'mundane-flavored superpowers'

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:25 am

Lord Mistborn wrote:So can anyone give me a compelling reason that high level mundane types should get "mundane superpowers" instead of facing reality and having them switch to a powersource that isn't asinine.

Does being made of nanites that shapeshift into appropriate tools for the situation on demand count as "Mundane superpowers?" I could see an argument that a higher-powered version of Shadowrun might want nonmagical options for Prime Runners or whatever.

The wizard can turn into lightning and fly through space, but the nano-engineer can make a spaceship in a junkyard.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:39 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Does being made of nanites that shapeshift into appropriate tools for the situation on demand count as "Mundane superpowers?"

No, that's the SCIENCE! powersource

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:58 am

I guess I don't pay enough attention to superhero stuff.

When I was thinking about how I'd make a non-terrible game inspired by Cthulhutech, I tried drafting a list of classes something like this:

- Supersoldier: a cyborg who can take light tank rounds and keep moving. Tiny reactor inside of body powers regenerating plasma shields and can also be used to power stuff that fits the Supersoldier's spinal USB ports. The Supersoldier is really good at demolition, piloting vehicles, and resisting mental trauma/psychic attack. Can wield heavy weapons without setting them up in place, but that's inaccurate enough that it's only good against stuff tank-size and up.
- Wizard: is kind of squishy, but has a bunch of funky rituals that do specific things, some of which are assumed to have modern improvements. As example, the wizard can throw a spear that never misses, and usually duct-tapes a C4 charge to it. Can raise the dead, and automatically comes back as a ghost capable of rezzing himself with a little help. Restocks on prepared magic (including no-miss javelins) between missions.
- Nano-engineer: Great at hacking, can instantly assemble equipment off of a list at the cost of nano-juice that gets replenished. Moderately easy to take out, but hard to finish off because the brain is stored in a cloud and the body can repair itself.
- Psychic: Telekinetically block bullets, perform martial arts at range, flip switches behind shields or bulletproof glass. Mess with people's brains more effectively than many Mythos monsters. Telepathically attack monsters too, but less effectively. Set things on fire with your brain. If critically injured or crippled, transfer your mind into a clean clone between missions.

Does the Supersoldier sound like a mundane-powered character that can compete in this context?

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:03 am

The Supersoldier is the only non-immortal one.

Sometimes people go on about how the mundane character should be able to compete without magic items; technological items are essentially the same thing, so those people are clearly not satisfied.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:05 am

Mask De H wrote:Lago, your examples aren't Charles Atlas Superpowers.

To me, a Charles Atlas Superpower is one that:

[*] Is directly and specifically not tied to any phlebtonium.

[*] Is directly and specifically not supposed to be natural or even preternatural.

[*] Is obtained by doing something that mundane humans would do to accomplish ordinary preternatural feats, but under certain circumstances can go into blatantly impossible territory.

Rokushiki is based on superstrength. Superstrength in One Piece is obtained through effort and exercise. Unless Oda retcons it so that superstrength from mundane effort and exercise isn't a 'just because' thing in that universe then it's a Charles Atlas Superpower.

Like I mentioned, One Piece isn't a perfect exemplar of that paradigm. But it provides a credible model.

Mask De H wrote:Because it's all well and good if you can cut a mountain in half, but what do you do when you reach a challenge you can't reasonably cut?

You simulate flight by infinite double jumps, read people's minds by studying their body language, use meditation and drums to see the future, etc..

I'm not a fan of Haki because it seems like an attempt to shoehorn crazy shit the protagonists will do from now on into a phlebtonium'd source. But even before Haki we had Geppou and Mantra. For several years before, even.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:07 am

Foxwarrior wrote:The Supersoldier is the only non-immortal one.

Sometimes people go on about how the mundane character should be able to compete without magic items; technological items are essentially the same thing, so those people are clearly not satisfied.

Yeah. The supersoldier is the hardest PC to take down, but is generally harder to bring back, especially if you don't have a Wizard with the right magic salts to raise dead.

If people want normal people to do missions next to Master Chief and the guy from Psy-Ops: the Mindgate Conspiracy, I'm not sure what to say.

That almost certainly won't work.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:09 am

This is sort of ancillary to the point in order to have a balance class based system that even remotely resembles the modern d20 structure you have to throw the class D&D class asumptions out the window. You can't have a class that doesn't get pletobium or classes like the wizard that have all the spells (all of them).

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:03 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:To me, a Charles Atlas Superpower is one that:

[*] Is directly and specifically not tied to any phlebtonium.

[*] Is directly and specifically not supposed to be natural or even preternatural.

[*] Is obtained by doing something that mundane humans would do to accomplish ordinary preternatural feats, but under certain circumstances can go into blatantly impossible territory.

I'm curious, would you count someone like Flex Mentallo as having Charles Atlas Superpowers, or does Muscle Mystery count as phlebtonium?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:06 am

Imagine for the moment that you have two powers that are literally 100% identical except that one of them is Phlebtonium based and the other isn't. For this purpose, let's imagine that it is an attack that does an amount of damage to all the targets in a line. Your Phlebtonium version is maybe a disintegration ray or lightning bolt, and your non-Phlebtonium version runs over and stabs everyone with a knife and then jumps backwards like a Final Fantasy character or maybe shoots an arrow through everyone like a Diablo II Amazon. Or whatever.

As long as you're playing a computer game like Disgaea or Neverwinter Nights, these two effects are identical. There are defined targets, and you damage all of them in a line either way. As long as you're playing a board game like Strange Synergy or 4th Edition D&D, same deal. There are defined targets and you damage all of them in a line.

But let's say you're playing an actual honest to goodness open ended role playing game. Now you can go define your own targets. You can point at a rock face and announce that you want to use your power to tunnel. And now it falls into the lap of the MC to adjudicate the effects of your ability. If you're using a bolt of power, you probably aren't going to get much pushback. If your beam of eldritch might does enough to overcome the hardness of the rock, it'll just burrow on through and you have an instant tunnel in the rock. On the other hand, if you are shooting arrows or juggling knives, your MC is not going to rule that way. You're going to hit the rock as a whole as a single target, and then you're going to make a rather unfortunately short dimple in the stone. I can virtually guaranty you that this will happen, because I've seen it happen. If you think back on it, you've probably seen it happen too because it's a pretty common example.

Exactly the same ability mechanically, but the lack flavor text that elevates it to superhuman action means that the very instant it comes to an MC judgement call you are being restrained by whatever the MC's predispositions about what "real humans can do" are. Charles Atlas super powers cannot compete in a wide variety of roles because they cannot be used to knot cut in many scenarios where phlebtonium powers can.

There are of course exceptions. As previously noted, it is quite possible to have nominally non-magical diplomacy and stealth abilities that remain valid when people around you are doing "high level stuff". But even then I would urge caution: think about all the pushback that D&D Diplomacy gets that D&D charm monster doesn't get. Think about all of Andy Collins' stealth nerfs to Hide that he never would have even considered dumping on invisibility.

-Username17

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:05 pm

The tragic part of this pushback is that all too often people lean towards curbing the parts of the game that the medium does so much better than videogames (such as knot cutting abilities that sword powers don't really compete with), rather than trying to push the envelope of the fighter.

I find that troubling, because those are exactly the sorts of features that I feel pen and paper RPGs should be capitalizing on in order to compete for people's attention with Smash Bros: Things this medium does a lot better than videogames. Pen and paper RPGs don't need to keep you on a path, they don't need to define your targets, or limit the situational creative possibilities for superpowers / knotcutting, or limit themselves by any sort of effects budget. Forsaking such advantages seems to defeat the point of working with this medium. And yet a certain cast of people fight back when you suggest that a high level Barbarian can do what similar character archetypes can do without anyone questioning it in a videogame environment (Kratos throws thunderbolts, barbarians in Torchlight summon ancestral spirits, et cetera).

The pushback seems much less pronounced in Science Fiction settings, however, since people don't seem to demand that elite veteran special operatives be utterly ignorant of the sufficiently advanced technology used to wage wars, yet seem to have a sort of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the exact same character archetype in a high magic fantasy setting.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:36 pm

@Phlebtonium. Playing in 2nd edition D&D, there is so much Wild-magic and Dead-magic and "magic is special here" places that magic is in itself phlebtonium. Shit, you have a random chance to learn whichever spells the DM wishes you might get a chance to, and the game designers pretended for ten years there was nothing wrong with 2e Stoneskin because any DM worth his salt would finish it long before the first serious encounter (which simply is not true).

Now? 4e expects fighter powers to just work, and no one actually cock-blocked them at all that I heard of. 3e has a thing where magic always works and martial has a whole lot of conditions, but you don't have to flavour it that way. DMs hated on magic in 2e and hated on martial in 3e, because that's the way they were written.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:40 pm

So would a rogue's evasion be considered a charles atlas superpower?

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:09 pm

ishy wrote:So would a rogue's evasion be considered a charles atlas superpower?

a rogue's evasion is a bizare game abstraction.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:58 pm

A Rogue's Evasion is a great example of a Charles Atlas Superpower and also a great example of why Charles Atlas Superpowers will never be good in a role playing game.

Evasion lets you take no damage when you would have taken half damage. That could have been a magical forcefield or the protection of invisible spirits or whatever, but in this particular case it is defined as Phlebtonium-free. What are the consequences of the fact that it has no associated Phlebtonium instead of having some sort of phlebtomic source?

First of all, it means that people bitch about it working in confined spaces; like all the damn time. If it was a magical forcefield, instead of being constantly under threat of having MCs throw a fit and take your Evasion away because "it doesn't seem realistic for it to work in this situation", it would just work as printed all the damn time and MCs would never give you any shit about it.

Secondly, it means that it can never be used for anything more than what it says it can be used for. If you had a magical forcefield that protected you from all damage when you made your save, you could plausibly argue that you should be able to use it to hold things that are on fire or protect valuable documents with your body or something. In various non-combat situations where saving throws weren't specifically required, you could make a plausible sounding argument that your forcefield should help you in some way and sometimes the MC would agree.

In short: the fact that a Rogue's Evasion ability has no associated Phlebtonium means that it is in actual play only as good as its literal combat text or less. While if it was written with associated Phlebtonium it would in actual play be as good as its literal combat text or more.

Caedrus wrote:The pushback seems much less pronounced in Science Fiction settings, however, since people don't seem to demand that elite veteran special operatives be utterly ignorant of the sufficiently advanced technology used to wage wars, yet seem to have a sort of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the exact same character archetype in a high magic fantasy setting.

I would argue that this is because in most Science Fiction settings, pretty much every character is actually accessing the same Phlebtonium source: Science! Pretty much anyone can science the tech to achieve whatever can be achieved in the setting, so there isn't a Phlebtonium gap between characters.

Those settings which do have a Phlebtonium gap tend to treat everyone without the favored Phlebtonium as second class citizens. For example: in Star Wars, very little is ever accomplished or accomplishable by sciencing the tech, so if you aren't a Jedi you'd better have some pretty comfortable knee pads.

-Username17

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:14 pm

Okay, I think I definitely get your point Frank. As an MC, I have chosen to auto-fail NPC reflex saves when the PCs fireball them in a surprise round, even though there's no base for that in the rules. Abilities based on real human capabilites do have a significant weakness to fiat.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:25 am

And to expound on Frank's point, I'd say the other example used to justify mundanes with powers (anime) also puts the important characters on a Phlebotinum power source. There's always some gimmick like Ki or Nen or Chakra and if there isn't, it gets introduced later (Haki in One Piece, for example).

In some cases, characters are just born superhuman or otherwise superior enough to survive/perform the Charles Atlas shell game that is the training montage. Or the powers are just flashier versions of real things (pick a sports manga that isn't straight-up realistic).

Tumbling Down · Post by **Tumbling Down** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:38 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Exactly the same ability mechanically, but the lack flavor text that elevates it to superhuman action means that the very instant it comes to an MC judgement call you are being restrained by whatever the MC's predispositions about what "real humans can do" are. Charles Atlas super powers cannot compete in a wide variety of roles because they cannot be used to knot cut in many scenarios where phlebtonium powers can.

Yeah that's what I figured. I like to think of Flex Mentallo as level 20 Charles Atlas Superpowers, but of course it only got there by turning into real phlebtonium at some point.

FrankTrollman wrote:I would argue that this is because in most Science Fiction settings, pretty much every character is actually accessing the same Phlebtonium source: Science! Pretty much anyone can science the tech to achieve whatever can be achieved in the setting, so there isn't a Phlebtonium gap between characters.

Well, I would say that it's because no one ever demands to play a luddite in a sci-fi game or throw a tantrum when they're rebuffed. No one would also ever defend those guys' disruptive behaviour or claim that Space Luddite should a playable archetype, the way they do with the Fantasy Luddite.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:00 am

I would disagree with that, actually, particularly since what constitutes a technological disadvantaged character is relative to the setting. Now, in far future games or in settings with a Roddenberry-esque attitude towards technology, yes, it's unlikely you'll get a player signing up to be the team thatcher while everyone else is solving problems via tricoder.* But the second you get into near-future settings or dial up the cynicism and roll into post-apocalyptic or cyberpunk territory, all bets are off. Such settings posit that Science! isn't always cute and cuddly or that the guys taking advantage of human augmentation are fundamentally "off" somehow, and such themes often leads to a lot of players coming to the table with the mindset that yes, they do in fact intend to abstain from phlebotinum. Which, generally means that they end up sucking somethin' awful.

*I would note, however, that people generally don't think of themselves as backwards or incompetent. Which means that sometimes you get this odd situation where people build a character with a 21st century skill set and fail to see how goddamn useless that may be in a future tech game.

ModelCitizen · Post by **ModelCitizen** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:31 am

FrankTrollman wrote: There are of course exceptions. As previously noted, it is quite possible to have nominally non-magical diplomacy and stealth abilities that remain valid when people around you are doing "high level stuff". But even then I would urge caution: think about all the pushback that D&D Diplomacy gets that D&D charm monster doesn't get. Think about all of Andy Collins' stealth nerfs to Hide that he never would have even considered dumping on invisibility.

Mind control is probably the one big counter-example: fluffing mind control as mundane persuasion makes it stronger. People will prep defenses and wear magic helmets and murder enchanters in their sleep and all sorts of other shit to get out of being Dominated, and if a Dominate gets through anyway the character won't be held responsible for his actions. If you try that shit with mundane-flavored mind control - demand to know where the Protection from Symmetrical Facial Features spell is, kill the diplomat before he can open his mouth, whatever - the DM is likely to freak out and insist that "your character wouldn't do that."

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:06 pm

What about just putting everyone, from FightyGuy to SneakyGuy to MagicyGuy on phlebotinum. The FightyGuy is, possibly unbeknownst to himself, the son of a god. The SneakyGuy is part of a long line of female warriors created through a dark magic demon binding ritual to slay demons. The MagicyGuy studies real hard (which actually technically makes the wizard the king of Charles Atlas Superpowers).

I'm wondering because, when you think about it, almost every single CAS character that doesn't break WSOD (so, not Batman) is actually huffing phlebotinum in one way or another. Kratos is a demigod, even if he doesn't know it, and that's what allows him to impale hydras on ship masts and shit. Buffy is basically hereditarily bound to a demon. Green Arrow and Hawkeye use super tech (as does Batman, but really, he has super intelligence, so...). Even the Thing and the Hulk have "Bombarded with mutagenic radiation."

edit: I know Thing and Hulk aren't CAS characters, nor are their powers mundane flavoured, but the powers themselves are mundane. They're super strong, super tough and hit things super hard. They're basically what the D&D fighter and barbarian want to be.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:53 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:[Evasion]

Okay, I'm convinced here; at least that there's a big problem, and that solving it would be a monumental task for nowhere near enough gain.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:28 pm

ModelCitizen wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: There are of course exceptions. As previously noted, it is quite possible to have nominally non-magical diplomacy and stealth abilities that remain valid when people around you are doing "high level stuff". But even then I would urge caution: think about all the pushback that D&D Diplomacy gets that D&D charm monster doesn't get. Think about all of Andy Collins' stealth nerfs to Hide that he never would have even considered dumping on invisibility.
Mind control is probably the one big counter-example: fluffing mind control as mundane persuasion makes it stronger. People will prep defenses and wear magic helmets and murder enchanters in their sleep and all sorts of other shit to get out of being Dominated, and if a Dominate gets through anyway the character won't be held responsible for his actions. If you try that shit with mundane-flavored mind control - demand to know where the Protection from Symmetrical Facial Features spell is, kill the diplomat before he can open his mouth, whatever - the DM is likely to freak out and insist that "your character wouldn't do that."

Very few games/settings/DM's actually let non-magical diplomancers replicate dominate person, usually because it's not realistic to be that persuasive. That's the sort of ability that frequently just doesn't work because DM fiat, even when used exactly as written and intended. Though yeah, if that ability shows up somewhere in play, defending yourself from it weirds people out about as much as the ability itself, and for the same reasons.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:37 pm

Whipstitch wrote:I would disagree with that, actually, particularly since what constitutes a technological disadvantaged character is relative to the setting. Now, in far future games or in settings with a Roddenberry-esque attitude towards technology, yes, it's unlikely you'll get a player signing up to be the team thatcher while everyone else is solving problems via tricoder.* But the second you get into near-future settings or dial up the cynicism and roll into post-apocalyptic or cyberpunk territory, all bets are off. Such settings posit that Science! isn't always cute and cuddly or that the guys taking advantage of human augmentation are fundamentally "off" somehow, and such themes often leads to a lot of players coming to the table with the mindset that yes, they do in fact intend to abstain from phlebotinum. Which, generally means that they end up sucking somethin' awful.

*I would note, however, that people generally don't think of themselves as backwards or incompetent. Which means that sometimes you get this odd situation where people build a character with a 21st century skill set and fail to see how goddamn useless that may be in a future tech game.

In a cyberpunk game, the unaugmented character at least has the advantage of being able to walk into an establishment that has a metal detector without staring a massive gunfight with the security.
The Street Samurai whose body is a collection of major felonies often has a difficult time fitting into polite society.

The thing is, if you want mundane characters to be useful, superpowers need to have drawbacks that come into play often enough to justify not taking any.

Consider, for example, a Vampire the Masquerade variation where all vampires are Nosferatu and half the gameplay occurs during the day. In such a situation playing as a mundane human seems not only viable, but prudent in many cases. In that sort of game, being able to walk around in broad daylight without combusting is a superpower.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:52 am

It's a tricky balance to get right though, and I'd argue that most editions had a tough time getting it right and by 4th they had for most practical purposes relegated the completely unaugmented mundo to obscurity--it just kept getting harder and harder to find good reasons why you shouldn't toss together a decent and perfectly legal headware package together.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:05 pm

@People nerf Evasion.

See, random people on the internet, and the actual pro game designers, they nerf Polymorph, Teleport, Scry, Sleep, Charm Person, all the illusions, Light, Web, Black Tentacles, pretty much everything you ever cared about, they nerf it. 3.5, 4e, Pathfinder, 5e. You use something effectively? They nerf it. Diplomancer? Infinite wishes? I don't fucking think so.

People aren't nerfing Evasion and Tumble because they're mundane flavoured, they're nerfing them because the party Rogue was using them to defeat the DM's precious NPCs.