Did Bo9S's popularity doom 4th Edition D&D?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So what are the guidelines of multiclassing with Martial Adepts?

Multiclass into a martial adept class as late as possible, especially if you're talking your first level of a martial adept class.

[Fuchs]

One of our favorites is Swooping Dragon Strike - good damage and a stun with a save dc of your jump check.

[OgreBattle]

Some criticisms of 4e are that you shoot off your encounter powers first then at-will spam or 'five moves of doom'

How does Bo9S avoid these pitfalls, if it does? I look at the maneuvers and...
- Swordsage has to blow everything
- OK, Crusader is random so it gets around that
- Warblade picks X moves, does them, then recharges them to do them again

it seems like the same problems of 4e would come up, but Bo9S is well received here

[Omegonthesane]

I would assume this is due to Book of 9 Swords having at least some moves that aren't total shit, combined with having much less to live up to as a mere sourcebook rather than an entire edition. Sort of like how Pathfinder is less well received than 3.5 despite not being a whole lot worse as a product in the abstract, because they failed to improve on 3.5 and the process by which they failed was itself made of fail in ways that have been explained elsewhere.

[Wrathzog]

Some criticisms of 4e are that you shoot off your encounter powers first then at-will spam or 'five moves of doom'

How does Bo9S avoid these pitfalls, if it does? I look at the maneuvers and...
- Swordsage has to blow everything
- OK, Crusader is random so it gets around that
- Warblade picks X moves, does them, then recharges them to do them again

it seems like the same problems of 4e would come up, but Bo9S is well received here

It basically all comes down to relativity. Like Omegon brought up, The Tome of Battle is just one book out of the entire 3.5 lineup. Part of the reason why they look so pretty is because they were standing next to The Fighter (an ugly turd).

Another factor is that they can recover maneuvers at all. There are no Daily or Encounter maneuvers, they're just maneuvers and you can use them as many times as you're willing to recover them in the middle of a fight. It's definitely better than being reduced to at-will spam once you run out of your fun powers.

[Red_Rob]

Another factor is that they can recover maneuvers at all. There are no Daily or Encounter maneuvers, they're just maneuvers and you can use them as many times as you're willing to recover them in the middle of a fight. It's definitely better than being reduced to at-will spam once you run out of your fun powers.

Yeah, the problem with the 4e paradigm was that Daily > Encounter > At will, so because of Critical Existence Failure you would always want to use your powers in the same set order each fight. With Bo9S maneuvers being refreshable you can vary your power use according to the fight - churning through all of them if needed or refreshing a few key ones appropriate to the enemy. Refreshing preventing you from using a maneuver that turn meant there was some tension in choosing when to refresh. Do you use a slightly substandard maneuver, or refresh your best ones for the future but only get a standard attack this turn?

[Lago PARANOIA]

How does Bo9S avoid these pitfalls, if it does? I look at the maneuvers and...
- Swordsage has to blow everything
- OK, Crusader is random so it gets around that
- Warblade picks X moves, does them, then recharges them to do them again

I won't stick up for the Swordsage, because they work exactly in that obnoxious way that 4E rangers do. Crusader, same deal. You either use a maneuver when it comes up or you don't. It's less deterministic than the Swordsage, but there's no particular strategy or resource conservation involved

The Warblade, however, actually works very well. I've said before, the Warblade has the best spell charge system I've seen. As Red Rob said: "Do you use a slightly substandard maneuver, or do you refresh your best ones for the future but only get a standard attack this turn?" Considering that Warblades also have access to defensive maneuvers, this is a real and deep choice.

Of course it slightly goes out the window if you do Bo9S cheese where you put most of your levels in Warblade and then take a level of Swordsage or Crusader later on -- then use that as a backup maneuver engine.

[NineInchNall]

Crusader, same deal. You either use a maneuver when it comes up or you don't. It's less deterministic than the Swordsage, but there's no particular strategy or resource conservation involved

Actually, there is something of a tactical resource conservation mini-game for the Crusader. You know how many turns you have until you'd draw from an empty library, so you choose which maneuver you use this turn based on whether you'll have to reset at the end of turn or not. Also, because of the nature of the granting mechanic, you know which maneuvers are coming up - or when you have one coming up, exactly what it is - so you make tactical choices based on probabilities.

Now, you can argue that this is not a deep decision tree, but flat denying that it exists is a bit of hyperbole.

[Whipstitch]

Another factor is that they can recover maneuvers at all. There are no Daily or Encounter maneuvers, they're just maneuvers and you can use them as many times as you're willing to recover them in the middle of a fight. It's definitely better than being reduced to at-will spam once you run out of your fun powers.

That, and a lot of these maneuvers are noteworthy for being some combination of providing maneuverability or bad touching the action economy rather than winning on pure damage; iterative attacks still exist and can still matter so getting to lay down a "vanilla" Full Attack is something that you may actively work for rather than just signifying that the battle has already been decided and how everyone's just grinding the sumos down.

[Duke Flauros]

That, and a lot of these maneuvers are noteworthy for being some combination of providing maneuverability or bad touching the action economy rather than winning on pure damage; iterative attacks still exist and can still matter so getting to lay down a "vanilla" Full Attack is something that you may actively work for rather than just signifying that the battle has already been decided and how everyone's just grinding the sumos down.

Also, the relative power level of the maneuvers is pretty imbalanced; hydra slaying strike is fairly useless, whereas iron heart surge, a move you get eight or so levels earlier, is one of the best abilities in the game. Tornado throw, a 17th level ability, allows you to deal 2d6 damage to several enemies in return for provoking an AOO; white raven tactics, a fifth level ability, allows you to grant an ally an extra turn. Mountain tombstone, a 17th level ability, allows you to deal 2d6 con damage on a single attack; flanking maneuver, a ninth level ability, combined with the feat clarion commander, a sixth level ability, allows you to give every ally adjacent to an enemy an extra attack against that target.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

To respond to the OP:

Bo9S didn't doom 4E. 4E doomed 4E.

The power level of Bo9S powers wasn't quite up to the level of casters because the designers still didn't really understand or want to understand what casters were capable of. They were still going off of the paradigm that casters were cool a few times a day but the fact that these Martial Adepts could replenish their powers meant that they were on par longevity-wise.

4E could have used Bo9S as a base and properly upped the power of the martial adepts to the casters in a new attempt at balance. The fact that they were incompetent is not an indication that Bo9S was a step in the wrong direction. To the contrary, Bo9S made being a "fighter" more interesting and should be celebrated, not condemned.

[Previn]

Tornado throw, a 17th level ability, allows you to deal 2d6 damage to several enemies in return for provoking an AOO

Uh, I think you need to completely recheck Tornado Throw. If you have a 60' movement, you can throw a single target 10' 11 times, and then catapult them around 90' for a total of 40d6. And that's basically completely unoptimized. If you hit 120' base movement which shouldn't be remotely hard at 17th, you're going to pull... 46d6 for the first 23 throws, and then fling your target around 150' for another 30d6, or 76d6 total, and short of the last throw, you can do this in an area of 20' and that's only optimizing for speed, not the actual bonuses to throwing or the throwing itself.

[OgreBattle]

How does the Warblade compare to the Den created classes?

Tome Fighter, Tome Monk, Tome Samurai, the Soldier, and so on.

not just in terms of raw power, but in comparing the systems/subsystems they use to give fightguys the 'nice things', which ones are more 'fun'?

[Duke Flauros]

Uh, I think you need to completely recheck Tornado Throw. If you have a 60' movement, you can throw a single target 10' 11 times, and then catapult them around 90' for a total of 40d6. And that's basically completely unoptimized. If you hit 120' base movement which shouldn't be remotely hard at 17th, you're going to pull... 46d6 for the first 23 throws, and then fling your target around 150' for another 30d6, or 76d6 total, and short of the last throw, you can do this in an area of 20' and that's only optimizing for speed, not the actual bonuses to throwing or the throwing itself.

It does allow you to tekken juggle enemies to death, but by that time,
A)Many characters have immediate actions that can put a stop to any movement.
B)A well- optimized spellcaster will be able to DNS any enemy from several hundred feet away.

It does deal a ton of damage to characters in melee- but you probably won't survive to get to the front lines.

[Previn]

Uh, I think you need to completely recheck Tornado Throw. If you have a 60' movement, you can throw a single target 10' 11 times, and then catapult them around 90' for a total of 40d6. And that's basically completely unoptimized. If you hit 120' base movement which shouldn't be remotely hard at 17th, you're going to pull... 46d6 for the first 23 throws, and then fling your target around 150' for another 30d6, or 76d6 total, and short of the last throw, you can do this in an area of 20' and that's only optimizing for speed, not the actual bonuses to throwing or the throwing itself.

It does allow you to tekken juggle enemies to death, but by that time,
A)Many characters have immediate actions that can put a stop to any movement.
B)A well- optimized spellcaster will be able to DNS any enemy from several hundred feet away.

It does deal a ton of damage to characters in melee- but you probably won't survive to get to the front lines.

First, you were comparing the power of maneuvers to other maneuvers and tossed out Tornado Throw as bad because you had no idea what it actually did or how it worked. I pointed out why that was wrong. If you think Iron Heart surge is actually that awesome, you're using the pants on head retarded Customer Service version, and not the common sense version. Hyrda Slaying Strike isn't super-awesome, but it's a decent choice since you prevent the full attack in addition to doing your regular damage. Now, Salamander Charge is an example of a bad maneuver at that level.

Second, there aren't enough abilities to stop movement that it is remotely common, I'd like to see you list 5 that a ring of free action doesn't stop.

Third, you said the ability does 2d6 damage to some guys but the damage you do is based on the distance you throw them with 2d6 being the base damage for a successful throw. With a high check you can toss out more damage without any extra effort, heck simply a good roll can increase the damage up to 6d6 for the starting throw.

Finally, if you've moving 120' a round (from a base speed of 60'), that's further than most encounter ranges start at as per the DMG, in fact it's further than the first range increment of a longbow. If you actually focused on movement, let's say with a Xeph, Speed of Thought feat, Boots of Striding and Springing, and an item with Footsteps of the Divine, you can hit 30' base +10 feat +10 item +30 racial +40 or 120'. That's 240' with Tornado Throw, if you slap in a Shadow Jaunt, that's 310', which is several hundred feat of movement, more so than you're likely to need.

Now, if you really trick it up, you can go with the persistent Footsteps of the Divine, and blow the remaining duration for 10' for every round left. That's going to give you, with a conservative 8 hours left, +48,000' to your movement for the round.

Basically I wouldn't trust your conclusions about the ToB as far as I could throw them since you don't know the actual abilities, nor the how and why of combat at the points you're getting them.

[Duke Flauros]

First, you were comparing the power of maneuvers to other maneuvers and tossed out Tornado Throw as bad because you had no idea what it actually did or how it worked. I pointed out why that was wrong.

-I have the book right here in front of me.

If you think Iron Heart surge is actually that awesome, you're using the pants on head retarded
Customer Service version, and not the common sense version.

-This can end all sorts of problems that you aren’t prepared for. If your idea of “common sense” is “nerfed into uselessness” then you are correct.

Hyrda Slaying Strike isn't super-awesome, but it's a decent choice since you prevent the full attack in addition to doing your regular damage.

-It’s useless. There are so many other things an enemy can do- cast a DNS, trip, move away, etc. It only takes one option out of their arsenal. It doesn’t even stop hydras, as they make all of their attacks as a standard action.

Now, Salamander Charge is an example of a bad maneuver at that level.

-It allows a charge build to bypass some terrain which would otherwise stop it. Combined with perfect flight at a decent speed, you can ambush enemies who are a decent distance away.

Second, there aren't enough abilities to stop movement that it is remotely common, I'd like to see you list 5 that a ring of free action doesn't stop.

-Oh let’s see: forcecage, prismatic wall/sphere, wall of iron, tsunami, obedient avalanche, wall of force, minor/major/true creation (used creatively), sleep, telekinetic sphere, irresistible dance, PAO, whirlwind, etc. The list goes on and on. This also assumes that
A) You have a ring of freedom of movement
B) It won’t get dispelled
Freedom of movement only stops abilities that directly stop your movement. It won’t stop abilities that stop your movement for another reason- or are you going to argue that it allows you to move while asleep/dead/petrified?

Third, you said the ability does 2d6 damage to some guys but the damage you do is based on the distance you throw them with 2d6 being the base damage for a successful throw. With a high check you can toss out more damage without any extra effort, heck simply a good roll can increase the damage up to 6d6 for the starting throw.

-It allows you to brutally murder a wizard's summons/henchmen, fail to toss a projected image, and then get trapped in a telekinetic sphere.

Finally, if you've moving 120' a round (from a base speed of 60'), that's further than most encounter ranges start at as per the DMG, in fact it's further than the first range increment of a longbow. If you actually focused on movement, let's say with a Xeph, Speed of Thought feat, Boots of Striding and Springing, and an item with Footsteps of the Divine, you can hit 30' base +10 feat +10 item +30 racial +40 or 120'. That's 240' with Tornado Throw, if you slap in a Shadow Jaunt, that's 310', which is several hundred feat of movement, more so than you're likely to need.
Now, if you really trick it up, you can go with the persistent Footsteps of the Divine, and blow the remaining duration for 10' for every round left. That's going to give you, with a conservative 8 hours left, +48,000' to your movement for the round.

-That’s theoretical optimization. It, like Pun-Pun, the hulking hurler, and the infinite damage loops, won’t practically be used, except as a joke. Just because the evangelist can be used to make a diplomancer build, does not make it a good class in an actual game. This combo also requires dumpster diving.

[Previn]

Skipping the first bits because you so obviously wrong on them it's not even worth the time to refute them.

-It’s useless. There are so many other things an enemy can do- cast a DNS, trip, move away, etc. It only takes one option out of their arsenal. It doesn’t even stop hydras, as they make all of their attacks as a standard action.

It's not useless, the whole point is that it's defensive, and forces your opponent into something my may not be good at (trip) or may not even be able to do (cast something) or do something like run away. You can't see the value in it because you apparently are a terrible D&D player, if you have any real experience with it at all. I mean you'd have to be a total idiot to use it on a spell caster.

Now, Salamander Charge is an example of a bad maneuver at that level.

-It allows a charge build to bypass some terrain which would otherwise stop it. Combined with perfect flight at a decent speed, you can ambush enemies who are a decent distance away.

If you have flight, you don't worry about the terrain, and by the time you hit 14th level to pick up the maneuver, you should have flight already. It doesn't increase your speed so you're not ambushing anything you couldn't already, and the damage is a non-issue assuming things aren't outright immune to the paltry fire damage it puts out.

Second, there aren't enough abilities to stop movement that it is remotely common, I'd like to see you list 5 that a ring of free action doesn't stop.

-Oh let’s see: forcecage, prismatic wall/sphere, wall of iron, tsunami, obedient avalanche, wall of force, minor/major/true creation (used creatively), sleep, telekinetic sphere, irresistible dance, PAO, whirlwind, etc. The list goes on and on. This also assumes that

None of those stop someone who is doing a Tornado Throw. They can prevent it before hand, maybe as a 1 in a hundred chance, but none of those stop a Tornado Throw. In fact let's go by these one at a time:
Forcecage : Shadow Jaunt.
Prismatic Wall/Sphere : The wall is a non-issue Shadow Jaunt, the sphere they can move through.
Wall of Iron : Shadow Jaunt.
Wall of Force : Shadow Jaunt.
Creation spells: Shadow Jaunt even though the range is 0 feet so unless you concooning yourself it's not going to be helpful.
Spell: We have 17 freaking HD since we have to be 17th level to take the maneuver. We're immune to sleep by default.
Telekinetic Sphere : Shadow Jaunt, it's also a close range.
Irresistible Dance : Sure, but it's TOUCH range.
POA: Close range, but could do it.
Tsunami / Obediant Avalanche : I don't even know where those are from, I really don't care either.

Every single thing you listed relies on going before the dude doing the Tornado Throw. None of them actually stop movement except for the dance. That you seem to think close range, 0 range and touch spells are 'hundreds of feet away' boggles my mind. You clearly don't get why 3.5 is called rocket launcher tag.

Seriously, you cited Sleep against a 17th level character.

A ring of free action is in the PHB and such an amazingly good buy you should have it since it negates grappling. Which is one of the 4 ways I can think of to actually stop someone using a Tornado Throw if they don't have said item.

Third, you said the ability does 2d6 damage to some guys but the damage you do is based on the distance you throw them with 2d6 being the base damage for a successful throw. With a high check you can toss out more damage without any extra effort, heck simply a good roll can increase the damage up to 6d6 for the starting throw.

-It allows you to brutally murder a wizard's summons/henchmen, fail to toss a projected image, and then get trapped in a telekinetic sphere.

I'm starting to suspect you've never actually played 3.5. This is a maneuver you've going to have at 17th level. You ignore the henchmen, don't care if you toss an image (which you shouldn't get tricked by anyways) because you can keep moving and should be able to toss and kill your target before they get an action off, because all of your movement to them, regardless of how many other things you throw, add to your final throw check. And since Telekinetic Sphere is a close range spell, you're ripe for the picking.

-That’s theoretical optimization. It, like Pun-Pun, the hulking hurler, and the infinite damage loops, won’t practically be used, except as a joke. Just because the evangelist can be used to make a diplomancer build, does not make it a good class in an actual game. This combo also requires dumpster diving.

It requires The PHB, ExPsi and Complete Champion (or really, just the SRD and Complete Champion). That's hardly dumpster diving. Even without persistant spell it has the ability to cover almost 1000' feet in a turn. Heck, PHB only you can get a Polymorphed into a Giant Eagle, get an Expeditious Retreat item and you've got a base movement of 110' which comes out to 220' on the Tornado Throw alone and 270' with the Shadow Jaunt.

Face it, you've got nothing and clearly aren't knowledgeable enough to be speaking on this subject.

[Kaelik]

I don't have my book right now, but I'm pretty sure the way this works is that:

Tornado throw is a full round action maneuver.
Shadow Jaunt is a swift round action.
You cannot take a swift action in the middle of a full round action.

So what happens is that someone readies an action to cast Wall of Stone/Force/ect.

You begin the Tornado Throw, move 5ft, then the readied action goes off and blocks your ability to reach them.

You finish your full round action, having not actually thrown anyone, then take a swift action to teleport to the other side of the wall. Then it's their turn again, and you have to recharge before you can Tornado Throw.

So yes, all those things you think you can shadow jaunt past? You can only do that if you shadow jaunt before you begin your Tornado Throw, so they could totally cock block your face.

[Duke Flauros]

It's not useless, the whole point is that it's defensive, and forces your opponent into something my may not be good at (trip) or may not even be able to do (cast something) or do something like run away. You can't see the value in it because you apparently are a terrible D&D player, if you have any real experience with it at all. I mean you'd have to be a total idiot to use it on a spell caster.

Until tome, the only decent full attackers at level 13 were either spiked chain nuts, charging pouncers, or dual-wield sneak attackers. All of these characters could do more than “full attack.” In any of these cases, the characters could do more than full attack.

If you have flight, you don't worry about the terrain, and by the time you hit 14th level to pick up the maneuver, you should have flight already. It doesn't increase your speed so you're not ambushing anything you couldn't already, and the damage is a non-issue assuming things aren't outright immune to the paltry fire damage it puts out.

It lets you change direction mid-charge and bypass enemies. Granted, the fire damage is pathetic, but you can get around enemy bodyguards to get to a trickily positioned enemy with this. It may not be the best ability for its level, but that doesn't mean that it is useless.

Forcecage : Shadow Jaunt.
Prismatic Wall/Sphere : The wall is a non-issue Shadow Jaunt, the sphere they can move through.
Wall of Iron : Shadow Jaunt.
Wall of Force : Shadow Jaunt.
Creation spells: Shadow Jaunt even though the range is 0 feet so unless you concooning yourself it's not going to be helpful.
Telekinetic Sphere : Shadow Jaunt, it's also a close range.

What kaelik said. Also, creation spells can be used to create unstable high explosives the way they are written. Wizards can have a contingent teleport to take them out of the way.

the sphere they can move through.

And get burned, melted, fried, poisoned, petrified, mind raped, and planeshifted.

Spell: We have 17 freaking HD since we have to be 17th level to take the maneuver. We're immune to sleep by default.

You asked for spells that stopped movement that freedom of movement didn't stop. Sleep/petrify from other sources works as well, even though stun and paralyze don't.

Irresistible Dance : Sure, but it's TOUCH range.
POA: Close range, but could do it.

It's easy to grab immunity to both. It's also easy to deliver both by proxy.

Tsunami / Obediant Avalanche : I don't even know where those are from, I really don't care either.

That was fairly obvious from the very beginning.

Every single thing you listed relies on going before the dude doing the Tornado Throw. None of them actually stop movement except for the dance.

Every one of them would stop tornado thrower from reaching target.

That you seem to think close range, 0 range and touch spells are 'hundreds of feet away' boggles my mind.

Because there is absolutely no way a wizard could cast by proxy. Traps, familiars, and project image just don't exist.

A ring of free action is in the PHB and such an amazingly good buy you should have it since it negates grappling. Which is one of the 4 ways I can think of to actually stop someone using a Tornado Throw if they don't have said item.

A) You're relying on rings of free movement being available.
B) There are many ways to stop a tornado throw. Turn ethereal, use illusion magic to get tornado thrower to attack wrong target, contingent teleportation, readied major creation (cover yourself and enemy in dirt, then burrow up and kill them), readied major creation (have fire immunity on, create massive amounts of tannerite/sodium/mercury fulminate/whatever, kaboom), etc.

I'm starting to suspect you've never actually played 3.5.

You shouldn't trust your intuition so much.

This is a maneuver you've going to have at 17th level. You ignore the henchmen,

And immediately get tripped by a series of readied actions.

don't care if you toss an image (which you shouldn't get tricked by anyways)

Martial adepts don't get truesight naturally.

because you can keep moving and should be able to toss and kill your target before they get an action off,

Given that wizards can boost their initiative into the stratosphere, this seems unlikely.

because all of your movement to them, regardless of how many other things you throw, add to your final throw check. And since Telekinetic Sphere is a close range spell, you're ripe for the picking.

In which case, you would trigger a contingent spell. Any spellcaster worth his/her salt will prepare an escape contingency. And if he/she has greater contingency, you won't live to see your failure.

It requires The PHB, ExPsi and Complete Champion (or really, just the SRD and Complete Champion). That's hardly dumpster diving. Even without persistant spell it has the ability to cover almost 1000' feet in a turn. Heck, PHB only you can get a Polymorphed into a Giant Eagle, get an Expeditious Retreat item and you've got a base movement of 110' which comes out to 220' on the Tornado Throw alone and 270' with the Shadow Jaunt.

So it requires at least 3 splatbooks, a very specific build, and DM fiat.

"Basically I wouldn't trust your conclusions about the ToB as far as I could throw them since you don't know the actual abilities, nor the how and why of combat at the points you're getting them." "Skipping the first bits because you so obviously wrong on them it's not even worth the time to refute them.""You can't see the value in it because you apparently are a terrible D&D player, if you have any real experience with it at all.""Face it, you've got nothing and clearly aren't knowledgeable enough to be speaking on this subject."

Black Knight: None shall pass.
King Arthur: What?
Black Knight: None shall pass!
King Arthur: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight. But I must cross this bridge.
Black Knight: Then you shall die.
King Arthur: I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!
Black Knight: I move for no man.
King Arthur: So be it!
[they fight until Arthur cuts off Black Knight's left arm]
King Arthur: Now, stand aside, worthy adversary!
Black Knight: 'Tis but a scratch!
King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm's off!
Black Knight: No, it isn't!
King Arthur: Well, what's that then?
King Arthur: I've had worse.
King Arthur: You liar!
Black Knight: Come on, you pansy!
[they fight again. Arthur cuts off the Knight's right arm]
King Arthur: Victory is mine!
[kneels to pray]
King Arthur: We thank thee, Lord, that in thy mercy -
[cut off by the Knight kicking him]
Black Knight: Come on, then.
King Arthur: What?
Black Knight: Have at you!
King Arthur: You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine!
Black Knight: Oh, had enough, eh?
King Arthur: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left!
Black Knight: Yes I have.
King Arthur: *Look*!
Black Knight: It's just a flesh wound.
[they fight again. Arthur cuts off the Knight's leg]
[the Black Knight continues to threaten Arthur despite getting both his arms and one of his legs cut off]
Black Knight: Right, I'll do you for that!
King Arthur: You'll what?
Black Knight: Come here!
King Arthur: What are you gonna do, bleed on me?
Black Knight: I'm invincible!
King Arthur: ...You're a loony.
[they fight again.]
[King Arthur has just cut the Black Knight's last leg off]
Black Knight: All right, we'll call it a draw.
King Arthur: [Preparing to leave] Come, Patsy.
[King Arthur and Patsy ride off]
Black Knight: [calling after King Arthur] Oh, oh, I see! Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you! I'll bite your legs off!

[Previn]

So yes, all those things you think you can shadow jaunt past? You can only do that if you shadow jaunt before you begin your Tornado Throw, so they could totally cock block your face.

Well, they still have to go first to ready the action. A spell caster should seriously being outright killing you at that point, and probably everyone within 40' of you. Readying an action to cast a spell that at best delays you a turn, if not outright wasting the caster's turn for nothing, isn't exactly a decisive move.

It's also essentially back to rock launcher tag, and that would be one of the 4 ways I could come up with to actually stop the movement after the action was started, maybe. I would have gone with Celerity over readying an action, but was counting both. There are other issues with readying and what he listed however.

Even a readied Wall of Force isn't a sure defense. It's close range, and there's a good possibility that the Tornado Thrower can actually move around it. 17 10'x10' squares, is a roughly 40' x40' wall to work with. That's annoying, but it's only 45' of movement to go around at best, and all of that movement counts for the final throw bonus. 45' is about a third of the movement you'd expect for someone at this point, and about half the starting distance you'd expect for an encounter going by the DMG.

A Wall of Stone is Medium range so it's got that, but it covers even less area than the Wall of Force, and may cover even less than, or not be usable at all that since by 17th level everyone should be flying around anyways. Wall of Iron has similar limitations and can actually fall over before he gets to it.

Depending on what's allowable to be readied, and what you ready for, a readied action may not even trigger, or may trigger when it's worthless (i.e. your force cage casting triggers while he's still out of range because it's a close range spell). Even a Shadow Jaunt before starting the Throw could ruin a readied action. We could get into the specific readied actions, but that's going to go nowhere fast.

Now, readying action is a somewhat viable answer, but that's not what he said or even implied, nor is is a remotely sure thing. Either way, I've got him on ignore now so I'm pretty much done at this point on this particular topic.

[Duke Flauros]

So yes, all those things you think you can shadow jaunt past? You can only do that if you shadow jaunt before you begin your Tornado Throw, so they could totally cock block your face.

Well, they still have to go first to ready the action. A spell caster should seriously being outright killing you at that point, and probably everyone within 40' of you. Readying an action to cast a spell that at best delays you a turn, if not outright wasting the caster's turn for nothing, isn't exactly a decisive move.

It's also essentially back to rock launcher tag, and that would be one of the 4 ways I could come up with to actually stop the movement after the action was started, maybe. I would have gone with Celerity over readying an action, but was counting both. There are other issues with readying and what he listed however.

Even a readied Wall of Force isn't a sure defense. It's close range, and there's a good possibility that the Tornado Thrower can actually move around it. 17 10'x10' squares, is a roughly 40' x40' wall to work with. That's annoying, but it's only 45' of movement to go around at best, and all of that movement counts for the final throw bonus. 45' is about a third of the movement you'd expect for someone at this point, and about half the starting distance you'd expect for an encounter going by the DMG.

A Wall of Stone is Medium range so it's got that, but it covers even less area than the Wall of Force, and may cover even less than, or not be usable at all that since by 17th level everyone should be flying around anyways. Wall of Iron has similar limitations and can actually fall over before he gets to it.

Depending on what's allowable to be readied, and what you ready for, a readied action may not even trigger, or may trigger when it's worthless (i.e. your force cage casting triggers while he's still out of range because it's a close range spell). Even a Shadow Jaunt before starting the Throw could ruin a readied action. We could get into the specific readied actions, but that's going to go nowhere fast.

Now, readying action is a somewhat viable answer, but that's not what he said or even implied, nor is is a remotely sure thing. Either way, I've got him on ignore now so I'm pretty much done at this point on this particular topic.

Aggressively asserting that your idea of balance is correct, throwing a tantrum when someone disagrees, refusing to look at the numbers, and finally plugging you ears and shouting “LALALA I CANT HEAR YOU!”-Tell me Previn, do you work for Fox News?

[OgreBattle]

Hmmm, now I'm considering if Orcus elements can be hacked into 4e

You start with your powers -X amount, because now they recharge.
You can recharge a point by making a standard action attack (at-will or basic)

Dailies could take up two slots perhaps, or remain dailies.

[Wrathzog]

I think you're good with letting at-wills recharge an encounter power as an effect. It's about as elegant a solution as you're going to get.
Dailies can probably be left alone.

[Lokathor]

Immortal Fortitude: (8, Stance) You ignore three instances of hit point damage while this stance lasts as long as you make an easy fortitude DC save (as in, your negative hit point total, which normally can't go past -10 for any reason). However, after three saves the stance ends.

I was just re-reading the SRD for some editing I was doing, and the section on Dead says

DEAD (–10 HIT POINTS OR LOWER)
When your character’s current hit points drop to –10 or lower, or if he takes massive damage (see above), he’s dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution to 0.

So, there's nothing preventing your HP from dropping past -10 at all.

[OgreBattle]

I think you're good with letting at-wills recharge an encounter power as an effect. It's about as elegant a solution as you're going to get.
Dailies can probably be left alone.

A ranger twin striking to recharge distrupting strike sounds fun, disrupting strike was the most fun I had with Ranger. Makes the ranger a cool 'defender'

I could see Wizard using the Swordsage recharge as he gathers his mystic energy. Some spells have you minor action to sustain for an extra round, so you could cast your zone effect, next turn minor sustain and use standard action to refocus, then cast it again.


I've enjoyed playing 4e, but I gotta say Bo9S's recharges do sound like more fun pacing than "use up all encounters, at-will at-will at-will" heh.