Shitty character concepts need to die

[virgil]

Other than that, I'm not sure what you would consider to be a high-level adventure if you're discounting all fluff.

I'm honestly not sure what I consider a high level adventure at this point. I can see valid arguments from both Frank and K. Getting to the cloud castle is easier for 'high level' adventurers, but I'm really not sure how being easier makes something high level.

I'm honestly interested in what K considers to be a high-level adventure; not vague assertions of "changing the setting", but explicit abilities and examples.

[Username17]

Other than that, I'm not sure what you would consider to be a high-level adventure if you're discounting all fluff.

I'm honestly not sure what I consider a high level adventure at this point. I can see valid arguments from both Frank and K. Getting to the cloud castle is easier for 'high level' adventurers, but I'm really not sure how being easier makes something high level.

Doing something "easier" and "without sucking the MC's penis" has to be the difference between low level and high level. It has to be, because there is literally nothing that you can't do with some difficulty and the thumb's up from the DM. Literally. Nothing.

Raising the dead is the simplest example. If the MC so chooses, they can allow you a quest branch where you get to bring a dude back from the dead. The MC can do this at any level. They can give out a piece of treasure like water of life or something that will allow you to bring a dude back from the dead in the future. They can do this at any level. The MC can throw in an NPC who has the ability to bring people back from the dead, and the PCs can do stuff for that NPC or just ask them really nicely to bring a dude back from the dead. Again, this can be at any level. But all of these are contingent on Mother May I. And more importantly: all of those happen or not regardless of what kinds of abilities or power levels the PCs do or do not have. If the PCs raise the dead by any of those means, that says nothing about what the PCs can actually do. If they can raise the dead themselves without going through any of that shit, that is real power.

Being higher level means that there is more things that you can do, and equally less things that you can do "if and only if the DM puts it in your mission rewards or mission preparation hooks for this session".

-Username17

[Anguirus]

Being higher level means that there is more things that you can do, and equally less things that you can do "if and only if the DM puts it in your mission rewards or mission preparation hooks for this session".

-Username17

If we take "doing things" to mean "accomplishing goals within the setting and narrative" then it becomes pretty clear that the setting needs to have some degree of inviolability for there to even be rules that aren't ultimately "the dm tells a story while you offer suggestions". But once the setting is assumed to have a degree of inviolability your abilities, even the ostensibly pallet-swappy ones, start to matter a lot more because the world is coherent and predictable. Now you're actually doing different things when kick the door in and murder everybody at high level than at low level because the expected result from having murdered everybody is different.

Ultimately all of the door-kicking and face-punching in any session is a pretty arbitrary (or at least aesthetic) obstacle placed in your way to create dramatic tension and suspense. That's the nature of the game. We need obstacles or the stories that we create are going to suck ass but those obstacles are always going to be artificial (or at least not practical) because the game world doesn't exist except as words. However, if we make those words coherent and predictable (inviolable) then those obstacles stop feeling so arbitrary. It starts to make sense why you're kicking in this particular door and murdering these particular dudes because they demonstrably and predictably stand in the way of your goals (the scope of which we would expect to change through leveling).

Note: I'm not advocating that the only abilities that characters gain are the commonsensically pallet swap ones, but taken from the right perspective all abilities in a violable setting are pallet swaps.

I would also argue that before you can really start to have a conversation about what high and low level play look like you really need to do the setting design for similar reasons.

[Fuchs]

If you are worried about the GM not letting you ablities without sucking his cock, if you are worried about anything that needs GM permission, then you shouldn't play with that GM.

Honestly, a bad GM is a bad GM, no matter the rules. If a bad GM doesn't want you to do something, you'll not get to do it, period. It'll fail, get saved against, end up in a mess, and so on.

[Username17]

If you are worried about the GM not letting you ablities without sucking his cock, if you are worried about anything that needs GM permission, then you shouldn't play with that GM.

Honestly, a bad GM is a bad GM, no matter the rules. If a bad GM doesn't want you to do something, you'll not get to do it, period. It'll fail, get saved against, end up in a mess, and so on.

This argument boils down to "You should be able to do any adventure, beat any enemies, solve any problems, and get all the treasure and womens while being a first level Commoner". Because if you are saying that a GM is outright "bad" because they don't deliver you all the high level abilities and adventures you want despite them having no basis in what is actually written on your character sheet, then you are arguing against rules having any meaning. And arguing against there being any limits or parameters to character actions at all.

At that point, you might as well play Munchhausen. I don't know why you would even want to play a game that assigns actual character power levels to breathing water, teleporting across the continent, or raising the dead if you actually believe that the GM is a bad GM who you shouldn't play with for withholding those effects from your character until those power levels are reached.

-Username17

[DrPraetor]

This is four pages of a side-track on whether having the DM give you stuff makes high level abilities pointless? I agree that it does! Roleplaying games, like the human experience generally, are a vain and futile exercise in killing time until our inevitable death.

On more interesting questions:

now return to arguing whether it's a good idea to use different resource schemes

The problem is that while the Gryphon General can stage 1 quest to the Cloud Castle, he can't stage 1 quest to Atlantis, Niefelheim, or the heart of a volcano. The Psion Knight can, presumably by adjusting his ioun stone attunement to resonate with these other environments. The Gryphon General is not now and never ever will be a Paragon Tier character.

That was my point, really. And I don't think any of your suggestions about juggling what ioun stones can and can't do when solve the underlying issue. In order to have nice (Paragon-tier+ at the least, and probably in the heroic tier this is mostly true as well) things, you must have:
[*] Resource management
[*] Phlebtonium

And getting back to the original topic of the thread, any character concept that doesn't meet these two requirements (including, at the Paragon Tier, the Gryphon Knight) sucks and needs to die.

Now, I still think it makes life much easier to have some streamlined resource management system for the entire game, from which all the classes draw. I would suggest TWO resource management systems for each character -
1) A maneuver-control system which determines how many times you can throw glitterdust or perform a ki strike in a given combat.
1A) Some maneuvers need to be reaction/opportunity maneuvers and some maneuvers should take multiple rounds of warmup (distinct from cooldown). Reactions and multi-round warmup should not be in any way restricted to some classes (as Thieves and Assassins respectively, in your setup). Thieves and Assassins should by-all-means have more and better abilities of this type.

2) Long term resources which refresh on a per-adventure basis. You can't ordinarily "go back to town and refresh them" because doing so means you give up and fail the adventure. Long montage adventures do sometimes happen so you will need rules for exactly how long these take to refresh, but when you're doing some kind of dungeon dive it simply shouldn't be an option.

[K]

Handwaving getting to the adventure feels just as terrible as handwaving combat or anything else.
Why even have a cloud castle if nothing about it matters in the slightest.

I'm not even sure what we're supposed to be doing in an adventure anymore. From the number and variety of things that are proposed to be handwaved via declarative unopposed statements, it sounds like the typical D&D adventure takes less time than winding your way through a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book.

Pretty much this. K's claim seems to be that the ability to change what adventures are available doesn't matter because the DM could always just railroad you into an adventure anyway so you never have anything more than one adventure "available", and in any case the DM's railroad could get you into any adventure, so the ability to get to any location also doesn't matter. The ability to climb doesn't matter because if the DM wanted you to get to the top of the cliff there would be stairs. Or something.

I think instead that we're looking at Tales of the Infinite Staircase as our archetypical "Planescape" adventure. There are nine parts to this adventure, and except for the first part they can be done in any order. Basically, stage one is that you get a quest to do something about the Iron Shadow, which is a thing that is going to do bad things to a bunch of places throughout the planes, and then you do some stuff and get yourself access to the Infinite Staircase from the title. The Infinite Staircase then gives you access to eight portals that allow you to hop into any of the other adventure segments you choose in any order you want. There's some stuff that happens based on how long you take, so order matters but any order is available. That is a Planescape adventure that is semi-sandbox, but it's also a low level adventure. It is the quintessential "go to a bunch of places in the multiverse at low level" adventure that K and company have been ranting about. But it's still demonstrably different from a high level adventure.

The high level version wouldn't have the Staircase in it at all. The players wouldn't need the staircase or the portals, because they could use their own means of planar travel. So the intro to the high level version would merely give the players the target list and some information about what's going on, and then the players would be able to go to those locations on their own. And what's really important is that if they decided to, they could take some time to go to other locations of their choosing in order to do legwork. With the main cost being the same as for taking extra time to complete one of the adventure segments: the Iron Shadow advances and their rivals continue their own research for however much time they spend fucking around.

And K claims that these two adventures are the same, but he is obviously wrong.

-Username17

Those are demonstrably the same.

There are eight locations you can go to where there are going to be adventures, and having the ability to planeshift is not going to add more adventure locations.

You can totally say "I'm going to this location that is not on the list," and the DM replies "Ok, there is nothing there. What do you do?" You then proceed to do nothing because there is no adventure or encounter there.

At best, you are saying that the DM is under some kind of moral obligation to improvise an adventure or some encounters for you so that you don't feel that your ability to travel the planes at will is completely pointless. I don't like that because DM-pity abilities really shouldn't be part of any design.

And it is DM pity. Your decision to not go to one of the eight locations and then stop at the City of Brass means that the DM will have to then decide exactly how much stonewalling to give you before you will go back to the adventure. Maybe the sages you consult in the City of Brass confirm what important NPCs already told you. Maybe merchants sell equipment the DM was going to give you in some introductory encounter. Maybe he lets you rest and change spells there even though he was going to do that at the start of the first location anyway.

But that's all pity. The sages can just as easily claim ignorance, the merchants can just offer the same old stuff, and the planned encounter can not be changed at all by your time in the City of Brass.

[Username17]

You can totally say "I'm going to this location that is not on the list," and the DM replies "Ok, there is nothing there. What do you do?" You then proceed to do nothing because there is no adventure or encounter there.

OK. I'm done with this discussion. If your argument is seriously that sand boxing is literally impossible, and the DM is going to be a railroading asshat that won't let you do anything except go to the next encounter point in the prewritten script, then I don't think we are even able to have a conversation. I categorically reject this viewpoint, and I have nothing else to add.

Your trivialization of player agency is so extreme that I am honestly offended, and I'm done pretending that we are having a polite or rational conversation.

-Username17

[fectin]

Well, it sure looks like you're saying that the Infinite Staircase is low level because you use an item, but would be high level if you did the exact same adventure, except using spells instead of an item. That's a little nonsensical.

[Username17]

Well, it sure looks like you're saying that the Infinite Staircase is low level because you use an item, but would be high level if you did the exact same adventure, except using spells instead of an item. That's a little nonsensical.

It's low level because you use an item that you have to spend the first leg of the adventure to get, and the item only takes you to the areas on the list. At high level, you could not only skip the part where you get the staircase, you would also have the option of going to, for example, other Formian hives to request aid to help with the problems in the specific Formian hive that is being destroyed. Or to go get angelic weapons to help with the showdown in Baator. Or whatever because you have your own plane shifting and you don't have to specifically go to just the eight locations that an in-adventure item opens up.

-Username17

[Ice9]

Also, the problem with saying that a McGuffin allowing plane travel for the adventure and the ability to plane travel yourself are the same is that it could be applied to literally everything.

Political power? You're the long-lost heir at 1st level.
Defeating armies? Awaken the ghost king and his ghost army, at 1st level.
Alter the laws of magic? Mystra meets you, thinks you're cool, at 1st level.
Destroy an entire fucking plane? Find the secret kill-switch, at 1st level.

There's absolutely nothing out there that the DM couldn't give you, via McGuffin, assistance, or divine favor, at 1st level. So while it's technically correct that you can go on the same adventure with at-will Gate or just a series of really convenient portals, it's also a useless way to look at things.

But it does mean that trying to define a high-level adventure / ability / whatever is going to be arbitrary unless you define the broad strokes of your setting first.

[K]

If your argument is seriously that sand boxing is literally impossible, and the DM is going to be a railroading asshat that won't let you do anything except go to the next encounter point in the prewritten script, then I don't think we are even able to have a conversation

I'm arguing that travel abilities don't force the DM to play Sandbox-style. That's a completely obvious fact about travel powers.

That being said, I don't think you understand what Sandbox style really is. For example, it's not inventing a meaningful encounter for every location that the PCs choose to go to in the way that you seem to think it is. There is no point where the PCs get to go, "we've decided to wander around the woods instead. Where is our level-appropriate encounter and treasure?"

Sandbox-style gives choices about which adventures the PCs do and limits the effect of those adventures on the setting so that not doing them is not a big deal (PCs explore crypts or something and aren't offered the choice to stop zombie invasions).

Sandbox-style does not make every choice valid as you seem to think it does. NPCs don't automatically help you because you showed up with a problem they might be vaguely interested in and the DM is under no obligation to improvise adventures more complicated than "you run into some wyverns in the Wyvern Mountains. They didn't have any treasure."

[Fuchs]

If you are worried about the GM not letting you ablities without sucking his cock, if you are worried about anything that needs GM permission, then you shouldn't play with that GM.

Honestly, a bad GM is a bad GM, no matter the rules. If a bad GM doesn't want you to do something, you'll not get to do it, period. It'll fail, get saved against, end up in a mess, and so on.

This argument boils down to "You should be able to do any adventure, beat any enemies, solve any problems, and get all the treasure and womens while being a first level Commoner". Because if you are saying that a GM is outright "bad" because they don't deliver you all the high level abilities and adventures you want despite them having no basis in what is actually written on your character sheet, then you are arguing against rules having any meaning. And arguing against there being any limits or parameters to character actions at all.

At that point, you might as well play Munchhausen. I don't know why you would even want to play a game that assigns actual character power levels to breathing water, teleporting across the continent, or raising the dead if you actually believe that the GM is a bad GM who you shouldn't play with for withholding those effects from your character until those power levels are reached.

-Username17

No, my argument doesn't mean you can do everything no matter what's written on your character sheet - it means if you have a bad GM you may not be able to do anything that is written on your character sheet.

Rules do not protect you from bad GMs.

[Fuchs]

You can totally say "I'm going to this location that is not on the list," and the DM replies "Ok, there is nothing there. What do you do?" You then proceed to do nothing because there is no adventure or encounter there.

OK. I'm done with this discussion. If your argument is seriously that sand boxing is literally impossible, and the DM is going to be a railroading asshat that won't let you do anything except go to the next encounter point in the prewritten script, then I don't think we are even able to have a conversation. I categorically reject this viewpoint, and I have nothing else to add.

Your trivialization of player agency is so extreme that I am honestly offended, and I'm done pretending that we are having a polite or rational conversation.

-Username17

Can you understand that player agency is fully dependent on the GM's approval, no matter the rules? Sandboxing against the will of the GM is literally impossible. If the GM doesn't want to run an adventure in the City of Brass, then no amount of rules will make that happen.

Get off your power fantasy about player agency, and face reality: The GM is needed to run any adventure that's more than a string of random encounters. If the GM is not running the world, no one is.

The GM is essential to running the game, he picks and plays who and what the PCs interact with. Ultimately, that means what he doesn't want doesn't happen in any meaningful way.

And the whole point of this is that an ability that depends on GM approval is ok and not a bad thing for itself, since ultimately, any ability depends on GM approval.

[fectin]

Also, the problem with saying that a McGuffin allowing plane travel for the adventure and the ability to plane travel yourself are the same is that it could be applied to literally everything.

Political power? You're the long-lost heir at 1st level.
Defeating armies? Awaken the ghost king and his ghost army, at 1st level.
Alter the laws of magic? Mystra meets you, thinks you're cool, at 1st level.
Destroy an entire fucking plane? Find the secret kill-switch, at 1st level.

There's absolutely nothing out there that the DM couldn't give you, via McGuffin, assistance, or divine favor, at 1st level. So while it's technically correct that you can go on the same adventure with at-will Gate or just a series of really convenient portals, it's also a useless way to look at things.

But it does mean that trying to define a high-level adventure / ability / whatever is going to be arbitrary unless you define the broad strokes of your setting first.

Aka, "but that would mean low level characters could have high level adventures!" That's true. It's obviously true even, because it's the role of every kid sidekick ever.

If a band of high-level adventurers make you their pet, you will have high level adventures, regardless of your own puissance. That's basically what you're describing in all your scenarios.

[Fuchs]

Well, it sure looks like you're saying that the Infinite Staircase is low level because you use an item, but would be high level if you did the exact same adventure, except using spells instead of an item. That's a little nonsensical.

It's low level because you use an item that you have to spend the first leg of the adventure to get, and the item only takes you to the areas on the list. At high level, you could not only skip the part where you get the staircase, you would also have the option of going to, for example, other Formian hives to request aid to help with the problems in the specific Formian hive that is being destroyed. Or to go get angelic weapons to help with the showdown in Baator. Or whatever because you have your own plane shifting and you don't have to specifically go to just the eight locations that an in-adventure item opens up.

-Username17

God, when was the last time you actually played with a bad GM? Have you ever tried to actually do what you propose with a bad, railroady GM? "No, the angels are all busy, no one can give you any weapon" "No, the angels tell you that you need to do this yourself." "The angels save against your spell" "The angels don't like you still being around and teleport you out of their plane" "the gods don't let you plane shift to the angels again".

That's how a bad GM "works", Frank. And it doesn't matter a damn what spells you have, nothing will work with such a GM if he doesn't like it. Get off the pipe dream of beating bad GMs with hard-coded rules, it does not work.

[Ice9]

As I said in a different thread, whether hard rules can beat "bad" DMs is a red herring. It's not about DMs who are actively malevolent or terrible - you should just avoid playing with those.

It's about DMs that are most ok, but have a few issues, or a bad day, or just a derp moment. And unless you live in gaming paradise, you probably will end gaming with them. For example, one person I've played with is not exactly a railroader, but doesn't improvise well and prefers things to go along the standard path. If you try to knot-cut via MTP and leave it entirely up to his judgement, it will probably end up not working. But he respects the rules, and if you go outside the box with them, he'll accept that and deal with it. So yes, the rules can actually fix imperfect DMing, for non-extreme values of imperfect.

If a band of high-level adventurers make you their pet, you will have high level adventures, regardless of your own puissance. That's basically what you're describing in all your scenarios.

I suggest you actually read the post. None of those scenarios included help from a higher-level adventurer, unless you consider Mystra (FR goddess of magic) to be one. More in the realm of mcguffins/destiny, really. Also - what is your point?

[Kaelik]

Can you understand that player agency is fully dependent on the GM's approval, no matter the rules? Sandboxing against the will of the GM is literally impossible. If the GM doesn't want to run an adventure in the City of Brass, then no amount of rules will make that happen.

Get off your power fantasy about player agency, and face reality: The GM is needed to run any adventure that's more than a string of random encounters. If the GM is not running the world, no one is.

The GM is essential to running the game, he picks and plays who and what the PCs interact with. Ultimately, that means what he doesn't want doesn't happen in any meaningful way.

And the whole point of this is that an ability that depends on GM approval is ok and not a bad thing for itself, since ultimately, any ability depends on GM approval.

Okay you complete fucking idiot shithead retard facerat.

Now we are playing with a good DM so you can go eat all the dicks and stop bringing up something no one the fuck else was talking about.

Now Frank is saying that there are things that you can do at level 1 by asking the DM for a quest pretty please at level 1 to go find some magic beans of waterbreathing, but that you can just do yourself with your own abilities.

That is the difference between what Frank is calling high level or low level.

Now, how the fuck is bad DMs even remotely relevant? Good DMs let you cast waterbreathing. Good DMs don't just let you walk into a fucking lake because you feel like it and breathe because you want to.

So good DMs, and not bad DMs, treat high level characters with the ability to do things differently than low level characters who don't have those abilities.

Good DMs don't railroad you by saying that all the Formian Queens don't care about that hive, but they also don't let you just go to a place you don't have a portal because you decided you want to.

So eat all the dicks and stop whining about how bad DMs ignore the rules and therefore make high level the same as low level.

We are not playing with bad DMs, so if you can't find a reason to disagree with Frank's characterization of high level vs low level as played under a good DM, just say "Yes Frank, you are completely right about the difference between the two." and then go eat all the dicks.

[Previn]

Now Frank is saying that there are things that you can do at level 1 by asking the DM for a quest pretty please at level 1 to go find some magic beans of waterbreathing, but that you can just do yourself with your own abilities.

Using 3.5 as an example, the players can totally decide they're going to go on an underwater adventure and they can seriously just go buy a scroll of water breathing and use it even at 1st level.

Given that getting the DM to 'allow' or forcing them to allow you to do something because 'it's in the rules' seems to me to have no relationship at all to level, let alone defining high level from low level.

[Kaelik]

Now Frank is saying that there are things that you can do at level 1 by asking the DM for a quest pretty please at level 1 to go find some magic beans of waterbreathing, but that you can just do yourself with your own abilities.

Using 3.5 as an example, the players can totally decide they're going to go on an underwater adventure and they can seriously just go buy a scroll of water breathing and use it even at 1st level.

Given that getting the DM to 'allow' or forcing them to allow you to do something because 'it's in the rules' seems to me to have no relationship at all to level, let alone defining high level from low level.

If players can actually afford the scrolls of waterbreathing that the want to use, then 1) That is an ability, the same as the ability to own a sword by buying it. 2) As the low level option, it comes with all the handicaps attached, IE going to a specific place to buy it, spending money, and limited access.

1) Is important because Frank is not talking about forcing the DM to follow the rules, he is assuming the DM will follow the rules, and do lots of other things that good DMs do. He is saying that the high level vs low level difference is the difference between being dependent on someone outside your character to perform the actions vs something your character can just do whenever, and the skipping of the associated middlework.

[Fuchs]

And as we were talking about earlier, at high level, the ability to purchase whatever damn travel service you want is the same as buying a sword and using it at low level. And at high level that means you can just do that stuff, unless your DM is a dick.

Which, actually, is the point: All your ranting about how "DM may I" is bad is stupid if your DM is not a dick. If you cannot handwave the pointless middlework of purchasing basic stuff at high level, then your DM is a dick, and you shouldn't play with him.

[Kaelik]

And as we were talking about earlier, at high level, the ability to purchase whatever damn travel service you want is the same as buying a sword and using it at low level. And at high level that means you can just do that stuff, unless your DM is a dick.

Which doesn't involve:

1) Being able to do it yourself.
2) Being able to skip out on the middlework part.

And therefore is completely fucking irrelevant to what Frank is talking about being the difference between high level and low level.

Which, actually, is the point: All your ranting about how "DM may I" is bad is stupid if your DM is not a dick. If you cannot handwave the pointless middlework of purchasing basic stuff at high level, then your DM is a dick, and you shouldn't play with him.

If only anyone were talking about DM may I as inherently bad your entire post would not be a complete fucking waste of time.

[fectin]

We are not playing with bad DMs, so if you can't find a reason to disagree with Frank's characterization of high level vs low level as played under a good DM, just say "Yes Frank, you are completely right about the difference between the two." and then go eat all the dicks.

That is literally the argument from theRPGsite. The one that got you all frothy.

If a band of high-level adventurers make you their pet, you will have high level adventures, regardless of your own puissance. That's basically what you're describing in all your scenarios.

I suggest you actually read the post. None of those scenarios included help from a higher-level adventurer, unless you consider Mystra (FR goddess of magic) to be one. More in the realm of mcguffins/destiny, really. Also - what is your point?

I would call Mystra high level. I would also call the Ghost King high level, as well as the dudes who are able to decide that you are now running a kingdom.

[ETortoise]

In a sandbox style adventure there has generally been an agreement between the DM and the players that the game will play that way. Therefore travel abilities are interesting because they do expand the map in a real way (even if its just from the regional map to the continent map). Expanding the map can happen with both mundane and magical advancement but its the magical stuff that really makes you feel like a badass. Buying a longship and hiring mercenaries to crew it is cool and makes you a bad dude like Ivar the Boneless; but cutting holes join the air like Rand Al'Thor is higher level by any real distinction.

While it may be true that the DM can provide any contrivance needed to advance the plot it feels more impressive to do it yourself. Especially since the DM could just give you enough clues for the players to think that going to the Abyss or whatever is their clever idea. The idea that something feels cooler is worth considering seriously since we are ultimately talking about a game we play for fun.

That said, the ability to change the setting is also very important for things to feel high level. Its necessity is not limited to fantasy however. Its an important thing for advanced characters to be able to do in virtually any game.

I would be much more pissed if a DM made my character a king at first level than if I got to adventure in hell at first level; for whatever that's worth.

[Kaelik]

We are not playing with bad DMs, so if you can't find a reason to disagree with Frank's characterization of high level vs low level as played under a good DM, just say "Yes Frank, you are completely right about the difference between the two." and then go eat all the dicks.

That is literally the argument from theRPGsite. The one that got you all frothy.

It is also literally irrelevant to the actual discussion that is really occurring about what characterizes high vs low level.

It would be totally relevant if we were talking about "should there be rules," it might be relevant if we were talking about "what should the rules be" but it is super completely infinitely irrelevant in characterizing what kind of things are or are not high level.

I would call it stupid as shit if it were actually relevant to the conversation, instead I am asking for people to talk about what is actually relevant instead.