The Shadowrun Situation

K · Post by K » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:17 pm

Wesley Street wrote: Which means as a company the publisher would need to focus on bringing in new players to the game rather than pandering to an aging base. Y'know... what they should be doing anyway.

Yeh, but which gaming company is doing that? Even DnD is being recreated as a home for 1970s grognards.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:02 pm

K wrote:
Wesley Street wrote: Which means as a company the publisher would need to focus on bringing in new players to the game rather than pandering to an aging base. Y'know... what they should be doing anyway.
Yeh, but which gaming company is doing that? Even DnD is being recreated as a home for 1970s grognards.

I hate to say it, I really do...

Paizo.

Sure, I mean they are pandering to people who played D&D 6 years ago and liked it but felt that something wasn't quite right and couldn't put their finger on it. But that's a younger, hipper crowd with more room for growth than trying to recapture my dad's gaming group. News flash: my dad's gaming group is not going to reform and play the newest version of D&D. That simply is not going to happen.

But people who played 3.5 in Highschool are in grad school now, that's an actual market you could chase.

-Username17

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:10 pm

K wrote:
Wesley Street wrote: Which means as a company the publisher would need to focus on bringing in new players to the game rather than pandering to an aging base. Y'know... what they should be doing anyway.
Yeh, but which gaming company is doing that? Even DnD is being recreated as a home for 1970s grognards.

Pretty much every modern "indie" RPG that isn't a fantasy heartbreaker is trying to appeal to people who just like doing improv and shit instead of hardcore D&D grogs. Although there are a lot of throwback fantasy heartbreakers, and Dungeon World, which sits at a weird fault line between the two strategies.

For something crunchier, those guys that did Eclipse Phase, maybe?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:19 pm

The guys that did Eclipse Phase are the same guys that built SR4. And as much as I love Rob, and he's a better rules guy than I am, I don't think I want to see his take on the Matrix rules again.

unnamednpc · Post by **unnamednpc** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:04 pm

Ok, but as far as I can tell, Paizo's idea of a rules system is to fill encyclopedia after enclopedia worth of paper with barrages of meaningless +/-1s and some clearly broken win/lose combos. I am in no way in the "WHARGARBL Paizo is teh worst" camp, and from what I read and heard, they seem to actually be a bunch of pretty enthusiastic folks working on a product they care about (as opposed to the vibe you get from WotC, or CGL), but I really don't want to see their take on a Shadowrun ruleset.

Yes, they could bring in new talent. Like, the talented people at CGL, I guess, they'd be looking for work?

As for the fiction, again, I'm not really versed in PF, they seem to be pretty big on worldbuilding, so, given a couple of capable writers, that might work.

tl,dr: Paizo might have the logistics and market-penetration, but I don't see them as the right people.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:08 pm

For the purposes of this example, it doesn't really matter if you see them as the right people, just that they aren't chasing an aging, bearish market.

unnamednpc · Post by **unnamednpc** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:48 pm

For the purposes of this example, it does kind of matter, because you need to know what market you want chased, by what kind of people, and with what kind of product.
See, the more I think about it, the more certain I become that, both as a game-line and as a piece of ongoing world-fiction, Shadowrun is actually dead beyond revival.
I partly agree with Frank's assessment that even if you take out the last 5 or so years, the metaplot is just full of eels.
OTOH, I think you can only take out so much baggage before the result ceases to be Shadowrun. For example, Asymetrc Threat brought a lot of neat concepts to the table and proposes a much more relevant and timely take on the fantasy/cyberpunk genre, but, to me, it doesn't register as even remotely Shadowrun, because Shadowrun is intrinsically associated with a set of iconic elements.
Unfortunately, most of these elements are vetted in the Gibson-era glam-punky nonsense of the late eighties/early nineties. That Elf Decker looks all kinds of hokey, but it's a disitinctive expression of design, attitude, and Zeitgeist. Magical Native American Super Guerillas are full-on versimilitude-wrecking retarded in a lot of ways, but they, too, played a significant part in providing Shadowrun with distinctive imagery and flavour.
Personally, I don't think you can strip that type of stuff out without losing the essence of the game/world. (Of course, I might actually qualify as aging, and somewhat bearish).

Ultimately, it boils down to what you consider "saving" Shadowrun, and to me, that's a pretty binary choice:
Pull the plug, erase it, and replace it with a new, coherent fiction rooted in a more modern perspective, or
Reboot, but purposefully keep most of the anachronistic, retro-esque nature of the fiction intact and preserve the universe as an alternate history sci-fi, "futures past" type of fiction.
Note that both of these options would definitvely presuppose first removing the line as far as possible from the reach of the current "developers".

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:31 pm

By 3rd ed. (and I think even as early as 2nd) SR had ditched the glam-rock vibe and gone full bore techno. I know people who started playing SR with 4th ed. and find the 1st ed. material to be amazingly hokey and disconcerting. The only people who care about out-of-date visual tropes are in their mid-30s-to-mid-40s, the heart attack years.

I'd also argue that the Native American Nations, while providing interesting visuals, are pretty insignificant in retrospect. No plot lines ever hung on the NAN and it's not hard to create a techno-primitive aesthetic to reinforce the fantasy-science fiction hybrid.

Professional thievery in a near-future Tolkien-inspired fantasy setting isn't a tough sell and if you game, SR is the first thing that jumps to mind.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:49 am

I'd be happy just to see development move on to a new publisher who started work right away on a fifth edition. Put the game on a hiatus and restart 4th ed style at the correct date from start. Make up some shit to put a layer of soil on the Hardy years and see what grows.

It'll take vision, but if the new publisher doesn't have vision they have no business working on Shadowrun. It would be better off dead and gone than pushed further ahead into a deranged twilight.

Of course there doesn't seem to be enough money or care to save Shadowrun anymore. I'll keep buying lotto tickets in the meantime.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:07 am

The magic + technology has always been the appeal for me. However the worship of Mr. Mechanical Typewriter and TRON has never worked for me (nor have the game mechanics for it ever worked). The whole Elf-Orc thing could be shitcanned too.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:22 am

Ancient History wrote:The guys that did Eclipse Phase are the same guys that built SR4. And as much as I love Rob, and he's a better rules guy than I am, I don't think I want to see his take on the Matrix rules again.

It's been a long time since I had a gander through the Eclipse Phase rulebook, but I remember the rules being a confused, muddled, poorly designed, terrible mess, with the hacking rules being only the most egregious instance of poor design. I actually had the idea of doing a full conversion of EP into SR4, which would probably be pretty easy once you figure out how morphs and egos interact, since I honestly think the EP setting is one of the best ever made.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:01 am

Wesley Street wrote: I'd also argue that the Native American Nations, while providing interesting visuals, are pretty insignificant in retrospect. No plot lines ever hung on the NAN and it's not hard to create a techno-primitive aesthetic to reinforce the fantasy-science fiction hybrid.

Pretty much this. The only playable city setting that ever did a single thing with the tribal governments was Denver. And they had Godzilla stomp all over that setting and never looked back.The fact that there even were tribal governments was pretty much completely pointless. The only governments out of the original NAN council that ever did a single thing were Aztlan, Tir Tairngire, and the Pueblo Corporate Council. And all of those countries had abandoned theirtribalness. There was no Tsimshian or Salish metaplot - they were just areas on the map to explain why you could not drive from Seattle to the rest of the UCAS.

You could just as easily have put "here be dragons" onto Idaho for all the difference it made. If you want tribal aesthetics, just give the magic a Native American aesthetic. Heck, you could go as far as to give magic in America a Native American aesthetic, while magic in Europe has a pre-Roman aesthetic (or whatever). Having people show up in your punk future with Maori facial tattoos doesn´t really need an explanation at all (that could simply be the style at the time), but if you need an explanation of some kind and you have a resurgence of ancient magic in your setting, an explanation is not hard to come by. You don´t need to introduce an Athabaskan Council that you then never write into your metaplot for two decades straight.

-Username17

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:36 am

The only playable city setting that ever did a single thing with the tribal governments was Denver. And they had Godzilla stomp all over that setting and never looked back.The fact that there even were tribal governments was pretty much completely pointless

I (should) know you don't give a shit because it's a book Catalyst has released in the past three years and therefore automatically and unilaterally badwrongbad, but there are pages and pages on the intra and inter-tribal politics of Denver in Spy Games.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:56 am

I might of missed it, so I'll ask, was there ever any resolution to the outstanding debts that catalyst owed to their writers? When I heard about this originally I stopped buying their products. The quality of their work hasn't made me want to reconsider, I just want to know if I'm still obliged.

Black Jack Rackham · Post by **Black Jack Rackham** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:12 pm

Well I know they claim they've paid all their writers back (I got all the checks I was suppposed to). However, I can state unequivocally, that's untrue. I have yet to receive even half the books I'm owed according to my contracts (and certainly not likely to see, well, ever).

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:38 pm

I was paid for the three dinky projects I worked on that were actually published. I put quite a bit of time into a Seattle source book PDF for the 'Missions' line - it had some bits about police rivalries and a Jane's-style guide to the UCAS military presence in Seattle including the Metroplex guard. But it was aborted and I wasn't compensated for my work per my contract.

Never sign a contract that only guarantees payment upon publication.

I offered to rewrite the whacked-out Manhattan guide for 'Missions' for free and throw in some color maps as well. It would have cost Catalyst nothing if I didn't deliver. Bull was interested, and I put the maps together, but the higher ups didn't bite so that was that.

JongWK · Post by **JongWK** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:34 pm

Black Jack Rackham wrote:Well I know they claim they've paid all their writers back (I got all the checks I was suppposed to). However, I can state unequivocally, that's untrue. I have yet to receive even half the books I'm owed according to my contracts (and certainly not likely to see, well, ever).

Unless they hired another guy and didn't tell me, I was never paid for my translation of Balance of Power's rules to Spanish.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:46 pm

If there's any justice in the world, another company would buy the Intellectual Property of Shadowrun; even if it's a company with terrible game designers and less funds. Embezzlement should be a zero tolerance thing in the table-top community.

Oh well, at least Rob Boyle departed ways with the company, so I can give money to him guilt-free.

Black Jack Rackham · Post by **Black Jack Rackham** » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:36 am

JongWK wrote:
Black Jack Rackham wrote:Well I know they claim they've paid all their writers back (I got all the checks I was suppposed to). However, I can state unequivocally, that's untrue. I have yet to receive even half the books I'm owed according to my contracts (and certainly not likely to see, well, ever).
Unless they hired another guy and didn't tell me, I was never paid for my translation of Balance of Power's rules to Spanish.

And the reason for my payment is, as it was explained to me, really a fluke. My last name is Edwards and that's pretty close to the top of the payment list (this could all be bullshit but it seems to fit the facts in this case).

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:23 pm

If i had enough money for this sort of thing, i would bring Weisman and his team from SRR, Primetide and his team from SRO, the people from Pegasus Spiele(Shadowrun Germany) and Frank and Ancient and some people these parties would recommend to me together and tell them to work it out.

SRR and SRO primarly, because i realize fully well that in todays society, you have to have some interactive computery stuff going on to be kept around somewhere . .

The Idea of the Shadowrun Universe is kinda goodish, but execution was rubbish in my eyes.
I'd make Dumpshock.com a part of that at least, because it's the biggest shadowrun community online and that's something which needs to be taken into consideration . .

Basically, go for consolidation and integration and not such a big old mess of different people working on different ideas of similar stuff.

One Vision for all. One that i need not like or commit to or even accept, but one that they can compromise on and make it into something that's a great whole at least and fun for everyone involved, from the makers to the fans. If the people who make it like it and i don't, chances are good i am wrong and they are not.

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:01 pm

I would be fine with Weisman in a managerial role but he hasn't touched SR as a TTRPG since, what, second edition? It's not 1991 anymore.

Coordinating with multiple product lines is a nightmare. SR needs a clean slate both in terms of fictional continuity and game mechanics as well as fewer fingers in the pie. When you have five people developing core mechanics set you get five sets of core mechanics. Hire one developer who understands probability and one (two at most) who can turn that math into something that jives with a condensed setting. Keep those devs on any supplemental splat rule books. Develop a pool of freelancers to crank out "B" material - adventure books, setting material, etc. - keep them on a tight leash and get a good editorial review process in place. Have the video game team(s) translate that material into a digital format.

I'm fine with open source play testing so long as it isn't a marketing stunt. But RPGs mechanics aren't that complicated and if your game requires six-to-twelve months of beta testing there is something very, very wrong going on.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:59 pm

Vision is the problem. The core property is being squandered by a fanatical but dedicated crew that is completely hamstrung by leadership that can't be bothered to leverage the property they are stewards of.

More product = More money

Higher quality = More money

I know things are more complicated than that, but CGL has to be leaving money on the table. Even putting aside the folks that won't do business with them anymore because of all the ill will caused by upper management, they have simply managed to under produce themselves to the point where despite a much loved and venerable brand they are no longer a going concern.

They only see themselves through the small victories and seem to have no concern where they are ultimately taking the line. Starting an official forum and having the SR line developer put it together was both a waste of his time and strategic move to take the company a few steps from the issues caused by the owners. It had it's intended effect, even though that ultimately fractured the already dwindling online community, further polarized the fan base, failed on all levels to address the management issues while taking time and resources to work on the line away from the line developer at a crucial time in his tenure. Basically, even if Jason was the right man for the job there was no way he could have done the right thing because he was working outside his scope.

They might have saved a few bucks short term, but they lost more in the long run by stunting the growth of the line and putting the forum project in the hands of someone who isn't in charge of forum creation. Not to mention the potential security issues that were pointed out almost from the get go. I'm sure someone thought they were really savvy doing this way, or they know it's wrong but didn't see any other way to afford the cost of what they were doing. Either way it's small minded, short sighted thinking. It's fear and ignorance getting in the way of stewardship of the line.

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:45 pm

CGL seems to be re-positioning itself. Instead of being solely the House of Battletech/Shadowrun (and CthulhuTech & Eclipse Phase before those guys severed ties) they're diversifying their product line to include more non-licensed fare and board games:

1. The Cosmic Patrol RPG, which CGL own in whole, is being published under Creative Commons.
2. Leviathans, which CGL also owns, has been a big draw since nerds like steampunk and tactical miniature games. A Kickstarter is requesting funds to develop it as an online game.
3. They now have seven tabletop games in their catalog including Balance of Power.

If they're able to get a few more profitable products in their catalog Bills & Co. may decide that holding on to B-Tech and SR isn't worth the licensing fees. Weisman still owns the video game license and that's where the real money is. CGL may decide that a lackluster pen & paper game line isn't worth paying money out of pocket to hold on to. They don't seem to give a shit about it now.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:41 pm

i doubt it.
they had every chance to let go of SR when Frank blew the whistle on them.
and they did not. because they want to milk it some more still.
and just because the video games do not belong to them, the video games can and probably will bring the PnPRPG some publicity and maybe some interested newbies . . not much, granted, but it is still something . .
wether or not that is enough remains to be seen.
if it ain't enough for their liking, then, and only then, will they probably let go of the license.
at which point we arrive at a point kinda like between SR3 and SR4 with the question of who, if anybody, is going to pick it up . .
wizards of the coast?
whitewolf?
games workshop?
Mr. Weisman himself?
And do we want that to happen?
If, for example, games workshop picked it up, it would become a miniature game probably . .

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:44 am

Stahlseele wrote:If i had enough money for this sort of thing, i would bring Weisman and his team from SRR, Primetide and his team from SRO, the people from Pegasus Spiele(Shadowrun Germany) and Frank and Ancient and some people these parties would recommend to me together and tell them to work it out.

I don't think that would work out well. You've got people from different horizons, with different visions of the game and universe, and I don't know how good they all are at working in a team and being able to compromise...

Having 4 different project leaders is rarely a good idea. I'd rather have only one of them, with a team of his choosing, do the job and maybe have the other as advisers.

And anyway, I think the "One Vision" for Shadowrun is a doomed idea. There are many different ways to consider and play Shadowrun. You've got people who play it like it's still 1989, people who think it's a superhero game, people who think it's Leverage with elves, spells and cyber...

So either you take one vision and start from that and end up alienating the fans that don't share it or you try to publish a vague and genertic product that most fans will accept while regretting the times when Shadowrun was closer to their vision.