Magic Numbers

[Caedrus]

RPGs are by definition more open ended than a board game or card game can be. This means that actions can have fuzzy inputs. While in a board game you can determine "exact" inputs, in an RPG you can't. And that gives you two options:

• Approximate the fuzzy inputs and then generate a random number.
• Have an endless argument about how slick pavement is or whatever the fuck every time you have a borderline result.

Even Munchhausen has an RNG to resolve borderline cases generated by fuzzy inputs and fundamental disagreements.

-Username17

That's another reason why the conversation is made more interesting. You can't approach different mediums the same way, and of course the best answers for pen and paper RPGs are going to be different.

Anyways, even if you're not talking about removing randomness entirely, there are different ways of approaching or implementing randomness, or manipulating the role that randomness plays, and I think that's a very potentially interesting area of discussion.

[ModelCitizen]

But what if we went beyond the idea of dice-based RNGs? What if we had systems where you had to worry more about the next piece in the pattern, adapting correctly to new and dynamic situations, guessing the enemy's next move, or, in cases where there is randomization, making it something that's a bit more under your control (such as being able to draw a hand of cards and then decide how they're used), such as the way Hero Academy lends variety to its matches? Mind, these things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive with RNGs, but they have the potential to replace the role they fulfill, and doing so can lead to a game with deeper and more concretely rewarding strategic play. When one sits down to play, say, Culdcept Saga (I should probably pick a better example than a relatively obscure videogame series but whatever), what's more rewarding? Rolling the right numbers to land on the right space? Or the back and forth bluffing involved in battles where players try to figure out which item card (if any) will be played by their opponents and how to react to that? Bluffing the enemy into wasting his defenses or making him think he's calling your bluff then using your own items? Or using powers from your carefully constructed deck to forego or manipulate the results of rolls with idols, spells, and terrain effects?

Card-game RPGs never seem to get past brainstorming because of several problems:

Card-counting and body language. The skill cap for Poker is way higher than the skill cap for Craps. Usually when this is pointed out, almost everyone involved realizes that they personally aren't good at poker (most people aren't) and don't want to deal with another player or GM who is.

Probabilities are harder to calculate (or Card Counting Mk II). The average TTRPG designer can't be trusted to figure out that exploding step dice or White Wolf botches are a bad idea; I don't want to see how they think cards work when every card drawn changes the probabilities for the next card. If someone who can do basic math gets to write the Rules section, they will probably call for a lot of shuffling at very specific times. GMs won't get why they should do it (even especially if it's explained to them) so they won't.

Card Bloat and Collectibility: If cards are going to produce results that reflect what you're actually doing (i.e. if the item cards you mentioned have actual rules for items and you don't have to look up on a table that seven of hearts is a Bag of Devouring) then there are going to be a ginormous fuckton of cards. Anything which doesn't have a card will be regarded by players as "not part of the game" (although fanboys will scream like chimps in heat if you tell them that in an argument) so you seriously need thousands of the fucking things. Obviously this is going to cost some serious fucking money to print, so it's going to cost a lot to play too. I can't see any way the cards wouldn't be collectible, and having to buy booster packs to play the character you want turns people off.


I don't think it's possible to make a card-based RPG that isn't a card game first and an RPG a distant second. I wish it was possible, because the idea of "character decks" where every skill perk and item is a card seems really cool. I just don't see how it could work. Every time I imagine how it would work I imagine that all the cards I want to exist just magically do, and there's no way to make that happen.

[tussock]

2nd edition D&D got into carding up everything when Magic was the hot new thing.

Spell cards, one box Cleric, one Wizard, Psi power cards, NPC cards, item cards, encounter cards, and finally the Dragonlance 5th age thing with actual card-based "D&D" character generation and play. They'd have done monster cards, but 2e monsters are all full-page jobs full of ecologies and social structure.

Hell, I used to make my own when I did a lot of custom treasure. Hand out hand-drawn cards of the items found, with space for the player to fill in details later, back when figuring out what the magic stuff you just found could do was part of the fun.


But for task resolution it's dice and special pleading all the way. That shit works, especially the dice. Saves people getting all butt-hurt, because rolling your own dice always feels fair (even if the 13 misses, that's a good wake-up call).

[shadzar]

actually since people were making index cards with spells on them TSR was making the card a year PRIOR to MtGs 1993 release.

D&D monster cards were as early as 1982, the same year SJG released the card game Illuminati.

Even the early 90s had D&D trading cards similar to the 80s Garbage Pail Kids cards.

[ckafrica]

Anyone looked at 6d6rpg as a apparently card based rpg?

[ModelCitizen]

6d6 appears to be a die-based stat+skill game. It does have a character deck instead of a character sheet (with at least one gimmick related to that - when you take damage you "discard" stats instead of marking off hitpoints) but it doesn't use a deck of cards as an RNG.

[fectin]

WoW TCG is probably the closest you could come to an actual deck building RPG. It does a good job, especially once they added raid decks, but I don't really see it replacing dnd.

[codeGlaze]

WoW TCG is probably the closest you could come to an actual deck building RPG. It does a good job, especially once they added raid decks, but I don't really see it replacing dnd.

People actually play that?

[codeGlaze]

I've been thinking about what I said earlier about rolling toHit and damage together somehow.

At least for melee combat I could see it 'solve' a few problems, like when you roll really well to hit... then roll a 1.

But on the other end of the spectrum, it also prevents people from just *barely* hitting and rolling awesome damage.

Then there's scaling, what about people with good BAB vs bad BAB?

The initial concept stems from a simple premise of:
Level 1 mook has a toHit(TH) of 6. Anyone can roll that, that's sort of the point.

1-5 misses and does no damage.

Presuming no benefit to hit @ level 1 (BAB: 0) :

Roll

d4

d6

d8

d10 [row color=#963634 fontSIZE=150] 1

0

0

0

0 [row color=#963634 fontSIZE=150] 2

0

0

0

0 [row color=#c0590f fontSIZE=150] 3

0

0

0

0 [row color=#c0590f fontSIZE=150] 4

0

0

0

0 [row color=#e28918 fontSIZE=150] 5

0

0

0

0 [row color=#e28918 fontSIZE=150] 6

1

1

1

1 [row color=#fbbe21 fontSIZE=150] 7

1

1

2

2 [row color=#fbbe21 fontSIZE=150] 8

1

2

2

3 [row color=#ffff66 fontSIZE=150] 9

2

2

3

4 [row color=#ffff66 fontSIZE=150] 10

2

3

3

5 [row color=#ffff66 fontSIZE=150] 11

2

3

4

6 [row color=#ffff66 fontSIZE=150] 12

2

4

4

6 [row color=#e2dd24 fontSIZE=150] 13

3

4

5

7 [row color=#e2dd24 fontSIZE=150] 14

3

4

5

7 [row color=#b7c91b fontSIZE=150] 15

3

5

6

8 [row color=#b7c91b fontSIZE=150] 16

3

5

6

8 [row color=#59b00e fontSIZE=150] 17

4

5

7

9 [row color=#59b00e fontSIZE=150] 18

4

6

7

9 [row color=#2ca306 fontSIZE=150] 19

4

6

8

10 [row color=#2ca306 fontSIZE=150] 20

4

6

8

10

As I mentioned above, there are obvious problems. But is it viable and/or worth looking to make work? Or is it just a terrible idea?

edit: can you control column widths and stuff?

[tussock]

There's totally systems to roll hit and damage into one check, usually with some sort of simple damage pool or condition track for wounds, rather than inflating hit points.

Unless combat doesn't matter in your game, at all, and you just need to simplify it, by replacing a dice+ check with a bigger, more complex rule. Which also wouldn't work.