[Dom3]Yet another EA game

Drago0661 · Post by **Drago0661** » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:56 pm

Well that's just great.

Arcane Nexus is Dispelled by Ryleh (I'm assuming). Okay, seriously how does Dispel actually work?

Sauromanta attacks and breaks the NAP-3 for a good reason, but that reason no longer matters. :/

And my only Ally goes AI.

*sigh*

So I guess its 3v1 now against me?

Not sure how i can take on Sauromantia with my late game set back. He's got some pimped out Tartarians.

Well while I'm here I might as well talk about what happened mid game.

So basically while Lanka was tearing into Abysia. Absyia sent me like 40 astral gems and basically said "here are some astral pearls go mess up Lanka for me". So I made some gear for my eagle kings and went raiding.

But now i can't even get past Lanka's legions of undead to storm a fort. Even with Crumble I can't make a dent. It's because ghouls and Lanka's undead aren't mindless (the part where their siege/defense scores are only 10% of what it normally would be), and since they're undead they don't worry about supplies either.

Its a pretty strong defence, and pretty frustrating as well lol. Any ideas how to get past this?

My initial thought was something like purgatory/wrath of god. but I'm not sure that would do enough damage in one turn to kill them before they would just heal. I don't think throwing more troops at it would solve it either as he can just summon more while being sieged.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:29 am

Drago wrote:Arcane Nexus is Dispelled by Ryleh (I'm assuming). Okay, seriously how does Dispel actually work?

Woot, go R'lyeh!

Dispel is mostly based off extra gems: the more extra gems you put into the nexus, the harder it is to dispel. The more extra gems you put into the dispel, the more likely you are to succeed. Arcane nexus has a base cost of, what, 160? Dispel has a base cost of 60. So you're at a natural disadvantage in terms of putting and keeping it up, unless arcane nexus throws you enough gems to cover the gap in the time it is up (which it very well might).

Drago wrote: Not sure how i can take on Sauromantia with my late game set back. He's got some pimped out Tartarians.

Less than you think: I'm actually semi-low on nature gems, which are necessary to gift of reason good tarts. But most of the tarts I've been getting are either monstrous or feeble-minded, so gift-of-reasoning them hardly seems worth it anyway.

Also, yes: this is Sauromatia publicly asking for nature gems. We'll trade death.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:37 am

We had nature gems but, um, we kinda spent them.

Drago0661 · Post by **Drago0661** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:53 am

Ah ok,

Well for educational purposes I think I'll share some numbers.

Arcane Nexus has a base cost of 150 gems. I put an extra 10 into it because that's how much astral spare I had after alchemizing most of my gems.

Dispel has a base cost of 30. It would be interesting to see how many gems Ryleh used to dispel Arcane Nexus.

In previous turns I tried dispelling Mother Oak from Lanka, I put a total of 48 astral into that dispel. Mother Oak costs a base of 50. So it would also be interesting to see how many extra gems Lanka put into that.

I'm just trying to learn more about Dispel, so I can put it to better use in future.

and Arcane Nexus only gave me like 21 gems after the turn i cast it (this is without me spending many gems at all, as I alchemized most of them), so not as many as I hoped, kinda makes me think if it is worth it in a small player game.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:07 am

Dispels: Globals have a strength measured in # of gems. That strength is equal to the extra gems you put in (so total gems minus base cost) plus a bonus for how much the caster's path level exceeds the requirements, I have heard that paths from boosters don't count, equal to 5 times the extra paths. Dispel works the same way, except you are more likely to get the path bonus because while globals generally need 5 or more in a path, dispel takes only 3 astral to cast. Dispel is quite good at taking down minimum strength globals because of that. However, unless you seriously want a global to go down and you don't have the paths to cast it (or can't handle the diplomatic fallout) overwriting is better roughly 100% of the time.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:14 am

Drago wrote:and Arcane Nexus only gave me like 21 gems after the turn i cast it (this is without me spending many gems at all, as I alchemized most of them), so not as many as I hoped, kinda makes me think if it is worth it in a small player game.

You're supposed to blow a lot of gems on the turn you put up the nexus and really, every turn until it's dispelled. Alchemizing spare gems into it is kind of the opposite of what you should do.

But yeah, let's look at some math and assume gem expenditure is at equilibrium (spent as they're acquired):
*Note, Arcane Nexus's text is wrong, I believe, and it actually gets 1/4th gems. Pretend it "converts" them to astral as they're received, halving it again.
Sauromatia: 64
Abysia: 13
Caelum: 93
R'lyeh: 38
Lanka: 31

Your best case scenario was ~60 astral pearls a turn. Some fraction of those will be astral (R'lyeh's, mostly, I think, and some of your's), so less than 60. Paid for itself in ~3 turns, paid for itself and a wish in ~5 turns, and another wish every ~2 turns after that.

Would have been better with a bigger map, obviously.

Drago0661 · Post by **Drago0661** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:37 am

Well what i mean by alchemized, was that I needed it up sooner rather than later due to your tartartians, so I alchemized gems into astral to get 160 astral total. I guess I could have waited? I was just scared, I didn't want to give you too much of a lead in progressing your late game.

Yea I was aware it was only a 1/4 of non astral gems spent.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:50 am

Drago wrote:Well what i mean by alchemized, was that I needed it up sooner rather than later due to your tartartians, so I alchemized gems into astral to get 160 astral total. I guess I could have waited? I was just scared, I didn't want to give you too much of a lead in progressing your late game.

Well, yeah, but my point is: every gem you alchemized was one less gem you could have spent in a ritual or forging an item. Every gem you spent on a ritual or item would have come back to you as 1/4th an astral pearl. And you represent about 1/3rd of the gem production on the map, so 1/3rd of the maximum potential of arcane nexus would be coming from you and your own gems. Alchemizing gems to cast arcane nexus just means you're that much less likely to pay it off.

If you hadn't scared the world with potential wish-spam, I still had an NAP-3 to go through. Plenty of time to save up for a big nexus and a big splerge turn.

Though, I wonder how many seraphs you have... was the nexus the first priority, or did you get a few up for backup that you're just hiding? How quickly can you get them out now? I suppose I'll just have to find out.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:00 pm

Drago, if you have access to Air magic you can spam call of the winds. Flyers get a ridiculous bonus to siege effectiveness, so a stack of hawks can pull walls down really fast.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:17 am

I lost a thug this turn. Ghost wolf spam is annoying against thugs and SC's. What's a good solution to that, I wonder?

K · Post by K » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:19 am

DSMatticus wrote:I lost a thug this turn. Ghost wolf spam is annoying against thugs and SC's. What's a good solution to that, I wonder?

Eye of the Void? Something like Fire Shield?

Drago0661 · Post by **Drago0661** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:28 am

Ok basically I want to open up a discussion about SC vs SC warfare.

So Sauromantia has a pimp Tartarian:

Details: fear 5, immunity to lightning, fire, cold, poison, reinvig 3, regen 17hp.

Now i'm being open about this so I (and others) can learn from this.

My initial thoughts are trying to fatique it out with axes of hate (quickened and probably only with 1 axe and a shield). But that would need a good chasis to stand a chance. Or will Eagle Kings be enough (and what equipment would they need to stand a chance if that's the case)? any other ideas?

2nd are thug warfare. Banelords with frostbrand, vine shield and ring of tamed lightning and ring of regeneration. I have a few ideas, but they aren't exactly gem efficient. Thoughts?

I'm bascially just after advice on SC warfare, since in this game, i'm the guy who will will be responding to threats in this game of counters.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:01 am

Is axe of hate the one that causes chest wounds? Because I'm pretty sure that won't do anything to a Tartarian on account of the whole undead thing. (well, it will cause it to take more fatigue from spellcasting, I think?)

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:29 am

Drago0661 wrote:Ok basically I want to open up a discussion about SC vs SC warfare.

So Sauromantia has a pimp Tartarian:

Details: fear 5, immunity to lightning, fire, cold, poison, reinvig 3, regen 17hp.

Now i'm being open about this so I (and others) can learn from this.

My initial thoughts are trying to fatique it out with axes of hate (quickened and probably only with 1 axe and a shield). But that would need a good chasis to stand a chance. Or will Eagle Kings be enough (and what equipment would they need to stand a chance if that's the case)? any other ideas?

2nd are thug warfare. Banelords with frostbrand, vine shield and ring of tamed lightning and ring of regeneration. I have a few ideas, but they aren't exactly gem efficient. Thoughts?

I'm bascially just after advice on SC warfare, since in this game, i'm the guy who will will be responding to threats in this game of counters.

The counter against an SC is not necessarily another SC. In this case I'm honestly tempted to use a bunch of scouts holding Flambleus (Holy damage x2 against undead by casting Holy Pyre) and wearing boots of quickness + an accuracy booster, supported by chaff to keep the SC busy.

For the chaff, you might ironically want to use either undead (which aren't really affected by frost brand but will suffer losses to your Holy Pyres) spammed by Death casters, or Mechanical men - both of which shrug at the Fear Aura.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:44 am

@Orion, that's the flesh eater. The axe of hate causes fatigue. Putting fatigue directly onto an undead should work as well as anything else.

@Drago I'm really not actually sure what can and cannot kill my SC's and thugs; this is as much an experiment for me as it is you. Thankfully, I can mass produce them easily enough. But yes, I imagine she will die to dedicated counters quite easily. I only really have her because I went to artifacts for the +3D sceptre to make tarts and I snatched as many artis as I could while I was there. So she is pimped out. My main strategy is mass-producing lightly-equipped ones, which is annoying because the more I get the more disobedience I have to deal with. Friggin' tartarians.

In all honesty, I should really support her with some back-up. And I probably will. And the same is true of all my thugs and SC's. It's really just not smart to send them all out alone.

K · Post by K » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:23 am

As this stage in the game, you should have all kinds of crazy crap to toss around because you've had a giant territory and no enemies.

Cloud Trapeze in a Seraph to cast Petrify (it kills on a failed save and paralyzes on a successful save). Add in a few SC seraphs to knock his HPs down and deal with any PD he added.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:43 am

I haven't actually seen any Seraphs yet. How about you? I'm sure he has or will have some soon, even if I haven't seen them. But a tartarian costs 10 death gems, and a seraph costs 100 pearls.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:59 pm

Two Banelord with high def, quickness, and two duskdaggers would work. For anti-SC work you want two weapons not a weapon and a shield. Axe of Hate has on hit fatigue so bringing one or two along is a pretty decent idea. Mind hunt with penetration boosters could work given the somewhat low MR. You would need to fully pimp out the penetration though.

@ K: Seraphs can't cast petrify, it needs earth and seraphs have fire, air, and astral.

K · Post by K » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:14 am

DSMatticus wrote:I haven't actually seen any Seraphs yet. How about you? I'm sure he has or will have some soon, even if I haven't seen them. But a tartarian costs 10 death gems, and a seraph costs 100 pearls.

I meant Eagle Kings. They get Earth, can be handed enough items to boost to the Petrify level, and he's got a ton of them.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:45 am

Yeah, Petrify does work very well for anti-SC work. I'd generally suggest a Summon earthpower before petrifying though as it's a high fatigue spell and every reduction helps.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:48 am

? Petrify is earth five. Eagle kings have E1. That's doable, but it's not cheaply massable and it's a heavy investment.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:59 am

DSMatticus wrote:? Petrify is earth five. Eagle kings have E1. That's doable, but it's not cheaply massable and it's a heavy investment.

Oh, shit, sorry. Didn't realize these guys only had E1 >_>.

It's doable if you have Bloodstones. Earth boots + Blood Stone = E3. Then pump with summon Earthpower to E4. Then spend a gem to make it to E5.

I'm way too used to powers with at least E2 or 3 >_>.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:23 am

1 in 40 have E2, and there's also rings of wizardry and the con6 4-element boosters that require A4E4 or F4W4, but those are all super expensive.

K · Post by K » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:44 am

DSMatticus wrote:1 in 40 have E2, and there's also rings of wizardry and the con6 4-element boosters that require A4E4 or F4W4, but those are all super expensive.

If you want to kill something made out of 100 gems of equipment, you should expect to spend at least as much as a general rule.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:02 am

K wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:1 in 40 have E2, and there's also rings of wizardry and the con6 4-element boosters that require A4E4 or F4W4, but those are all super expensive.
If you want to kill something made out of 100 gems of equipment, you should expect to spend at least as much as a general rule.

Personally, this is why I prefer the Flambleu + Boots of Quickening method. At about 25 gems cost (less with hammers) you can get 4 of these guys spamming 8 Holy Pyres a turn, which is theoretically enough to kill a Tart in 2 rounds of combat. Plus, those 4 guys can still smash undead army groups.