So what happened to 5e anyway?

[Red_Rob]

But anyways, yeah, the problem is not with any specific monsters, it's that the existence of shapechanging magic requires you to keep it in mind with every single statblock you write. That's not just shapehifting, though: It's also summoning.

And Charm spells. And diplomancy. And monster PC's. Shit, just straight up roleplaying when you meet a monster rather than treating everything as a combat encounter can get monsters on your side for longer than a summon spell.

The lesson of 3e should have been that players will get access to monster abilities, and you should plan for that, not that you should gimp a large number of fun and popular player options to try to prevent it.

[Voss]

On damage spells: what do HP totals looks like? I.e., what are we comparing 2d6/level to?

The usual. (d6/d8/d10 + con) per level, maxed at first, with the option of 'the average' (4, 5 or 6) instead of rolling. Monsters vary a bit more, but they're all averages of x*dice +x*con bonus. dice is very loosely tied to level, but can be a bit higher- trolls are level 6 but have 7d10+28 hp (con bonus +4).

But then there are odd exceptions like the ropers, which are level 7, but have 18d10, so... whatever.

Keep in mind that the average damage for spells is [spell level]*dice, not [character level]*dice

So meteor swarm vs 12th level cleric is 12d6 (42) vs ~87 hp (assuming 14 con). And save for half, of course.

Keep in mind that a balor (which is one of the few high level monsters listed at level 18) has 207 hp and generally decent stats (except for wisdom), so it will save on a something like an 11+ to 13+ against most spells. Cantrips (since they scale and don't have saves) and swords (since fighter swords also scale) are more reliable at killing at high levels



Now if you want real confusion, take the lich. It is 7th level, has a set list of spells (mostly a grab bag of damage spells from levels 1-5) and save dc of 15 (which seems to be 10+int bonus). However there is a chance that a lich can 'cast spells as a 20th level wizard' with no indication of what this actually means. Does it get more spells known/prepared? Is the save DC adjusted the way a wizard's would be? Class level affects some spells (especially cantrips) but not most. So... what the fuck? Apparently whatever it does, it has absolute zero affect on the level of the creature and the XP value.

[MisterDee]

At this point, I'm just looking at this in sick fascination.

IMO, we've had enough information to deduce that Hasbro basically cut off funding for the D&D brand for a long time.

But the latest packet also make me think that there is basically no design process in place. It's purely someone throwing house rules at a bunch of friends and seeing what works, then throwing everything out there to be dissected by the internet.

I mean, the monsters clearly haven't been designed with the goal of creating a monster manual - they're just whatever Mearls plopped in the last few adventures he ran for the design group.

I'd rant about Mearls some more, but at this point I'm honestly impressed. He managed to find people willing to pay him to DM adventures for his buddies, and then he doubled up and also managed to offload the actual design and analysis work on the public.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I know I asked this in another thread, but it bears repeating.

Does Mike Mearls actually plan to keep working in industry after this? I mean, I know that in TTRPGs people keep falling upwards, but I'm wondering how the hell you could spin something like 'caused the D&D 5th Edition to collapse right after it was released due to laziness' into a career positive.

Also, Frank's right: why the hell doesn't anyone at Hasbro doesn't call Mike Mearls out? It's not like he's dicking around while resting on previous laurels. Fourth Edition D&D was the most miserable failure in D&D's history and there are literally no more books for it. The gap between 3rd and 4th Edition releases, let alone announcements, was a few months.

Mike Mears must give the best rimjobs in history. It's the only explanation.

[Juton]

First of all no one at Hasbro probably understands that D&D is separate from MTG. WotC is almost certainly turning a profit in a recession, as much as middle managers love to meddle I doubt they look too deeply into how WotC operates.

The real question is why does no one at WotC seem to care about how Mearls is failing. Do we even know for sure that anyone at WotC actually cares about D&D?

[Voss]

First of all no one at Hasbro probably understands that D&D is separate from MTG. WotC is almost certainly turning a profit in a recession, as much as middle managers love to meddle I doubt they look too deeply into how WotC operates.

The real question is why does no one at WotC seem to care about how Mearls is failing. Do we even know for sure that anyone at WotC actually cares about D&D?

Well, we know that Hasbro's annual reports don't even mention D&D. They'll go on and length about Magic and the like, and apparently as long as that is still raking in cash, they can apparently shit around with whatever side projects they want.

The real mystery is why the yearly shipment of ex-employees aren't talking. I presume there is some level of NDA in effect, but you'd expect something from someone at this point.

As for Lago's question about the transition, it is a fucking mystery. They certainly milked 3e up until the end of 2007, Elder Evils in December (5 months before the first 4e module was released, with the core books coming in june). With 4e, they gave up last summer (actually earlier, but there were a couple sourcebooks that were technically 4e, even though no one gave a shit), and are now just floating reprints (real and pdf), even of fucking 2nd edition now.

They are supposedly going to be pushing 5e testing into the 'D&D Encounters' bullshit that they offer through game stores, but I don't know when that is going to start. I don't know how it can when they keep scrapping basic classes with each playtest packet, none of which look *anything* like their original design goals. Even though it was a fucking stupid idea, I have no idea where the 'rules modules' thing went- all they've got is very basic attempts at the really simple mechanical situations, and just shoved a quarter of the game into feats for no apparent reason.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It's a little less than 5 months before GenCon 2013 hits. What the fuck is Mearls trying to pull here? Does he really not give that much of a shit? Does he really think that Hasbro/the fanbase will forgive him indefinitely and just let him release 5E D&D whenever -- let alone however -- the fuck he feels like?

This man is on track to become the most hated name in TTRPGs that didn't do something criminal. Yes, even moreso than Lorraine Williams.

[Username17]

My only explanation for Mearls' bizarre behavior is twofold:

• From Mearls' standpoint: Iron Heroes was a great success.
• Heads rolled all over the floor while 4th edition was actually on shelves.

The second part is obvious. While 4th edition was in stores and failing to attract customers, the head of D&D got fired every year. Actually having a product on the shelf is a terrible idea because that gives you objective chances for failure. But the first part also requires attention: Mike Mearls abandoned Iron Heroes as a loose leaf pile of incoherent ramblings that didn't accomplish any design goals and had contradictory and non-functional subsystems that were inelegant, unbalanced, fiddly, and game destroying - and he got a popularity boost at the time. There was nothing salvageable in that piece of shit, and he was able to con a fairly substantial number of people into claiming it was a step in the right direction on the grounds that it had popular sounding design goals and the notpology that he had stopped working on it when he left the company "before it was finished" was somehow supposed to make it OK.

So Mike Mearls seems to clearly be pulling, well, a Mike Mearls. The plan here is to just keep "working on it" indefinitely. Mearls is going to keep doing polls to try to find out what the most popular design goals appear to be, and leave those design goals attached to the document that is left for release. Because here's the thing: eventually the company is going to get tired of his bullshit and release the fucking thing with or without him saying it is finished. His plan thus, is to have them release it without his seal of approval.

Then he figures that he's going to get booted out of the company like all the previous heads did while he was working there. But he's going to have a generic excuse that 5e was released "before it was done", and thus everything you liked was meeting popular design goals and everything you didn't like was just a place holder that big meany head corporate executives rammed through because they released it in an "unfinished" state.

The thing is: I don't actually know if he can fool many people this way a second time. I'm almost certain that he can get enough suckers to buy into it that he'll still have supporters on RPG.net, which might be enough that he can still release niche products. Mike Mearls has put a lot of craft into his own celebrity status. Much more so than like Rob Heinsoo - so if he shits out a 3rd party retread of his own design failures like 13th Age, it will probably pay the grocery bills.

Sad to say: I don't see how Mike Mearls can fail to succeed at his personal goals on this one. Iron Heroes came out 8 years ago. How long did it take before even a plurality of people acknowledged that there wasn't any hidden genius in that fucking abortion?

-Username17

[Ghremdal]

What I heard (read) on another forum is that DnD Insider (or however its called) has about 56k paying subscribers. As of a month or so ago.

If that is true, and I don't know why someone would pay for that shit, it could be a reason why Mearls is still in power. No wonder the up and up's are happy with him, they are not producing any new content and they still rake in a lot of money.

[Stubbazubba]

Yeah, one thing this conversation is overlooking is that 4e is still making more money each month than I think 3.5 ever did. The rapid cancellation of the print lines is interesting, but the interpretation that 4e was tanking just doesn't jive with the subscription numbers for DDI. It's possible that additional books were considered a sub-par revenue stream, and it was time to make a new core release, though.

[Username17]

Yeah, one thing this conversation is overlooking is that 4e is still making more money each month than I think 3.5 ever did. The rapid cancellation of the print lines is interesting, but the interpretation that 4e was tanking just doesn't jive with the subscription numbers for DDI. It's possible that additional books were considered a sub-par revenue stream, and it was time to make a new core release, though.

The three 3e core books sold millions of copies each. At twenty dollars a piece. We're talking about tens of millions of dollars in the first month alone. The 3e PHB, DMG, and MM together made more net than the DDI has taken in gross for its entire run going back to 2008.

Five hundred thousand dollars a month is decent money, but's it's not 3rd edition money. Frankly, I'll bet the reason the higher ups are backing off is that the re-releases of 2nd and 3rd edition material as PDFs are probably making more cash than new 4th edition books were doing before Mearls stepped in.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Five hundred thousand dollars a month is decent money, but's it's not 3rd edition money.

I'm pretty sure that DDI is making more money now than 3.5E was making at the [EDITED] end of its lifecycle.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

It becomes more and more apparent that Frank was right and the 5E is Vaporware

[Previn]

What I heard (read) on another forum is that DnD Insider (or however its called) has about 56k paying subscribers. As of a month or so ago.

If that is true, and I don't know why someone would pay for that shit, it could be a reason why Mearls is still in power. No wonder the up and up's are happy with him, they are not producing any new content and they still rake in a lot of money.

You can actually check the minimum number of people subscribed to DDI who also have created a community account. I believe that it's around 81,000 right now.

I believe but can't confirm that most of the 76,000 or so that Mearls cites as contributing to polls and surveys about 5e are drawn from those subscribers.

[Kaelik]

You can actually check the minimum number of people subscribed to DDI who also have created a community account. I believe that it's around 81,000 right now.

I have a WoW account. I haven't payed a subscription fee for it in many years, but it still exists. Do you have any reason to believe that all 81,000 community accounts created are still paying subscription?

[infected slut princess]

A long time ago, before 5e was a thing, Frank Trollman (I believe) proposed the idea for "5e" they should make it Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Third Edition.

They should've just done that.

5e is so damn lame so far, and I can tell it's not going to get better.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I have a WoW account. I haven't payed a subscription fee for it in many years, but it still exists. Do you have any reason to believe that all 81,000 community accounts created are still paying subscription?

I'm not sure whether they count 'DDI subscriber' as people who are currently paying subscription or who have ever paid subscriptions. I completely gave up on DDI (and the sourcebooks entirely) back in June/July 2010 except for Monster Vault.

[Kaelik]

I have a WoW account. I haven't payed a subscription fee for it in many years, but it still exists. Do you have any reason to believe that all 81,000 community accounts created are still paying subscription?

I'm not sure whether they count 'DDI subscriber' as people who are currently paying subscription or who have ever paid subscriptions. I completely gave up on DDI (and the sourcebooks entirely) back in June/July 2010 except for Monster Vault.

If it were just "subscriber" that would be one thing, but Previn is explicitly counting "community accounts." I have a community account that I made as a subscriber, back when I subscribed, but even though I no longer do, I still have a community account.

[Previn]

You can actually check the minimum number of people subscribed to DDI who also have created a community account. I believe that it's around 81,000 right now.

I have a WoW account. I haven't payed a subscription fee for it in many years, but it still exists. Do you have any reason to believe that all 81,000 community accounts created are still paying subscription?

If you stop your subscription you no long show up as part of that group (you are actively removed by an automated process). This was actually specifically tested because of just such a question.

I mention community accounts because if you have DDI, but don't have a community account, you're not in the group and don't show up as part of the ~81,000 current DDI accounts that do. Thus why saying there are 81,000 minimum accounts for DDI.

[CapnTthePirateG]

So then I take it D&D is just leeching off magic profits?

Yeah I have no idea where the modules went either. EnWorld keeps claiming they exist. They are probably wrong.

[OgreBattle]

A long time ago, before 5e was a thing, Frank Trollman (I believe) proposed the idea for "5e" they should make it Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Third Edition.

They should've just done that.

5e is so damn lame so far, and I can tell it's not going to get better.

Adventurer Conqueror King feels like that to me, and I enjoy how straightforward it is.

[hogarth]

It becomes more and more apparent that Frank was right and the 5E is Vaporware

I'm sure if people had seen the spitballing and playtesting that went into the creation of 4E, they would have been similarly unimpressed. That doesn't make 4E "vaporware", though.

[Korwin]

It becomes more and more apparent that Frank was right and the 5E is Vaporware

I'm sure if people had seen the spitballing and playtesting that went into the creation of 4E, they would have been similarly unimpressed. That doesn't make 4E "vaporware", though.

That sound overly optimistic

[Previn]

So then I take it D&D is just leeching off magic profits?

D&D does make a profit, and the DDI is a pretty chunk of basically free money each month. Remember that in corporate and bean counter worlds you can lose for not being successful enough.

It becomes more and more apparent that Frank was right and the 5E is Vaporware

I'm sure if people had seen the spitballing and playtesting that went into the creation of 4E, they would have been similarly unimpressed. That doesn't make 4E "vaporware", though.

That sound overly optimistic

It sounds pretty spot on to me. I honestly think 5e will do better than 4e, but not as good as 3.x. With a bit of extra development work, I'd play 5e right now.

[Wrathzog]

I think the big thing is whether or not Wizards decides to make more Tools for 5E like they did with 4E. The (off-line) character builder was the best thing 4E did for itself and I don't 5E "succeeding" without that type of support (and that seems extremely unlikely).

At the very least, they need to get into cellphone/smartpad apps but I haven't heard of anything like that so far.