D&DNext: Playtest Review

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:14 am

Good point, I totally forgot about the scaling issues. You can circumvent the really big numbers issue with logarithmic damage or a wound system, but 5e is very clearly not doing that.

infected slut princess · Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:22 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote: P.S. I would trust a rulebook to run a campaign better than Mearls. Also, the best part? 4e has rules for running a game without a DM.

Unlike Mearls, you can be assured the rulebook won't pull out its penis out at the table and demand the players suck it.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:41 am

Yup. Even the Exalted: Lunars book will at most just ask for you to quietly ignore the fact that it's playing pocket pool.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:27 am

It looks like the warriors are going to be doing 3-attack combos with cleave extras and damage on a miss at even mid levels, no doubt using those extra attacks for Bo9S type tricks with the 4e module. They don't need that much of a damage boost at that, but the monster hit points getting over 100 for a Troll is still crazy. That should be reserved for the biggest few things in the game. You can have Trolls be a challenge by having 200 Trolls come over the hill when they're still on the RNG.

Who knows, maybe a troll is the biggest thing in the game.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:35 am

So another fun quote from the WotC forums

Polaris, at high levels PCs will still be able to alter the fate of worlds even with bounded accuracy. We can still have a fighter who can make a whirlwind atttack and attack each opponent adjacent to him. Or a Rogue that is invisible and can deal enormous sneak attack damage. Or a spellcaster who can travel through time and space. By the time the PCs get to higher levels they'll have abilities that transform the game itself. They don't need to worry about scaling "to hit" scores and scaling "AC" scores.

That hero will not have to worry about an iron door or a handful of orcs. That would be silly.

Yep, today I learned that using a Whirlwind Attack is literally on the same power level as traveling through time and space.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:49 am

I love these guys. "So, at high levels, the fighter can do what the wizard can do from level 1, and the wizard can rain down death and fire upon a city, topple civilizations with armies of the walking dead, and mess with time! Game balance has been achieved!"

infected slut princess · Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:16 am

tussock wrote:It looks like the warriors are going to be doing 3-attack combos with cleave extras and damage on a miss at even mid levels, no doubt using those extra attacks for Bo9S type tricks with the 4e module. They don't need that much of a damage boost at that, but the monster hit points getting over 100 for a Troll is still crazy. That should be reserved for the biggest few things in the game. You can have Trolls be a challenge by having 200 Trolls come over the hill when they're still on the RNG.

Who knows, maybe a troll is the biggest thing in the game.

Yeah... if minotaurs and trolls have 132 hit points, it makes me really wonder how they will do stuff like great wyrms, the tarrasque, titans, and other mighty huge and strong iconic D&D monsters... they will have to have 10,000 hit points!

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:19 am

infected slut princess wrote:
tussock wrote:It looks like the warriors are going to be doing 3-attack combos with cleave extras and damage on a miss at even mid levels, no doubt using those extra attacks for Bo9S type tricks with the 4e module. They don't need that much of a damage boost at that, but the monster hit points getting over 100 for a Troll is still crazy. That should be reserved for the biggest few things in the game. You can have Trolls be a challenge by having 200 Trolls come over the hill when they're still on the RNG.

Who knows, maybe a troll is the biggest thing in the game.
Yeah... if minotaurs and trolls have 132 hit points, it makes me really wonder how they will do stuff like great wyrms, the tarrasque, titans, and other mighty huge and strong iconic D&D monsters... they will have to have 10,000 hit points!

My guess is (25+20d12)*4 = 412 HP, as a level 20 solo. Give or take 20 hit points.

Trolls only had so much HP because they're apparently level 6 solos.

ModelCitizen · Post by **ModelCitizen** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:25 am

You know, I'm not sure I want to complain about martial vs caster stuff anymore. I don't want to see their attempt at a fighter fix. It would just be "give the fighter more complex ways to do the same shit, and nerf the real classes back to kindergarten." Fighters suck either way, but at least if the game is "unbalanced" you can play something else.

So thank you, fanboys, for proclaiming Whirlwind Attack to be a fair counterpart to Plane Shift.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:28 am

tussock wrote: Who knows, maybe a troll is the biggest thing in the game.

Distressingly possible.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:38 am

Ha ha, 400 hit point solos with a modest damage increase? Good luck getting that one past. People, mostly morons, will accept a 20th level fighter never getting much stronger than a troll, but not one is going to accept four minotaurs handing the tarrasque its ass in hand-to-hand combat. I mean, 4E solo monster vs. solo monster fights were like watching obese sloths wrapped in blankets fighting to the death but at least the long-term outcomes made sense. When people figure out that a titan can't win a fight against three trolls even the Gygax-fellating grognards are going to revolt.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:49 am

They might not have thought of monsters fighting monsters at all - or simply kept the 4E shit of "unless it's attacking a PC stats do not exist for monsters".

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:57 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:When people figure out that a titan can't win a fight against three trolls even the Gygax-fellating grognards are going to revolt.

... except they never will.

Do not underestimate the power of denial.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:52 am

Didn't they JUST LEARN this shit? They massively improved their solo design from the 4E MM to the MV, and now they're throwing out that progress?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:34 am

I just realised they're never going to let me spend my treasure on a cohort of twenty archers. With no scaling in armour class, they'll either need a damage vs DR scale, or numbers are better than levels.

I guess they'll take care of that with fear effects that hit everyone with less that 20 hit points, no save, line of sight radius. At least for Dragons.

Wulf · Post by **Wulf** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:21 am

I have no need for my fighter to get "stronger" then a troll in muscle power (STR modifier), but I do like him to be more skilled then a troll. My high level fighter should "dance" pass the blows of a troll, to climb-step on the body of that troll and drive his blade through the eyesocket into the brain of his foe, killing it in a fountain of crimson...only to jump off the newly made corpse as it tumbles toward the ground, to jump-attack the next troll in line....all in one turn if possible

And I can not do that with 5th edition

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Isn't this the power level that Heroquest n' Mordheim were made for?

Maybe it's the advantage/disadvantage rerolls that make me think of warhammer.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:22 pm

Wulf wrote:I have no need for my fighter to get "stronger" then a troll in muscle power (STR modifier), but I do like him to be more skilled then a troll. My high level fighter should "dance" pass the blows of a troll, to climb-step on the body of that troll and drive his blade through the eyesocket into the brain of his foe, killing it in a fountain of crimson...only to jump off the newly made corpse as it tumbles toward the ground, to jump-attack the next troll in line....all in one turn if possible

And I can not do that with 5th edition

Sure you can! Just beg your DM to let you make the attempt in the first place, hope he pulls a DC out of his ass that is actually achievable, pray he doesn't make you roll for each individual action, and sweat about whether he remembers to include the houserule he's been using for attacks of opportunity!

Then, when it comes time to roll damage and you don't even shave off 1/10 of it's HP, the DM will simply say, "What? I'm just following the rules!"

D&D: 5e. Because fuck you.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:30 pm

Wulf wrote:I have no need for my fighter to get "stronger" then a troll in muscle power (STR modifier), but I do like him to be more skilled then a troll. My high level fighter should "dance" pass the blows of a troll, to climb-step on the body of that troll and drive his blade through the eyesocket into the brain of his foe, killing it in a fountain of crimson...only to jump off the newly made corpse as it tumbles toward the ground, to jump-attack the next troll in line....all in one turn if possible

And I can not do that with D&D

There, I fixed a critical misspelling in your post. I hope this helps!

You know, D&D Next is shaping up to become quite an extravaganza of failure on its own merits, you don't need to point the finger to a problem that's endemic to D&D.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:13 pm

nockermensch wrote:
Wulf wrote:I have no need for my fighter to get "stronger" then a troll in muscle power (STR modifier), but I do like him to be more skilled then a troll. My high level fighter should "dance" pass the blows of a troll, to climb-step on the body of that troll and drive his blade through the eyesocket into the brain of his foe, killing it in a fountain of crimson...only to jump off the newly made corpse as it tumbles toward the ground, to jump-attack the next troll in line....all in one turn if possible

And I can not do that with D&D
There, I fixed a critical misspelling in your post. I hope this helps!

You know, D&D Next is shaping up to become quite an extravaganza of failure on its own merits, you don't need to point the finger to a problem that's endemic to D&D.

Really?

In 2nd edition high level Fighters got multiple attacks and there were no attacks of opportunity, plus no restriction on moving after attacking, so that scenario is perfectly feasible.

In 3e it sounded like a Charge into a Cleave attack to me.

I can't speak for 4e but that is perfectly reasonable in at least 2 previous major editions of D&D. Let's not get too hung up on the "Fighters suck" meme, they can at least kill enemies below their level fairly efficiently...

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:21 pm

Well, yeah, but so can every caster ever....that's not really an issue.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:53 pm

What does it take for a 3.5 Fighter to be able to one-hit-kill a Troll like you're describing? A CR5 troll is 6d8+36 (63) HP and a CR11 troll with Ranger levels is 6d8+6d8+72 (130) HP. What does it take for a Fighter to be able to one-shot them with a Charge?

In any case, walking back your claim to the Fighter being able to take out lower-level opponents with ease is a little goalpost-shifty. In the original post, you made it out like the troll is still a big strong tough guy, just less skilled at combat than the Fighter. If you walk that back to the troll being low-level with crud HP, then who cares that the Fighter can do that shit? In 4e you one-shot minions but nobody gives a fuck.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:02 pm

John Magnum wrote:In any case, walking back your claim to the Fighter being able to take out lower-level opponents with ease is a little goalpost-shifty.

Wulf wrote:My high level fighter should "dance" pass the blows of a troll, to climb-step on the body of that troll and drive his blade through the eyesocket into the brain of his foe, killing it in a fountain of crimson...

Emphasis mine. We're not talking about an equal-level Fighter one-shotting a Troll (although that may be possible), but rather a higher-level Fighter doing so.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:02 pm

It's probably fair to assume that you're not one-shot-killing opponents that have a CR equal or lower than your level. If you're a higher level, you may have a chance.

Let's look at an 11th level fighter. He's using a +1 weapon that deals 1d10 base damage, 2-handed with a Strength bonus of +8 (+12). He also has weapon specialization because why not? He has a weapon that does +2d6 energy damage with every hit, with another +2d10 on a crit. Crit damage is x3. On a critical hit he will do 3d10+45+2d6+2d10. The average damage is 79 damage.

If he were mounted on a horse using a lance and had the appropriate feats, the damage would be insane.

Clearly, the example shows that it isn't going to be a common event, but it at least IS in the realm of possiblity.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:12 pm

Okay. So our eleventh-level Fighter can probably one-shot a CR5 troll if he gets a crit. He'd do way better if he managed to charge on a horse with a lance, but obviously mounted combat is an invitation to be boned in D&D.

That still seems like a pretty far cry from what Wulf was talking about. But maybe I'm just a pessimistic pud.