The Shadowrun Situation

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:57 am

there's a reason why i refused all promotions into management positions . .
i have ideas i think are pretty neat but everybody else thinks won't work . .

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:19 pm

Stahlseele wrote:the question of who, if anybody, is going to pick it up...

Topps still owns the license so I see only two realistic options and two far shots:

Realistic
1. Fantasy Flight as they have the capital, marketing and production capacity.
2. FASA. Paying licensing fees for the property he created might be a bitter pill for Weisman to swallow but if SR:Returns is a successful venture it might be a good investment.

Unlikely but possible
3. Mongoose. Their production values are shoddy and their business is shadier than CGL's but they've always been a bit of a dark horse. And they do handle some recognizable licenses and legacy games.
4. Paizo. They have the capacity but Pathfinder is their focus and dipping into the SR/urban fantasy market might not be worth the effort.

99% of White Wolf's focus is electronic games, Games Workshop only does tabletop wargames (hence why FFG publishes WH TTRPGs under license), and WotC's betting on the CCG market with a little bit of D&D sprinkled in.

Blade wrote:And anyway, I think the "One Vision" for Shadowrun is a doomed idea. There are many different ways to consider and play Shadowrun. You've got people who play it like it's still 1989, people who think it's a superhero game, people who think it's Leverage with elves, spells and cyber...

So either you take one vision and start from that and end up alienating the fans that don't share it or you try to publish a vague and genertic product that most fans will accept while regretting the times when Shadowrun was closer to their vision.

SR has always been street level combat mixed with urban fantasy. It doesn't matter where those streets are, what type of campaigns people run or how they view the setting, that's the core around which the game spins. Especially from a mechanics standpoint. As soon as capital ship naval skirmishes, tank combat and every other goal post moving concept that SR3 and SR4 introduced comes into play that's when the rules crack.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:01 pm

Wesley wrote:SR has always been street level combat mixed with urban fantasy. It doesn't matter where those streets are, what type of campaigns people run or how they view the setting, that's the core around which the game spins. Especially from a mechanics standpoint. As soon as capital ship naval skirmishes, tank combat and every other goal post moving concept that SR3 and SR4 introduced comes into play that's when the rules crack.

I would add "espionage" to that. It's always been man (street level combat) meets magic (urban fantasy) and machine (near future espionage). But while I will admit that tank combat and naval skirmishes has always failed, not every moving goalpost concept has. Shadowbeat had stuff for being news crews and rock stars, and that went over fine.

The reasons that heavy vehicle combat rules have always sucked are:

Shadowrun's combat rounds are too short. This is totally noticeable even when you're doing normal "finish the fight before the cops arrive" scenarios, because it it is physically impossible for any conceivable fight to not be over 20 rounds before guards could be plausibly mobilized from inside the building. But it gets really ridiculous when you're talking about actual long ranges or heavy machinery. Because then you get players using equipment where the time of flight or warm up time is measured in multiple rounds and the entire simulation collapses. But Shadowrun needs a longer combat turn anyway because alarms are supposed to matter.
Shadowrun's damage rules fall apart at the high end. This doesn't have to be the case, it just is. In SR1-3, the variable TN system just shat itself in the double digits, but in SR4 that's gone. In SR4, the non-sclaing damage boxes create a "two shot problem" that gets really absurd for large weapons and targets. But if you used SR4's fixed target numbers and SR 1-3's scaling damage boxes, this wouldn't be a problem at all.

I really don't think it's conceptually difficult to make the combat rules of Shadowrun incorporate helicopters and tanks. It's just that you have to write that in from the beginning and so far none of the authors of any of the editions have happened to do that. But they could. And doing it for the 5th edition seems like a no-brainer.

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:06 pm

maybe if someone else was in charge, but if the same people keep it for the next version, i think you might be giving them a bit too much credit . .

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:28 pm

Wesley Street wrote: SR has always been street level combat mixed with urban fantasy. It doesn't matter where those streets are, what type of campaigns people run or how they view the setting, that's the core around which the game spins.

I'm not saying it's not possible to have a common core around which every GM can make his game, but it's like cooking for a group of people where one doesn't like spice, another doesn't like salt, a third doesn't like sugar, a fourth don't like sourness and the last one doesn't like bitterness... Either you end up with a unhappy guest or with a tasteless dish.

Take the Matrix for example: 80s "Cyberspace" or Real Life computers? Eitehr way will alienate part of the fanbase, and doing a system that can do both will require a very abstract system that will put a lot on work on the GM's shoulder to give it flavor.

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:06 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:I would add "espionage" to that. It's always been man (street level combat) meets magic (urban fantasy) and machine (near future espionage). But while I will admit that tank combat and naval skirmishes has always failed, not every moving goalpost concept has. Shadowbeat had stuff for being news crews and rock stars, and that went over fine.

True but espionage can be applied across a broad spectrum of play. I lump it into almost all contemporary or near-future games. Spycraft 2.0 is supposed to be the TTRPG about espionage but the game isn't D20 Modern: Rogue's Only Edition. It's a "modern" combat system. SR magic, while still shiny new, is treated as a quantifiable pseudo-science that's easily applied to combat and espionage techniques.

I liked Shadowbeat and I adapted the "band" rules into a SR4 campaign. Where SB succeeded (or at least avoided failure) was that that the rules it provided stood so far away enough from SR1's core mechanical concepts that it felt more like a very simple side game. And, conceptually there's less of a difference between Jem & The Holograms and Ghost-Who-Walks & Co. than Ghost-Who-Walks & Co. and Seal Team Six.

Blade wrote:Take the Matrix for example: 80s "Cyberspace" or Real Life computers? Eitehr way will alienate part of the fanbase, and doing a system that can do both will require a very abstract system that will put a lot on work on the GM's shoulder to give it flavor.

Alienating a fan base should never be a worry when developing a game. Marvel zombies hated Ultimate Spider-Man but Ultimate Spider-Man has been the best selling Spider-Man title for the past decade and drew in new readers in what was a shrinking market and was one of the lightning strikes that charged Marvel Comics to prominence.

Mechanics and setting need to be in service to the core concept - post-modern urban fantasy combat/espionage/crime shenanigans. SR4 is arguably the most successful of the SR editions and it ditched the decks, Ziggy Stardust garb and Dick Tracy wrist phones. It didn't say those things never existed, just that they weren't going to talk about them... at least until the whole 2050 "future retro wank" bullshit started.

If you're going to do a post-modern game it needs to be post-modern from the viewpoint of the player base. If you want to do a weird retro-future thing where the last twenty years of computing technology never happened and the Soviet Union is still around you can do that - see Image Comics' "The Red Star". I might even want to play it. But if you slap an urban fantasy label on top of that you get a gray soup mess.

I'm not an engineer so I don't know how accurate Eclipse Phase's computer technology predictions are but in my mind that's the direction SR should go - virtual mind spaces are still a thing but practical or illegal computing is handled primarily via Augmented Reality. I shouldn't have to jack into the Matrix and float around on a green-on-black grid to transfer money from checking into savings.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:19 pm

Jem and the Holograms is a completely viable concept for shadowrun!

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:42 pm

Stahlseele wrote:Jem and the Holograms is a completely viable concept for shadowrun!

Wasn't there a charismatic rock god like concept back in 1st or 2nd edition of Shadowrun?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:54 pm

Shadowbeat to be exact, which is what Mr.Street was just writing about.
And in Shadowrun, you can have 3 dimensional Holograms, so you'd just need a Character named Jem(probably a Decker[no, Hackers suck]) to control them. And they would be Mostly Harmless.

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:57 pm

Previn wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:Jem and the Holograms is a completely viable concept for shadowrun!
Wasn't there a charismatic rock god like concept back in 1st or 2nd edition of Shadowrun?

There was a rocker archetype in the original Big Blue Book but it was tweaked into an espionage-style "face" by third edition. My 1st ed. experience was 20 years ago but I don't remember the rocker being a particularly effective character concept using the rules as written. I believe in Cyberpunk 2020 the rocker had some sort of "power of the people/populism" advantage but that doesn't meld with the deniable operative idea behind plain vanilla SR.

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:39 pm

Wesley Street wrote: There was a rocker archetype in the original Big Blue Book but it was tweaked into an espionage-style "face" by third edition. My 1st ed. experience was 20 years ago but I don't remember the rocker being a particularly effective character concept using the rules as written. I believe in Cyberpunk 2020 the rocker had some sort of "power of the people/populism" advantage but that doesn't meld with the deniable operative idea behind plain vanilla SR.

It would be pretty sweet to have a rock god(dess) as a henchman, if you're a deniable operative. Not to actually take them along on runs, of course, but to have them go somewhere else and make a lot of noise while you're doing a run so as to focus attention anywhere other than where you are. Or get them to have a splashy breakup with their current boyfriend to push something you don't want people to see off the front pages. But as an actual character, yeah, I'm dubious.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:51 pm

talozin wrote:It would be pretty sweet to have a rock god(dess) as a henchman, if you're a deniable operative. Not to actually take them along on runs, of course, but to have them go somewhere else and make a lot of noise while you're doing a run so as to focus attention anywhere other than where you are. Or get them to have a splashy breakup with their current boyfriend to push something you don't want people to see off the front pages. But as an actual character, yeah, I'm dubious.

Shadowrun posits legwork periods before and after major dungeon crawls, and a character's status as a "rocker" could plausibly play in that playground. A rocker's ability to smuggle technical equipment across borders could be as much of a pre-run legwork contribution as astral recon or "asking around". A rocker's ability to publicize accusations or push stories off the front page by starting a new news cycle could be as much of a post-run wrapup ability as the medical training to patch up bullet holes or the technical expertise to improve the team ban.

Shadowrun provided that niche, but it never really delivered rules for it.

-Username17

unnamednpc · Post by **unnamednpc** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:06 pm

So, anyone got any speculation what cataclysmic non-event will sort of occur when that gimmicky countdown on CGL's website is counted... down?
(Y'know, on Dec 21st, 2012, hurr hurr)
There is even a video teaser for it.

It's not even on their official channel, but on Randall "I got Loren Coleman's greedy back, yo" Bills's channel? WTF?
Also, it looks cheap as all fuck. Par for the course, I guess.

So.
Is it 5th edition?
Or worse?
What could be worse?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:25 pm

It's made out of clip art from pieces that were commissioned for 4th edition by FanPro. So "cheap as fuck" doesn't even cover it. It's a youtube video that is made out recycled art.

As to the announcement itself, I imagine that they are going to set themselves a new overly ambitious release schedule for the reboot materials that are supposed to tie in to the computer game's free publicity. But considering that they are now four years behind the original development schedule, I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:48 pm

and as far as i remember, both new SR PC Games have put the release date further back as well.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:07 am

http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/downloa ... dowrun.pdf
SR TCG
SR5
SR Tactical Miniature Game
SR Boardgame

SRO
SRR

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:37 pm

Stahlseele wrote:http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/downloa ... dowrun.pdf
SR TCG
SR5
SR Tactical Miniature Game
SR Boardgame

SRO
SRR

Reading some of those quotes gave me the impression that they looked at D&DN and said to themselves 'when it comes to ruining a beloved franchise we will not be outdone!'. Can Hardy, Coleman and Bills beat Mearls at his own game? Whoever wins, we lose.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:12 pm

I wonder how teribad Shadowrun 5th is going to be.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:16 pm

Seeing how it's still Catalyst?
badong i guess.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:28 pm

Basically all of that looks good on paper, using the SR Ip in many different but related ways. Great. Who is doing it? Catalyst? Riiiight. None of that will be released this dacade anyway... and even if, who still thinks they can pull it of?

This looks so bad like they just now realised how popular SR still is thanks to all the money SRO and SRR get. So sad. Could have been their money to buy more houses and yachts with.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:14 pm

i want:
SR3 variable TN
SR3 Skill System with Pools
SR3 Armor and Damage-System.
Everything else i don't care about, so that can stay how it is in SR4 for all i care <.<

And the german SR Publisher, Pegasus Spiele, also is BIG in Card-Games and Board-Games and MiniatureGames, so that would be a Jackpot right there for them . .

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:35 pm

Stahlseele wrote:i want:
SR3 variable TN

Why?

Why the fuck would you want that? Variable Target Numbers are bad, and you should feel bad for wanting them. They do not add a single thing to the system except confusion.

You personally can't even accurately describe what they do to the probabilities of things happening, why would you think that they made the outputs of the game system superior in any way at all?

-Username17

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:11 pm

Juton wrote:
Reading some of those quotes gave me the impression that they looked at D&DN and said to themselves 'when it comes to ruining a beloved franchise we will not be outdone!'. Can Hardy, Coleman and Bills beat Mearls at his own game? Whoever wins, we lose.

Rob Heinsoo, lead designer of 4E.

James Lin. Head of NOT MAGIC collectible card games at wizards.

Wov. What a fucking dream team, Catalyst.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:27 pm

Not sure if this be the best place to ask it, but how do you go about building encounters in Shadowrun? Though I suppose it happens bit more organically than walking into a room, fighting X guards of X professional rating, but all the same, don't recall the core book being rather solid to how many should fight. Though I guess because since the lethal combat makes that hard, if there's more NPC's than PC's in a fire fight, someone is probably going down, or getting severely injured otherwise?

sabs wrote:I wonder how teribad Shadowrun 5th is going to be.

Same here, best I can hope for, is Frank releases the Cyberpunk heartbreaker, and it blows Shadowrun out of the water, and into Aerospace.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:58 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:i want:
SR3 variable TN
Why?

Why the fuck would you want that? Variable Target Numbers are bad, and you should feel bad for wanting them. They do not add a single thing to the system except confusion.

You personally can't even accurately describe what they do to the probabilities of things happening, why would you think that they made the outputs of the game system superior in any way at all?

-Username17

personal preference, is all.
i'd rather have TN's that go from 2 to 20 than have dice pools that go from -10 to +40 in some cases . .

As for Encounters in SR:
Mr.Johnsons Little Blackbook or however the Auftraggeberhandbuch is called in english had a random encounter table, if i remember correctly.
also, a kind of roll up run system.