So yeah this thing again. (Mundane vs Magic)

[sabs]

Except that almost every sword where boy gets sword, killst he litch king. He's actually the son of X and has special magical powers.

Aragorn is an Atlantian and not a regular human.
Garion becomes BelGarion one of the most powerful sorcerors.. ever.
Taran is in a world where noone is above level 6.
Pug becomes The Wizard and well on his way to becoming the new God of Magic.
Thomas dons the armor of a Val'haru and effectively becomes a being of ancient power.
Name a High Fantasy setting where a boy picks up a sword and wins against a level 20 spellcaster.

For the other part:
Iron Man isn't a fighter. He's an artificer who makes himself a suit of awesome, with an intelligence score and voice activated attacks.
Thor: ISn't a fighter, he's a Paladin
Captain America: is playing a race with level adjustments, and yes, he's a fighter with an artifact shield.

[Seerow]

Pug becomes The Wizard and well on his way to becoming the new God of Magic.
Thomas dons the armor of a Val'haru and effectively becomes a being of ancient power.
Name a High Fantasy setting where a boy picks up a sword and wins against a level 20 spellcaster.

I was going to say Arutha, but no even he gets a free power up magic weapon that makes him immune to magic minutes before starting his fight.

[sabs]

Jimmy the Hand and his descendants basically get a "Call a Wizard in for support" Magic item. They do all their rogue/spy work, and when the shiiiiit his the faaaaann, they activate a button and 2-5 Epic level wizards show up to lay the smack down on anything not mundane.

There's Paladins of the Shield
There is the Fighter guy who works with the Demon Summoner, but he's a prop, and not expected to deal with anything more powerful than a basic physical demon.

[deaddmwalking]

I think western audiences would accept a mundane fighting man high level antics if we framed them in Action Hero parameters. Which means he has to have reality altering powers like "hits one in a million shots" and "villain behaves like an idiot" written in his sheet. Because the audience expects that the plot will contrive to make the boy somehow kill the lich king and this is what a lot of DMs end doing anyway. The actual difficulty is to write these powers in a way that's balanced with the rest of the game.

Grognards expect that the villain will behave like an idiot, but they don't want to write it on their character sheet. I don't know if I can explain what I mean, but I'm going to try.

Imagine you have a present - it's gift-wrapped. What is it? That's kind of exciting.

Now let's say I tell you, "I bought you what you wanted. Here, open it!"

That's less exciting, right?

Either way you're getting what you wanted. And in the first case, you might strongly suspect you're getting what you want, but there's some doubt.

Essentially, grognards want the DM to give them what they want, but they want to believe that there is some doubt that they'll get what they want. More importantly, they want to believe that they didn't have control over it, that things worked out because they were smart/played well, not that things worked out because they had an ability that demanded it. Does that make sense?

[Mistborn]

I think western audiences would accept a mundane fighting man high level antics if we framed them in Action Hero parameters. Which means he has to have reality altering powers like "hits one in a million shots" and "villain behaves like an idiot" written in his sheet. Because the audience expects that the plot will contrive to make the boy somehow kill the lich king and this is what a lot of DMs end doing anyway. The actual difficulty is to write these powers in a way that's balanced with the rest of the game.

Giving plotwarping powers to fighters isn't just going to make Grognards unhappy it's going to make Lord Mistborn unhappy. If you have to come up with a bullshit plan/suck off the DM/have the plot on your side to beat the monster the moster better damn well be higher level. Elsewise what do levels even mean. When mundane swordguy kills the giant/dragon/wizard it's a big fucking deal because they are higher level than him. Narative based mecanics can go suck a barrel of cocks.

[RobbyPants]

Giving plotwarping powers to fighters isn't just going to make Grognards unhappy it's going to make Lord Mistborn unhappy. If you have to come up with a bullshit plan/suck off the DM/have the plot on your side to beat the monster the moster better damn well be higher level. Elsewise what do levels even mean. When mundane swordguy kills the giant/dragon/wizard it's a big fucking deal because they are higher level than him. Narative based mecanics can go suck a barrel of cocks.

Yes, but even against higher level dragons, the wizard still has a shot at defeating it with what's written on his character sheet.

Also, looking at 3E, as you gain levels, the fighter does fall behind in what he can handle on his own, so suddenly even level-appropriate monsters end up out of reach.

[Doom]

There's Thundarrrrrrrrr...a barbarian with the uber-l33t sword of extra-awesome.

[Mistborn]

Yes, but even against higher level dragons, the wizard still has a shot at defeating it with what's written on his character sheet.

Also, looking at 3E, as you gain levels, the fighter does fall behind in what he can handle on his own, so suddenly even level-appropriate monsters end up out of reach.

Thank you Captain Obivous. Now why do you think that is.

[RobbyPants]

I honestly don't know where you're going with this.

[Wrathzog]

The thing is, the fighting man has to exist because stories like: "Boy gets sword, kills the lich king" are told. I'm not a psychologist to explain why people like to hear these stories or be that boy, but the fact is that they do, and they'll get frustrated if the game doesn't support it.

You're absolutely right, the Mundane Man (calling him the Fighting Man kind of keeps him in a narrow design space and that's part of the problem) needs to exist. The issue then is how to proceed.

I think you were onto something with using the SGT in reverse. That's a good idea.

[sabs]

Why does the mundane man need to exist in a high fantasy system as a viable option all the way into Epic land?

[Mistborn]

Why does the mundane man need to exist in a high fantasy system as a viable option all the way into Epic land?

It really shouldn't. I think a lot of the pain and rage can be avoided if you spell out tiers more clearly for the players. Having the mundane fighter end at 5th level is the fastest and easyest solution for this problem.

[name_here]

Name a High Fantasy setting where a boy picks up a sword and wins against a level 20 spellcaster.

Japan says hi

[Lago PARANOIA]

I think western audiences would accept a mundane fighting man high level antics if we framed them in Action Hero parameters. Which means he has to have reality altering powers like "hits one in a million shots" and "villain behaves like an idiot" written in his sheet.

In case you haven't noticed, that's not good enough. Batman has been trying that for years and it's only offended people not caught up in the faux-awesome throes.

Japan says hi

No, it doesn't. Ike and other slightly-magical VAH/DMFs of his ilk don't do anything more narratively impressive than what a horde of faceless mooks with a helping of luck could until the last act of Radiant Dawn. And even then it derps the fuck out deeply into Batman Dodges Omega Beams with a heaping helping of Flash Has Trouble Keeping Up With A Speeding Truck territory.

Thanks again for that reminder about how fapping to mundane heroes in high-level plots creates dissonant and/or dishonest stories. Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn perfectly encapsulates why Ike and friends are a pile of bullshit outside of their narrow confines.

[nockermensch]

I think western audiences would accept a mundane fighting man high level antics if we framed them in Action Hero parameters. Which means he has to have reality altering powers like "hits one in a million shots" and "villain behaves like an idiot" written in his sheet.

In case you haven't noticed, that's not good enough. Batman has been trying that for years and it's only offended people not caught up in the faux-awesome throes.

lol, Lago. So is Batman is a failure case now?

I'm alright with not catering to people who think that. In fact, it's impossible to do so, because they treat "mundane guy cannot compete in high level" as a premise, and work from there. This is a position so extreme as the grognard's one that "mechanically lackluster mundane guy must compete in high level" without even understanding how, so fuck all this noise.

[DSMatticus]

This is a position so extreme as the grognard's

Why do you seem to get more retarded as this thread goes on? "Batman cannot arm-wrestle the hulk" is not an extreme position. It's a simple fact that you must hold to be true if A) Batman is supposed to be mundane, B) Hulk is supposed to have super strength, and C) the world in which the story is being told is supposed to make any sense or have any consistency.

If you are saying that Batman can be a high-level mundane guy because high-level mundane guys can outrun the flash, out-armwrestle the Hulk, out-fly Superman, or whatever the fuck else, you're being dumb please stop.

lol, Lago. So is Batman is a failure case now?

Any story that features Batman and Superman working together to overcome the same challenge is a joke, has always been a joke, and always will be a joke. Batman there is, at best, the guy who tells Superman who he needs to beat up. And if Batman is competing in a fight with people who are giving Superman a hard time, then Batman should just be instantly exploding.

There's no consistency there, because when Batman's not out with Superman he's getting beaten up by thugs with pipes, something Superman totally ignores.

[Wrathzog]

Why does the mundane man need to exist in a high fantasy system as a viable option all the way into Epic land?

Because people want it. That's all there is to it and we don't need more of a reason to put in the effort to make it viable.

I'm alright with not catering to people who think that. In fact, it's impossible to do so, because they treat "mundane guy cannot compete in high level" as a premise, and work from there. This is a position so extreme as the grognard's one that "mechanically lackluster mundane guy must compete in high level" without even understanding how, so fuck all this noise.

I never even considered this... So, this is actually a three way battle between people who think the Mundane Man (Fighter) is fine, that the Mundane Man needs some buffs, and that the Mundane Man simply doesn't belong at all.
Hurm. Hurm...
And since the first group doesn't really have any representatives here...
-e-
I lost my train of thought.

[DSMatticus]

that the Mundane Man needs some buffs

That really doesn't make any sense, and it should be obvious why. If you take the Mundane Man and give him the strength of Hercules, he's not the Mundane Man anymore. He's that completely beyond mundane guy who gets in fist fights with mountains and wins. Saying that the Mundane Man needs buffs is an incredibly reasonable position because it is identical to the position, "people should level up out of being the Mundane Man."

Instead of being actual powers in the game world, Nockermensch is arguing that those should be narrative powers like "(Ex): More Human Than Superhuman" where superhuman challenges become arbitrarily more human when he's the one facing them (the hulk can crush concrete, but not my face, but I'm totally human! I swear!), or "(Ex): Villains Are Stupid" where anyone who fights him makes measurably suboptimal moves. And if we give the Mundane Man those abilities on his character sheet, then suddenly he becomes a viable character while still being the Mundane Man. What he actually becomes, of course, is a walking plot hole.

Edit: Related note. Nobody who wants to play fighter because they think it's cool wants to play a character whose primary ability set is narratively warping reality. It will not actually satisfy the people who want mundane action heroes. They will say, 'neat gimmick, got anything more vanilla? I want something that feels more ACTION HERO.'

[Wrathzog]

Well, I'm not saying that it'd be easy or anything, but I'm positive that it's completely doable.

Also, Comics are dumb. Superman's powerset includes being able to see your Soul. He can punch Lightning. He's overpowered and boring.

[DSMatticus]

He's overpowered and boring.

Welcome to high-level wizards. The comparison holds.

And no. No, it is definitionally not doable. There is no mechanism by which you can take Batman and put him on Superman's level without taking Batman and:
1) Turning him into Iron Man (mundane vessel of a superhuman device).
2) Turning him into the Hulk (his mundane fighting powers go supernova).
3) PLOT MACGUFFIN. (Do you feel empowered now that the DM's dropped a kryptonite cannon in your lap?)
4) Making Superman so stupid he may as well punch himself in the face and lay himself at Batman's feet. (ACTION HERO, TO THE RESCUE!)

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot claim that Batman is mundane, Superman is super, and that Batman and Superman are equally competent. It makes no fucking sense. Being super is definitionally being more competent than a mundane. One of those three things absolutely has to give, and it's utterly non-negotiatable.

[nockermensch]

This is a position so extreme as the grognard's

Why do you seem to get more retarded as this thread goes on? "Batman cannot arm-wrestle the hulk" is not an extreme position. It's a simple fact that you must hold to be true if A) Batman is supposed to be mundane, B) Hulk is supposed to have super strength, and C) the world in which the story is being told is supposed to make any sense or have any consistency.

If you are saying that Batman can be a high-level mundane guy because high-level mundane guys can outrun the flash, out-armwrestle the Hulk, out-fly Superman, or whatever the fuck else, you're being dumb please stop.

Nice strawman there, but this is not about Batman (or the fighting man) playing fair. As Frank said on the first page, and I said again in this page, is about him cheating. Like, cheating like hell.

lol, Lago. So is Batman is a failure case now?

Any story that features Batman and Superman working together to overcome the same challenge is a joke, has always been a joke, and always will be a joke. Batman there is, at best, the guy who tells Superman who he needs to beat up. And if Batman is competing in a fight with people who are giving Superman a hard time, then Batman should just be instantly exploding.

There's no consistency there, because when Batman's not out with Superman he's getting beaten up by thugs with pipes, something Superman totally ignores.

While it's true that superhero stories lack internal consistency, this is only a problem if you want. I don't even care that Batman cannot be in the same story as Superman because "in reality", a Superman punch would pack more kinetic energy than this, because the logical part of my brain already shut down by the time The Flash joined the action and by then I'm just smiling at the colorful panels. As in, Batman being in the immediate vicinity of things who slug each out with tactical ordnance strength punches and not getting liquified by the shockwaves is less retarded than one guy who can act thousands of times each round and has a signature ability of using all those actions to "Run". One can be ignored by thinking that we're dealing with "action movie physics", where concussive damage is about 1000x less lethal than it should be. The other hurts the mind. The Flash has to be reacting and thinking during his burst of superspeed because if not, he'd be running blind and would explode by running into obstacles. Then when The Flash "runs over the Pacific", he's actually, you know, running over thousands of miles, alone with his thoughts, during what should look for him like days or weeks of subjective time. Fuck that.

Back to the fantasy universe, the Lich King also doesn't Contact Other Plane from on a schedule to figure that a plucky group of heroes will destroy him in about six months, even if he lives in a reality while exactly this kind of shit is supposed to happen. So there are in fact fact logical holes that you need to overlook to tell the story of band of underdogs #32492 that gets to kick ass and save the princess. But you still want to keep telling that story, because people want to play it. In fact, some of them will want to play it as the farmer's son who took a sword. By which point, it's really all about personal tastes if you render the farmer's son as just a very, very lucky and capable mundane guy, or if you insist he must start farting ki blasts to keep playing with the wizard. Because the "internal world logic" is already crying itself to sleep since these guys weren't wiped by a retinue of Spectres by 1st level.

[DSMatticus]

While it's true that superhero stories lack internal consistency, this is only a problem if you want. I don't even care that Batman cannot be in the same story as Superman because "in reality", a Superman punch would pack more kinetic energy than this, because the logical part of my brain already shut down by the time The Flash joined the action and by then I'm just smiling at the colorful panels.

There's absolutely no point talking to you if you can't understand the difference between internal consistency and realism. That's a fundamental stumbling block that we can't have meaningful conversation around; you're going to have to find your way over it and then we can pick this back up.

[Wrathzog]

And no. No, it is definitionally not doable. There is no mechanism by which you can take Batman and put him on Superman's level without taking Batman and:
1) Turning him into Iron Man (mundane vessel of a superhuman device).
2) Turning him into the Hulk (his mundane fighting powers go supernova).
3) PLOT MACGUFFIN. (Do you feel empowered now that the DM's dropped a kryptonite cannon in your lap?)
4) Making Superman so stupid he may as well punch himself in the face and lay himself at Batman's feet. (ACTION HERO, TO THE RESCUE!)

I'm perfectly okay with 1 and 3. These concepts do not "rustle my jimmies." I don't really care that the character's usefulness becomes defined by their items or equipment as long as that "power" is ultimately derived from the class itself and that at the end of the day, the character is still a normal dude who just happens to have some boss swag. There is plenty of precedent for that both mechanically and thematically.
I'm also more than fine with 5) Nerf the fuck out of Superman/Wizards/Magic.

And it's important to keep note that Mundane here stands for Non-Magical and not Normal. We don't care about Normal people. We're talking about Heroes. The Mundane Man is still a hero, and we have to figure out how to make him Heroic without also being Magical.
Definitely challenging; I would like to think that it's not impossible.

-e-
added extra clarification
also, also: Comics are Fucking retarded.

[DSMatticus]

I'm perfectly okay with 1 and 3.

One is a perfectly valid high-level character concept. The problem is that Iron Man isn't a mundane character, and so the mission statement "preserve mundane characters into high-level fantasy" fails. What you've done is made a high-level artifact a member of the team, and a mundane character happens to be the person who carries it around and uses it.

[nockermensch]

While it's true that superhero stories lack internal consistency, this is only a problem if you want. I don't even care that Batman cannot be in the same story as Superman because "in reality", a Superman punch would pack more kinetic energy than this, because the logical part of my brain already shut down by the time The Flash joined the action and by then I'm just smiling at the colorful panels.

There's absolutely no point talking to you if you can't understand the difference between internal consistency and realism. That's a fundamental stumbling block that we can't have meaningful conversation around; you're going to have to find your way over it and then we can pick this back up.

Superman not liquifying Batman by simply moving and punching is a hit to realism, but works inside an internally consistent comic book logic, where these forces simply don't come into play. Somebody like the Flash reacting thousands of times per second can even be "realistic" because we do in fact have computers that react that fast (he actually moving is not for obvious reasons, etc). But you wrap internal consistency around the flash by "not thinking too hard about him" - he's a walking narrative weak point, because the way he uses his powers should be an insult to people INSIDE HIS WORLD.

It's not even just the Flash, everybody who reads comics know that to expect internal consistency in how the supers work from author to author is the way to the madness (comic geeks try anyway, because geeks), so the right way to read/watch a supers story is to have the following parameters regarding The Flash's powers:

The Flash

• • is very quick.

There. About any more detail than that will give you headaches at some point. So this particular fantastic world already has a very shallow internal consistency to begin with. If you start to look hard at any particular point things will fall apart, and even then people are still fine about consuming these stories because they just want to read about the guy who's very quick ultrapunching some bad guys.

This is the same regarding fantasy, really. It's all down to you're accepting that some guys are enough awesome that reality bends backwards for them - at which point this becomes just another parameter for the internal consistency to hold. Seriously, read Discworld and see how Cohen the Barbarian works. Also note that Discworld's own internal consistency is about impecable, light-years beyond what people expect from the Marvel or DC universes.

Finally, for the sake of completion, here are the actual parameters for Superman and Batman, the ones that are always consistent from story to story:

Superman

• • is very strong, resistant and quick.
  • flies
  • is weak to kriptonite

Batman

• • is the goddamn Batman