Pathfinder

andreww · Post by **andreww** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:59 am

Archmage Joda wrote:Quick question on the same vein: Would it be worth it to go crossblooded archetype as well, and if so, what bloodline would cross best with sage?

In general no. As mentioned you know fewer spells at each level which delays further your access to higher level spells. You do get the spell slots but not getting actual level 2 spells until level 5 is pretty painful. You also take a -2 penalty to Will which can be a problem especially as Wisdom is often touted as a Sorcerer dump stat.

Obtain the only slightly viable crossblooded version is the Orc with the Draconic or Elemental lines which let you add up to +2 damage per die you are rolloing. This can actually reach potentially significant numbers combined with stuff like Magical Lineage, Intensify and Empower and later on especially with Spell Perfection.

Unfortunately its now rather eclipsed as if you want to blast you are far better off taking Dazing Spell and focusing on massive AoE action denial which works on pretty much anything.

UmaroVI · Post by **UmaroVI** » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:32 pm

Tattooed Sorcerer's SLA thing is even more crap than that. It doesn't work on things that have expensive material components and PF doesn't have XP costs (anything that used to seems to now just have expensive components). So no cheese. It's better than a base sorcerer, but you can probably do better.

Given what you need, I would recommend going with Seeker. The first-level seeker ability gets you full Trapfinding as a rogue (including disarm magical traps and all that jazz). Stealth is lolinvisibility, and helping the melee dude get not overrun is lolbuffs-and-crowd-control.

Razmiran Channel is not bad, if you build around it, but starting at 4th level, I would not be selecting around a 9th level ability.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:31 pm

I'm still baffled by how bad they are at making good Prestige Classes.

Edit: They also keep saying that they don't hate the Monk, yet constantly place evidence of the opposite in the errata.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:26 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:Edit: They also keep saying that they don't hate the Monk, yet constantly place evidence of the opposite in the errata.

My theory is that if the developers actually tried playing a monk PC in a mid- to high-level campaign, then they'd "get it". But since it's not popular with the developers, it's shrouded in misconceptions.

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:00 pm

The logic behind the prestige classes (if you can call it that) is that you should only become, say, a Master of the Cockbarrel if you want to your character to be one. You're not supposed to pick a couple of levels of MotC because it makes you generally better at sucking barrels of cocks.

So in the designer's mind, it's a privilege to be able to write Master of the Cockbarrel on your sheet. You have to pay for it by trading good, polyvalent class abilities for hyper-specialized, sucky powers. You know, like they did in the early 3.0 splatbooks like Sword and Fist.

Obviously, this has the predictable result that nobody ever uses the prestige classes, because even if you do actually want to play a Master of the Cockbarrel, you don't want him to become obsolete in two levels.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:19 pm

Yeah, there's less than 10 PrCs. The rest are so bad, you're better off taking a level of Commoner and then keep progressing in your core class. Even if that class is Fighter or Monk. That bad.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:17 pm

So, for a very short answered question: What are the PrCs in Pathfinder that are actually worth taking?

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:35 pm

hogarth wrote: My theory is that if the developers actually tried playing in a mid- to high-level campaign, then they'd "get it". But since it's not popular with the developers, it's shrouded in misconceptions.

I get the distinct impression the devs stop playing at level 5 and call it done.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:06 am

icyshadowlord wrote: Edit: They also keep saying that they don't hate the Monk, yet constantly place evidence of the opposite in the errata.

Occam's Razor says they're just idiots.

sake · Post by **sake** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:22 am

Archmage Joda wrote:So, for a very short answered question: What are the PrCs in Pathfinder that are actually worth taking?

Basically any prc that was already worth taking in 3.5 that was transferred over almost whole cloth to Pathfinder and had a few fiddly bits added to make it look like an improvement. Any PrC since then that is completely new to PF is just outright fail.

And even then it's a bit questionable how useful the PrC's might be compared to the pure classes, depending on level and the campaign. IE: the Magnus actually *is* superior to a Eldritch Knight Multiclass... right until around lv 10, at which point the EK is a god among insects, while the Magnus is still just a shitty melee focused Bard without any Save or Sucks.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:30 am

Archmage Joda wrote:So, for a very short answered question: What are the PrCs in Pathfinder that are actually worth taking?

Well, every PrC class at the very least costs out on a favored class bonus, in addition to the usual caveats of fucking up your BAB or saves if you take them the 'wrong' way -- though Pathfinder introduces a lot more non-standard save classes. So 'might as well' PrCs like the Loremaster become non-choices.

Pathfinder Chronicler and Daivrat are 'good' if you don't mind losing a spellcaster level to plunder spells off of other lists. The only reason really to do this is so that you can snag Summoner spells ahead of schedule.

Hellknight Signifier, if you already have light and medium armor proficiency, provides enough boosts so that you end up slightly behind taking straight wizard or cleric levels. It's the Stormlord PrC of Pathfinder. If you're doing something stupid like taking Eldritch Knight levels it's a way for people to get that so-called all-important 9th-level spells/16 BAB by level 20.

Veiled Illusionist chews if you take it as a wizard, is all right if you take it as a sorcerer, and fucking rules if you take it as a blaster cleric or druid. Seriously, if you're a blaster cleric I can't think of a reason NOT to take it.

Divine Scion is a huge boon to a blaster cleric willing to stick with it, especially one with the Part the Veil ability from the Void domain. It provides a tiny boost on DPR for cleric archers (accounting for the feat tax) who take the Fire domain.

Arclord of Nex is tolerable if you weren't using those favored level bonuses for anything.

The Balanced Scale of Abador is 'great' if you have a lot of downtime and are doing WBL-cheese. I'd rather just take the Water (flotsam) domain, though.

I haven't looked at a lot of the non-caster PrCs. Because playing a non-caster after level 6, about when PrCs become worth looking at, depresses me.

K · Post by K » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:13 am

Demoniacs are kind of neat. There is one demon lord whose Boon is to let you cast Dominate Monster once/day with a permanent duration (1 max at a time). Not bad for 13th level (assuming you can get Intimidate on a spellcaster from a trait or something).

MisterDee · Post by **MisterDee** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:33 am

As to the mundane PrCs... well, if you're a fighter or a rogue, you probably can find a prestige class that has something better than an extra +1 to your will save against fear or a bonus to trap sense or whatever. You're probably going to have to set some feats on fire to qualify though.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:02 pm

I'll just hijack this thread for my questions, it's close enough.

it seems like I found a Pathfinder group and I have snatched the wizard (planning to do conjuration spec) from possible evocers BUT i haven't really played since 3.5 so I'm not sure which schools to drop. Usually I'd go for evo and abjuration, but i noticed you can drop divination.

Also I might take Thassilonian Specialist, more slots baby, but a) since I want to go conjurer losing evo is awesome, but losing illusion might suck monkeyballs and b) if have no idea how good the specialist abilities are in the longrun.

FYI Campaign might go into the higher levels, at least thats the plan. MC wants to do Rise of the Runelords, if that matters in this decision at all.

Any crunchy advise is welcome, btw. Haven't had much time to look at Pathfinder new and improved spells, remember even less from my last game a gazillion years ago. I'm also fine with pointers that are slightly more specific than "Pathfinder is still bad" thread. My GoogleFu already failed me on that one.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:38 pm

Well, if you don't mind being slightly behind in combat spells (i.e. you regularly do one-encounter workdays) IMO Divination (foresight) is the best school to specialize in short of cheese like the Thassilonian Specialist.

If you and preferably your party as well has a good grip on Murder Pinball, there are two good reasons to specialize in Evocation: Lingering Spell and theEvocation: Generation subschool. Be sure to pack lots of rods of Lingering Spell.

If you're looking for a school to drop you can safely drop Divination in Pathfinder. Not only does Pathfinder let you ban Divination, but banned schools don't prevent you from casting the spell. It just requires an additional slot to cast it. Which unless you continually live in a dungeon Eye of the Beholder Style probably isn't that big of a concern.

Unless you're doing familiar-based cheese, go with Arcane Bond for a magical item instead of Arcane Bond with a familiar. Grab a staff, wand, or a ring to your pleasure. You will probably want a ring, of course, since the level prerequisite for rings are fucking ridiculous. Not only do you get to cast an extra spell of anything you know on the fly once a day, but it functions as a single-use Item Creation feature.

If your DM allows guns in your campaign there's almost no reason not to go with the Spell-Slinger archetype. None of the other archetypes are really worth mentioning.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:20 pm

I want to avoid any cheese for now and I assume my party is from the "Fighters are Awesome and Fireball is best spell evar!" mindset, so I'll be pretty much on my own and want to do as much crowd control nonsense as possible so we manage to not get butchered by random goblins.

I really like Foresight Diviner, but having aditional slots for divination... i don't know, doesn't sound very awesome. Thats why i settled on conjuration (teleportation) for now.

Now only one question remains, is it worth it become a Thasselionian Specialist, since you seem to lose schools like back in 3.5 and can't really pick which schools go. And I mean "worth" as in "not going for gamebreaking cheese". I have borked games playing an evoker, I really don't want to do that with a real wizard.

And sorry if my ramblings are confusing, I haven't written in english for almost as long as I haven't played RPGs.

Btw, guns are most likely flat out, this is fantasy not SciFi!

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:18 pm

What level are you starting at?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:25 pm

I'm starting at 4th.

I decided to go with a really odd build, mostly because of what else was in the party, and the things they needed.
2 rogue/1 alchemist/1 wizard, with the future goal of going Arcane Trickster. Which is admitedly a bad wizard, but a rather good rogue

Going with the batman build, basically. brew potions, scribe scrolls, create wands at 7th. Basically, a power/spell/utility for every occassion, and I can stand in Melee with the melee character and give him some help.
Since my familiar is going to count for my ratfolk swarming racial trait, I get to flank anyone I feel like, which means I can /always/ sneak attack someone. It's probably not as powerful as a straight wizard, but it fits in with the other characters.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:37 pm

sabs wrote: Basically, a power/spell/utility for every occassion, and I can stand in Melee with the melee character and give him some help.

Your 4th level character with +1 BAB and no armor is going to stand in melee?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:52 pm

22 ac and a +10 attack bonus is in fact going to stand in melee.
I'm small, and I don't look like much of a threat, so I should get a couple of rounds of noone trying too hard to kill me.

Add to that on a full combat action I can do 7d6+1d4+1d2.. assuming I can hit with said +10 to hit against flanked opponents. Otherwise I can do 3d6 with a standard action, or I can cast colour spray.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:35 pm

Once again appearing to ask similar pathfinder wizardy questions: what prestige classes would be good for a transmutation specialist wizard with the primalist archetype, under the assumption that wizards do in fact get the 2 free spells per level up when taking PrC levels, as my GM said he'd be making this a houserule in his games, since he agrees with me that the default ruling that they don't is stupid?

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:50 pm

You lose your transmutation specialist powers if you go prestige class.
Really, looking at the prestige classes. They seem really terrible. I think I heard about one that lets you steal spells from other people's spell list. As a Wizard, whose job it is to have a spell(wand) for every occasion that seems to be one of the few that might be worthwhile. I was looking at all the prestige classes, and they're just aweful.

You're just better off going 20 wizard.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:57 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Well, if you don't mind being slightly behind in combat spells (i.e. you regularly do one-encounter workdays) IMO Divination (foresight) is the best school to specialize in short of cheese like the Thassilonian Specialist.

If you and preferably your party as well has a good grip on Murder Pinball, there are two good reasons to specialize in Evocation: Lingering Spell and theEvocation: Generation subschool. Be sure to pack lots of rods of Lingering Spell.

If you're looking for a school to drop you can safely drop Divination in Pathfinder. Not only does Pathfinder let you ban Divination, but banned schools don't prevent you from casting the spell. It just requires an additional slot to cast it. Which unless you continually live in a dungeon Eye of the Beholder Style probably isn't that big of a concern.

Unless you're doing familiar-based cheese, go with Arcane Bond for a magical item instead of Arcane Bond with a familiar. Grab a staff, wand, or a ring to your pleasure. You will probably want a ring, of course, since the level prerequisite for rings are fucking ridiculous. Not only do you get to cast an extra spell of anything you know on the fly once a day, but it functions as a single-use Item Creation feature.

If your DM allows guns in your campaign there's almost no reason not to go with the Spell-Slinger archetype. None of the other archetypes are really worth mentioning.

Primalist and Shadowcaster allow you to spell cycle like you have free PoPs, and if your MC allows third party, the Onmyouji with some downtime is all sorts of dumb; you can Frank Cheat your way into having more spell slots than you know what to do with. Also, the Shikigami as familiar is nice.

I have to ask; why do you have such a stiffy for the Spell-Slinger? Its cynical DC bonuses appear to only affect a certain number of spells, precious few of which are things you really care about. Now if you read casting through the gun in the same way you need your bonded item to cast, it's great. If you don't, it's kind of not.

You can't even shoot Fireballs through your damn gun and get the bonus. The fuck?

Joda: PF PRCs are still pretty bad with that ruling, but it wouldn't hurt to go Cyphermage for scroll cheese, PF Savant/Daivrat for spell stealing, Diabolist/Demoniac (if your MC allows evil) and maybe Hellknight Signifier.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:02 pm

Pathfinder really shouldn't even have Prestige Classing. I always felt that the Intent with Archetypes was to do away with that shit.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:31 pm

"Frank Cheat"?