) Is there any auto-win "I just broke the game" abilities/events that I should also look out for?
3.) How good would the system blend with a mixture of gothic horror/dark fantasy? I am planning on finding a non-d20 rule-set for Ravenloft.

[Voss]

Wow, deja vu.

I'm pretty sure that during your bullshit quest to get an Official Opinion on *every roleplaying game in existence*, we've covered GURPS a time or two. Go look up your old threads.

Particularly the one you just fvcking started on bloody Ravenloft.

[Crissa]

It's possible to 'break' GURPS by:

1. Putting high point value piles together
2. Allowing spellcasting vs skills
3. Not preparing Unusual Background costs for strong and or world-rare abilities that would break the real world.

You could 'win' by having psionics in a non-psionics world, etc.

Make sure to read all the footnotes in the sourcebook you're setting in - they will generally show you the parts which can break easily. The concept with GURPS is to have a real-world simulation - which isn't always conducive to a story - and then blend that with study, guides, bibliographies, etc. Many people buy GURPS books not to play GURPS, but to use the source material, background, or gamemastering suggestions.

I personally love GURPS. But it's a very cerebral system. It's designed so that you can make your own game with it.

-Crissa

[Captain_Bleach]

1191198432[/unixtime]]Wow, deja vu.

I'm pretty sure that during your bullshit quest to get an Official Opinion on *every roleplaying game in existence*, we've covered GURPS a time or two. Go look up your old threads.

Particularly the one you just fvcking started on bloody Ravenloft.

My memory isn't very good. I forget easily.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1191198432[/unixtime]]Wow, deja vu.

I'm pretty sure that during your bullshit quest to get an Official Opinion on *every roleplaying game in existence*, we've covered GURPS a time or two. Go look up your old threads.

Particularly the one you just fvcking started on bloody Ravenloft.

That was highly uncalled for, the man's just asking a question. No one died and made you King Rude the XV

The only thing I know about GURPS is that I had a GURPS 2E book, which my brother borrowed then never gave back. I'd still like to try the system out, to be honest.

[Voss]

For the nth time, which has gotten pretty irritating. Much like a small child asking, 'Are we there yet?' every five minutes. Especially since this thread is going in the exact same direction as the Ravenloft thread he started 4 hours before.
But let no man be king before me. I crown myself King Voss the Rude. All others are pretenders.

As for forgetting- its not like those threads have disappeared. You can go look stuff up on the internet. Use the search function and find *gasp* even more shit on Gurps.

[CalibronXXX]

We all have our quirks, and we all have our pet peeves, unfortunately it seems that CBs quirk, the constant asking of questions, also seems to be Voss' pet peeve.

And seriously Capn' use the search function for stuff like this in the future, it works good.

[Captain_Bleach]

1191210447[/unixtime]]We all have our quirks, and we all have our pet peeves, unfortunately it seems that CBs quirk, the constant asking of questions, also seems to be Voss' pet peeve.

And seriously Capn' use the search function for stuff like this in the future, it works good.

Alright.

[ckafrica]

I found when playing high point gurps games, players could cheese it by having really high DX and IQ to avoid spending points in skills. You might want to cap max points in attributes to avoid this. Also taking the running skill read that it increased speed which increased dodge so even a low run might bump it a bit. Might want to ban it or make sure everyone does it. That is based on third ed though; I don't what new in 4th

[Koumei]

I'm not sure how well the search function works. I tried finding "Explosive Spell" (someone mentioned K explaining how powerful it is), and found no results - not even the post that led me to search for it.

[CalibronXXX]

Make sure that on the category dealing with age of the material it's set to "and older" not "and newer". Also make sure to put a check box next to the forums you want to search, that's all I can think of off hand.

[Neeek]

1191214275[/unixtime]]I'm not sure how well the search function works. I tried finding "Explosive Spell" (someone mentioned K explaining how powerful it is), and found no results - not even the post that led me to search for it.

Did you switch the time frame to "and older"? The default is essentially "within the last 5 hours", so you've got to adjust it.

The search function, however, does suck pretty bad.

[CalibronXXX]

Really? It's never failed me before, but then again that's just anecdotal evidence. How does the search work for all'a yous?

[Koumei]

First time I failed hard, because it was "and newer". Second time... whoops, looks like I didn't check any forums. I need to lurk moar.

[shirak]

To get back on topic:

Anything that could conceivably break the real world will break GURPS. That's because GURPS, at it's heart, is a real world simulator. So if you have a guy with a sword against a flying invisible sniper, the odds are kinda stacked. And if you include a mage in a party, the odds will be stacked.

Btw, I don't see Unusual Background as a sufficient limitation. The fact that I have to spend all my points to get Flight, Invisibility and Deathtouch doesn't make me any less superior to the Fighter, it just makes me more one-dimensional.

[Crissa]

Unusual Background isn't 'sufficient', it's merely part of the set of tools available. It's another way of saying 'you will suck if you go this far' but it's also another way of making sure that the growth of cost in points is matched to the results one will get in a campaign.

Most costs in the basic books will be based upon a simple growth, but perhaps the world doesn't have a mechanism to deal with, or would need to assert more to deal with it, then the abililty needs to cost more with each level, and perhaps be limited to ways that the world can deal with it.

There's no reason Little Red Riding Hood should find out later that the Wolf has an Amadtine pelt, anyhow. The GM needs to make sure he's chosen and balanced the abilities he's chosen for his world, and is ready to make the world clear to his players.

-Crissa

[cthulhu]

I hate the search tool

I find the problem with GURPS is that character generation isn't very user friendly for first timers. Lots of little 'you need to know' things in it.

[Fwib]

1191216543[/unixtime]]Really? It's never failed me before, but then again that's just anecdotal evidence. How does the search work for all'a yous?

I tried using it to find discussion of Cthulhu d20 (or any CoC, really) but I couldn't find anything - I figured either it had never been discussed here, or everyone was using one of the zillions of variant spellings.

[ckafrica]

I didn't get the engine to when I tried it but maybe its just because I'm a luddite when it comes to operating forums.

I found GURPS ranged combat had way too many variables so I always ended up cheesing it and randomly assigning penalties to my players. But we end ran that eventually by almost exclusively doing melee. the martial arts book was cool as if I remember correctly. I only had original magic book which gave mages a real hard time casting thwakoom spells

[RandomCasualty]

Mainly GURPS's problems are overspecialization. If the GM doesn't cap you as far as putting your points into stuff, you can be a combat god just by putting tons of points into one thing.

For instance.

Super DR: you can't be hurt... by well, anything. This is especially powerful in fantasy games as swords do less damage than guns, so even a DR of say 5 or 10 can be a super dominant ability, because it stacks with armor.

Super melee skill: You always hit, even when aiming for the neck or eyes. Also, your parry skill is so high that virtually nobody can hit you, so long as you always parry attacks. It's not so great in a modern game, but pretty crazy for fantasy GURPS.

Some broken spells: GURPS magic has some insane stuff you can do. Like there's no limit on the number of undead servants you can create with their version of animate dead (I forget what it's called). You can literally just go crazy as a necromancer and have an army of infinite undead.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Super DR: you can't be hurt... by well, anything. This is especially powerful in fantasy games as swords do less damage than guns, so even a DR of say 5 or 10 can be a super dominant ability, because it stacks with armor.

That's a setting issue. If the setting is so high fantasy that you can be a demon-golem hybrid, then there are going to be stone-cutting swords to mess up your day. If the setting isn't that kind of high fantasy, where does the DR come from? Normal humans can't buy that shit.

Super melee skill: You always hit, even when aiming for the neck or eyes. Also, your parry skill is so high that virtually nobody can hit you, so long as you always parry attacks. It's not so great in a modern game, but pretty crazy for fantasy GURPS.

I don't remember if there's still an age-based limit on how many points you can drop into skills, but I do know that you still only have one one parry per turn. Two if you're on full defense and not accomplishing anything. So a couple of all-out attacking goons will still wreck you up.

Some broken spells: GURPS magic has some insane stuff you can do. Like there's no limit on the number of undead servants you can create with their version of animate dead (I forget what it's called). You can literally just go crazy as a necromancer and have an army of infinite undead.

1) Zombies suck. They really are capable of almost nothing worthwhile. 2) The limit on zombies is the limit of reasonably intact corpse availability. This actually is an issue.

Holes in the magic system are in spells like Earth To Stone, which allows a circle of 10 mages to replace all of medieval Europe's steel production, or simple Create Earth, which is a monster in the hands of an imaginative player.

[RandomCasualty]

1191262009[/unixtime]]
That's a setting issue. If the setting is so high fantasy that you can be a demon-golem hybrid, then there are going to be stone-cutting swords to mess up your day. If the setting isn't that kind of high fantasy, where does the DR come from? Normal humans can't buy that shit.

Right, a lot of GURPS is mediated by common sense, but that's not really a mechanical thing. I'm assuming a "crazy go nuts, buy what you want" system, since almost any game can theoretically be policed by the GM just saying no to player choices.

I don't remember if there's still an age-based limit on how many points you can drop into skills, but I do know that you still only have one one parry per turn. Two if you're on full defense and not accomplishing anything. So a couple of all-out attacking goons will still wreck you up.

Yeah. you can still get outnumbered. That's why DR is generally better. And no I don't think the new GURPS has any age limits.

Holes in the magic system are in spells like Earth To Stone, which allows a circle of 10 mages to replace all of medieval Europe's steel production, or simple Create Earth, which is a monster in the hands of an imaginative player.

Yeah, there are a lot more broken spells too.

Speaking of which, putting tons of points into an individual spell can be sort of broken too. Given that your spell save DCs (the GURPS equivalent anyway) are determined by your skill roll. So rolling a skill 25 spell is almost impossible to block, also due to the fact that spells tend to target quantities that scale slowly, like will.

[ckafrica]

1191262348[/unixtime]]
Right, a lot of GURPS is mediated by common sense, but that's not really a mechanical thing. I'm assuming a "crazy go nuts, buy what you want" system, since almost any game can theoretically be policed by the GM just saying no to player choices.

Yeah but what you can make in GURPS is completely determined by the DM and always has. He says no/yes to this this and this and it is so. Otherwise you start picking out of the supers book when you're playing cyberpunk. This preempts your players from cheesing it in a way you don't want them to. Same way you set point limits on disadvantages so they don't cheese it there.

[RandomCasualty]

1191264221[/unixtime]]
Yeah but what you can make in GURPS is completely determined by the DM and always has. He says no/yes to this this and this and it is so. Otherwise you start picking out of the supers book when you're playing cyberpunk. This preempts your players from cheesing it in a way you don't want them to. Same way you set point limits on disadvantages so they don't cheese it there.

Well, right. But this is about breaking a system.

Any system is potentially balanced if the GM yes/nos everything, but I figure a thread about broken mechanics is partially about what to decline/approve as a GM and why.

And really even in a fantasy setting, it's possible to get some pretty crazy DR, because you only need small amounts like 2 or 3 stacked with the DR you get from armor and you're very tough to injure. And you can easily do that by justifying it with "I'm a lizard man" or unusual background (dipped into the river Styx) or something.

[Bigode]

Heh, the search never failed me ...

I'd recommend making the entire party in question either magical or psionic (and not mixing the 2) - much easier than juggling background costs IMO, and GURPS' FX doesn't require much sacrifice of anything else, so everyone can have a concept independent of FX and augment it.

Also, I recommend using the search.