[SR4] Street Samuraizing

[UmaroVI]

The Auto-Assault 16 is the only really usable shotgun because it comes with Gas-Vents, which for inexplicable reasons can't be installed on any other shotgun.

You can't use APF ammo with choke. Shotguns use the choke rule with shot, which works like Flechette, but isn't Flechette, and there's no Armor Piercing Shot.

Re: the -2 penalty, honestly, I don't know. The table says -2 per target. The text says SA and BF attacks take -2 to the second target if they engage two targets. FA has a little section on "multiple targets" (just like the other two types) that doesn't mention a penalty.

[unnamednpc]

Technically, you can't buy any shot ammo at all, can you? The only tangible information there is is "treat shot like flechette", and since flechette is a listed item, technically hunting squirrels in your backyard costs ten bucks a pop.
That is, if you take the RAW literally, which you shouldn't, because it's got less coherent editing than the fucking Voynich manuscript.Op

[Silent Wayfarer]

The Auto-Assault 16 is the only really usable shotgun because it comes with Gas-Vents, which for inexplicable reasons can't be installed on any other shotgun.

Wut.

Yeah, that's fucked up. I was pondering a switch to Longarms, but now shotguns seem to be single/short burst only, final destination. So... not much better than a proper AR.

Re: the -2 penalty, honestly, I don't know. The table says -2 per target. The text says SA and BF attacks take -2 to the second target if they engage two targets. FA has a little section on "multiple targets" (just like the other two types) that doesn't mention a penalty.

Yeah, messed up. For SA/BF I can understand because shooting is a Simple action so you might want to blam two people at the same time. FA can hit up to 3 people within a meter of each other, but there's no rules for multiple target stuff there.

On an unrelated note, is the Viper Slivergun the best reason to use pistols? It has... ludicrous damage, a gigantic ammo cap and a built in suppressor for 5R and 500 nuyen.

[JesterZero]

On an unrelated note, is the Viper Slivergun the best reason to use pistols? It has... ludicrous damage, a gigantic ammo cap and a built in suppressor for 5R and 500 nuyen.

It is if you're using flechette. The only downside to that pistol (if memory serves) is that it ONLY fires custom rounds that "are not flechette but are identical to flechette in every respect except they're not flechette."

So any situation where you want a pistol firing flechette basically means you'd love to have the Viper. Any situation where you'd want a different ammo type basically means that the Viper is off the table because it ONLY fires "is but isn't" flechette.

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, that's fucked up. I was pondering a switch to Longarms, but now shotguns seem to be single/short burst only, final destination. So... not much better than a proper AR.

Longarms are a one-trick pony. The only reason to use them is the ability to get a silenced sniping weapon; for any other purpose they are second to fourth best.

On an unrelated note, is the Viper Slivergun the best reason to use pistols an OK pistol? It has... ludicrous damage, a gigantic ammo cap and a built in suppressor for 5R and 500 nuyen.

It has notFlechette already factored in. It actually has weak damage (it got errata'd to 8P/+5 at some point), because you could just take an ordinary heavy pistol and use better ammo like Ex-Ex (or APF, which the Slivergun can't use). The points in its favor are:

Generic burstfire
Silencer

However, it has 0 innate RC and it's not easy to get 5 RC on a pistol; you either need to be consecutive-wielding, or have a source of innate RC.

If you just want a good murdering weapon, the Ruger Thunderbolt is superior 95% of the time.

[Silent Wayfarer]

The Thunderbolt was my second choice after the Slivergun. Cheap internal smartlink and it has built in BF anyway. Gas Vent, Barrel Weight and Personalized Grip to top it off, 5 RC.

So basically, as written Automatics > Pistols > Longarms for general utility? Heavy Weapons shouldn't be counted because they fill a different niche.

[kzt]

Yeah, that's fucked up. I was pondering a switch to Longarms, but now shotguns seem to be single/short burst only, final destination. So... not much better than a proper AR.

Shotguns are pretty much totally worthless in SR4. The guys who wrote the rules both can't write rules for shit and don't understand anything about how a shotgun works.

[UmaroVI]

Yes. Pistols are better than automatics in the niche of very concealable weapons. Heavy Weapons are better than automatics in the niches of unconcealable but really rad weapons and in having OK AE attacks (grenade launchers). Automatics are OK at both. Longarms mostly blow goats but you can get a silenced sniper rifle. Not worth it IMO, since you can get a sound-suppressed battle rifle (which uses Sport Rifle ranges, slightly shorter) or a not-very-silent Gauss Rifle (which has the same range, and is much better at penetrating armor/destroying targets like spirits and vehicles).

[Whipstitch]

I'm not really a fan of the slivergun since it's not as concealable as a holdout--and really, concealment is pretty much the only thing pistols really have setting them apart-- and the AP modifier means that it's bad against drones due to their de facto hardened armor. I'd much rather use a Morrissey Élan loaded with stick and shock as my emergency piece. It can disable light drones for a round or two and carries useful riders against living opponents while the -half AP is particularly nice against spirits. It may not be worth taking much if any points of Pistols for, but if you're a street samurai with 7 Agility or more then defaulting with a smartlink (and perhaps a dab of Edge) can be just enough to punk a beat cop, gang banger or Force 3 and that's frankly all I ask of my pea shooter backup weapons.

As far as Longarms go, I'm not really a fan.* They're just not as flexible as Automatics--you can at least try to hide a machine pistol without your GM bapping your head, at least-- or Heavy Weapons, when it comes right down to it. Seriously: check out the range on machine guns and assault cannons. Cannons aren't great but they can compete in reach and frankly I've personally never needed to hit a target an MMG couldn't reach to begin with and don't really expect to see it happen outside of a GM deciding to spring a straight up sniper duel on me. In most situations I've found that the marginal advantages you get to damage code and range modifiers by using a sniper rifle isn't really much better than what you can get by spraying wide bursts from a White Knight and its generous stock recoil mods and clip size, which is bad new for Longarms given that Heavy Weapons also at least give you a smidge of flexibility by also being the skill that governs grenade launchers. Which, by the way, means that Longarms may not even truly be a clear winner in concealability, either, given that there's a pistol sized "heavy weapon" grenade launcher available, the MGL-6, which likely has concealment modifiers no worse than a Machine Pistol. The nicest thing I can say about longarms is that they're not as ferociously unsubtle, but that's it.

Anyway, as a final aside as a GM I'm a big fan of just rolling things into a guns skill or a sidearms (holdout through machine pistol), longarms (rest of the automatics+longarms), heavy weapons (as RAW) split and a group that covers all three depending on how balky the group is.

*Also, from what I've heard second hand the battle rifles introduced in War! were confirmed as using Automatics in a later supplement despite Automatics already being possessed of an impressive commitment to dakka. Catalyst is pretty derpy.[/i]

[Silent Wayfarer]

I ended up cheesing my Agi to 9 and I have Enhanced Articulation and Smartlinks might help too, so I can prolly roll 11 dice with a smartlinked holdout firing SnS.

I like SnS. Apart from the fact that it gives everything rifle grade damage, it's less than lethal, which is probably good for not pissing the corps off at you. While it won't make them hate me any less, it won't make them hate me any more, which is helpful in avoiding response escalation that runners can't hope to win.

I'm just wondering - can you build ANY machinegun as a Gatling Weapon?

[Stahlseele]

Remember that in SR4 Enhanced Artwinculation isn't nearly as good as it was under SR3, where it deserved that nickname . .

Also: yes, any non HighVelocity Machine-Gun can be made into a Gatling Gun, as far as i understood. Well, as long as it does not need specialty Ammo.
So no Laser-Gatling for you.

[UmaroVI]

There's no actual rules for converting weapons to miniguns, though. I think they meant to have them like they have HV rules, but nope.