Pathfinder

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:59 am

Research the name of an advanced efreeti, likely a noble of some note, with at least 20HD. That's double the original, and our cap starts at 26HD. Make a simulacrum of that specific one. Debate as to whether it can continue to grant wishes is ended.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:18 am

virgil wrote:Research the name of an advanced efreeti, likely a noble of some note, with at least 20HD. That's double the original, and our cap starts at 26HD. Make a simulacrum of that specific one. Debate as to whether it can continue to grant wishes is ended.

So in other words, ask your DM if he can make up a monster that doesn't exist in the books, so that you can have infinite wishes.

Why not just ask him to make up a 20 HD Genie that has infinite wishes and personally wants nothing more than to suck your PCs cock, and gives you infinite wishes and blowjobs too?

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:28 am

If I remember correctly, the monster advancement rules are normally: Give it more HD, and the feats, skills, ability score points, size, and CR to go with it. Nothing about adding or upgrading special abilities, except when those special abilities are tied to HD.

Why should taking away HD be something other than the opposite of this?

And how on earth can you claim to have a clear idea about what special abilities are appropriate for a given level if a CR 8 creature can cast a 9th level spell more times per day than a level 17 Wizard?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:38 am

deanruel87 wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Simulacrum: "but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"
Holy fuck what the fuck are you talking about. That is such a strained and boggling reading of those words. So you are claiming that because it used the word "appropriate" instead of "resultant" it means that you are supposed to have the DM listen to his heartsong and craft a creature which he feels has a writeup appropriate to the HD of the thing your making. And not to in fact just recalculate level number and feats. If you make a 10th level Paladin there are special abilities the Simulacrum will not get, because they are level derived special abilities. Your reading is insane.

And yet that's the position of James Jacobs, for instance.

James Jacobs wrote:As folks have already mentioned, the phrase "special abilities for a creature of that level or HD" actually refers to ALL of its special abilities—this includes special attacks, special defenses, special qualities, senses, the whole deal. Simulacrum essentially creates a half-power duplicate of the source creature.

deanruel87 wrote:And even under that bizarre premise what makes a 10HD Efreet with 3 wishes reasonable and correct but an 11 HD Solar with 1 wish ban-worthy.

I think most people would agree that hit dice is a particularly poor measure of a monster's power level and/or which abilities are "appropriate".

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:03 am

Foxwarrior wrote:If I remember correctly, the monster advancement rules are normally: Give it more HD, and the feats, skills, ability score points, size, and CR to go with it. Nothing about adding or upgrading special abilities, except when those special abilities are tied to HD.

Actually, you forgot the rule "make up completely new special abilities just because." But I would think it is different because the spell specifically tells you to reduce special abilities that are not appropriate.

Foxwarrior wrote:And how on earth can you claim to have a clear idea about what special abilities are appropriate for a given level if a CR 8 creature can cast a 9th level spell more times per day than a level 17 Wizard?

I never claimed there is a clear idea. That was dean's claim. He thinks it is clear and does not in any way rely on the DM to use Simulacrum wishes. I am claiming it does in fact require the DM to okay it, because it isn't fucking clear what Simulacrum gives.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:41 am

Here's the whole thread with the Creative Director's comments, by the by.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ljov?Simulacrum

Most of the relevant stuff is 'halve it', and if if its complicated, ask the GM, and he gets the last word.

This reminds me of why I despise Paizo, however, immediately after answering sixteen fucking questions on how a single goddamn spell functions:

JJ wrote:Could it benefit from rewriting? Certainly. Does it need it to function in game? Nah.

He more than quintupled the spell's text trying to explain it, and still dumped almost all of it in the GM's lap.

So, dean, absolutely inarguable? Not a fucking chance.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:22 am

On the subject of spells: how do the different wizard schools of spells rate against each other in terms of spells only? That is, ignoring the school abilities, just looking at spells, how good is each school? Is transmutation el lame-o? Is conjuration still badass on stilts?

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:54 am

Archmage Joda wrote:On the subject of spells: how do the different wizard schools of spells rate against each other in terms of spells only? That is, ignoring the school abilities, just looking at spells, how good is each school? Is transmutation el lame-o? Is conjuration still badass on stilts?

Conjuration is still the king of battlefield control. Enchantment, Illusion and Divination are pretty much unchanged. Evocation got slightly better spells, but CL shenanigans are almost entirely gone, so it's a net loss IMO. Transmutation is still the "Misc" of spells, and still a very decent #2, even with the nerf on Polymorph. Necromancy is good, I'd rate it as the #3 choice for specialization based on spells; Every spell level has multiple spells that are useful every day.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:15 pm

Ok I got sick today so I statted up my Summoner. I have some questions about the SGT. Here's the fights I don't understand.

A Nightmare Beast deep in a hedge maze. QUESTION: Does this Hedge Maze have a roof of some kind?

A Yakfolk cleric with a party of Dao. STATEMENT: I don't know what or where Yakfolk or Dao are so I won't be doing this one.

A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls. STATEMENT: I'll do my best with this one but since I don't have a statted opponent I'll just have her start throwing out cleric spells, I assume she is also 15th level?

A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers. QUESTION: Am I in lava when I'm here? If I'm flying what are the effects of being in a forest made of lava?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:31 pm

The hedge maze will have a foliage roof. The drow is frequently presumed to be 14th or 15th level and had cast Create Undead weeks ago and used all of her rebuke undead to control them. The lava forest is usually considered an overland travel problem where you need to get to the other side, but I've frequently considered it to be a case of you needing to find something in the middle of it all; the effects of flying above it, with periodic low-flying to get a view, would represent an extreme temperature for the air (140+ degrees) IMO.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:01 pm

The Nightmare Beast maze has a roof. Also it has Rush Limbaugh:

More seriously, it's not that difficult of an encounter. It's just far away and in a secure location. And every time you sleep without having found it you need to make a Will Save DC 17 or get Nightmared (presumably it gets the first strike, since the range on that is 10 miles). Once you actually get to it, it's basically a 10th level Wizard with 187 hit points. Nasty, but not unbeatable by any means.

The Drow priestess is a Drow, so she's only 14th level. But she has filled up her Rebuking and Animate Dead slots with Ghouls of various strengths.

Dao are the Earth Element Genies. They are in the Monsignor du Planas. In addition to a bunch of earth folding powers, they can also blast off a bunch of limited wishes. It's a nasty encounter.

Being able to fly persistently and have Fire Resist + Fast Healing of more than 6 is enough to avoid the lava and the heat effects. If you had Scry and Teleport, you could pop in and out fast enough to not need to worry about heat damage. If you had fire resist + fast healing of 18+ you'd be able to run around at ground level, and with enough jumping you could clear all the lava, and if you could gauntlet a bunch of fire element dire badgers (or sneak past them), you could clear the challenge that way. If you're outright fire immune, you can just walk across the damn lava, and assuming the dire badgers can't take you down, you can declare victory.

-Username17

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:26 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:

Those two pictures are awesome. Is there any story behind the Rush photoshop, or was it just a photoshop Friday?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:32 pm

Rush Limbaugh's newsletter apparently did a trace out of the 3rd edition Monster Manual 2 in order to make a deceptive graphic about how allowing a temporary tax cut to expire on its congressionally mandated expiration date constituted a "tax increase" and the fact that there are more people now than there were in the past makes such tax increases "bigger" (for certain definitions of "bigger").

I don't actually know if one of Rush Limbaugh's graphics monkeys is a D&D player, and I don't know whether they copied it ironically or not. Hell, they could have found the original picture by just google image searching the word "nightmare" and thought it looked cool.

-Username17

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:11 am

Alright then lets start this thing off. Here's my dudes.

Summoner
Str 26
Dex 10
Con 17
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 20

HP 123
AC 28
Fort 17
Ref 14
Will 18
Attacks: Lance +25/+20/+15 (2d6+19)

Feats: Lance Proficiency, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Improved Share Spells, Trick Riding, Skill Focus Ride, One more I don't care about?
Spells: 5th Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Summon 7, True Seeing, Spell Turning, 4th Overland Flight, Baleful Polymorph, Evolution Surge Greater, 3rd Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Ice, Heroism, Dimension Door, Charm Monster, Locate Creature, 2nd Haste, Summon Eidolon, Resist Energy, Slow, Detect Thoughts, Barkskin, See Invisibility, 1st Enlarge, Shield, Mage Armor, Protection from Evil
Gear: Lesser Rod of Quicken, +5 Lance, +5 Chain Shirt, +4 Cloak of Resistance, Belt of Physical Might +4, Headband of Fuckin +6, Orange Ioun Stone

My Eidolon
Str 38
Dex 16
Con 22
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11

HP 138
AC 37
Fort 14
Ref 11
Will 4 (+4 against enchantment)
Attacks: Bite +30(1d8+18) 4 Claws (4d6+18)
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, Eldritch Claws, Improved Natural AttackX2
Evolutions: 24 Points, Huge (10), 4 arms (2), Claws (2), Pounce (1), Magic Attacks (1), Mount (1), Rend (2), Rake (2), Grab (2) (One point is gone to give me pounce)

The following spells are either permanent or assumed to be active anytime I am out of bed: Enlarge, Heroism, Barkskin, Overland Flight, Mage Armor, Magic Fang, See Invisibility. If one of these fights is supposed to ambush or surprise me let me know.

So basically his tricks are that he get spells in low slots so I can use Lesser Quicken rods pretty effectively, so if I want to quicken D-door I can do it on the cheap. Also both me and my Eidolon have Pounce so when we slam into stuff we power attack and make things explode. On a hasted charge I have 4 attacks that deal 6d6+84 then 2d6+28 and my monster has at least 6 that deal 4d6+18. He has at least 4 claw attacks, he has Rend, Improved Grab, and if he gets a grab off he gets 2 free extra attacks. Since he can get grabs and then release them as free actions he could possibly net 8 extra attacks from that. His claws count as Magic, chaotic, good, and silver so he can deal with DR ok. I can also make like....a hundred minions of various kinds so that can come in handy. I can also do this pretty awesome trick that I'm calling the Summoner Shuffle which I'm pretty excited about and I'll show off later.
I'll gather up all my monster manuals and stuff and make my reports in a minute. If anyone wants to ask any questions go ahead, I think he's legit, legal, and uncomplicated. Lets do this thing.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:03 am

If you're playing a Synthesist, is there a reason to not take "limbs" as many times as you can and become some sort of Hecatonchires?

At just second level you'll be full-attacking at +3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3 with a morningstar (1d8+3), four sickles (1d6+1), and battle aspergillum (1d6+1; 'cause why not), which is pretty terrifying both in appearance and effect. At range you're still pretty devastating with a heavy crossbow (1d10) and four light crossbows (1d8) at +1/+1/+1/+1/+1.

At higher levels it probably makes sense to eat the -2 penalty to attacks and wield all of your weapons two handed for 1.5*Str.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:28 am

Alright let's start this! I'm gonna do this a few at a time. Lets go.

A Marut
Alright I've gotten a little lucky here, his DR's chaotic and his Ac's low enough that my Eidolon's only worry is 1's and I'm tagging it on the charge on a 5+. We are also faster, able to teleport, and our charge range is out of his close spell range. The best thing he has is probably Greater Command which could, at best, make me take an extra round or two to kill him. I think I would win this on the opening round.

Hullathoin and Friends
The Hullathoin isn't a worry at all to me. If we were in a closet things could get ugly but it's too weird and stupid for that so it gets charged and it explodes. The Bloodfiend locusts are weird but not really a threat and are so much slower than me that I could either just kill their boss and fly away or summon an army of Vrocks to do mop-up. The only way this could be a problem would be if it's Zombie army was dragons or something that was so fast I couldn't kite them. I think this is a definite win.

Nightmare Beast in a Maze
I don't have much in the way of Scrying. So assuming someone built a hedge maze near my house and told the beast to fuck with me for some reason it might take me a couple days to find it. I can make dozens of Erinyes to be flying teleporting search minions but I don't have too much in the way of scrying. However since I save against Nightmare on anything but a 1 and it doesn't directly hurt me I assume I'll figure out the deal eventually and then it's in trouble. I can summon enough Demons and Fire Elementals to search/burn down the maze and then we'll brawl at whatever spot he's killing my minions at. His best bet would be to throw his disintegrate and hope I roll a 1 because his AC sucks and my monster and I will probably 1 round him. Another definite win.

Windghost in the Sky with Diamonds
So he goes first but there's really not much he can do to me. He can't hide and when we see him, which is fast cause he's enorm, he can open up with a dispel which has a 50/50 shot of turning off any of my spells. The only one I care about is Overland Flight though because if that goes down we fall. So if we're more than 300 feet above the ground I'm totally fine, and if we're less than that I might very well take a bump on the noggin. If that happened I would still be alive and I could cast Overland flight again on my Eidolon, quicken a dimension door 50 feet above the Windghost, and have my Eidolon tear it a new asshole. It's AC means he can power attack which means all 6 attacks (rend included) likely hit for 1d8+20d6+156. Definite win.

Yakfolk with Party of Dao
So I went and got my roommates Manuel de l'Niveaux. So I don't know what the Yakfolk Cleric's deal is, but I'll bet I can one roud him....but these Dao can murder the shit out of me. Dao are fucking ridiculous. So since I can't even kind of deal with 4 Dominates coming at me and my monster every round the only way I could win would be to come right at the Yak and try to kill him before he got a round, since if he's dead the Dao can't "Wish" at me. I would need to know the specifics of this mission because it's possible I could D-door away when I saw them and then send teleporting minions at them all day until the Yak was dead. But if this dude is capturing a princess or something time sensitive....that happens. I'll call this one a probable loss.

Drow Priestess with Ghouls
I ain't afraid of no Ghouls, but Cleric is a better class than mine. So this is basically a build-off. I'll assume in a real game my character would be built better than an enemy NPC, so odds are pretty decent that my whole "A'splode ya face" plan would be fairly likely to work on her. It's highly possible that she could banish my Eidolon and then I'd have to resummon it or D-door out and come back in a round or whatever. But since I'm flying the undead are just scenery and I do have the potential to murder her in one round from anywhere within 1200 feet (D-door 1040, Eidolon charge 140) so I think I have the advantage her unless she's a boss the DM put ages into. Probable victory.

Warparty of Cloud Giants
I can't even remotely handle 5 giants melee damage output so the plan is gonna be to fly and summon 15 Erinyes to help even the odds. Their rocks can only really hit me, and even then on an 18 (my Eidolon can buff my AC by 2) so I can probably slam down into one of them, kill one, and D-door out. If I'm out of quickened D-doors I can ready an action to teleport out when hit a giant and then keep doing it till their all dead. If this encounter is in a house or cave or something then obviously I'm dead as shit, but I don't think any 15th level character could handle a giant gangbang. I think this is a win.

Mature Adult White Dragon
In a field I kill the shit out of this thing but lets say we're in a cave. Now it knows it's home better than I do so it's gonna get the drop, and I'm fine with that. And in a full round attack it can deal about 90 damage if literally every attack hits and every die rolls max. I can live through that but then he's in my face. I can't cast spells without risking AOO's. WHAAAT TO DOOOO??? Well a monsters on me and I'm in a lotta trouble, so that's the time to do the Summoner Shuffle!!! Boop, ba-doop doop ba-doop. So I can "fast dismount" as a free action on anything but a one, then I put myself behind my Eidolon, then I 5ft step and now that I'm well out of his reach I can touch my monster (I have reach cause I'm large) cast a quickened D-door, teleport us at least 10 feet away from the Dragon, fast RE-mount as a free action, and have both of us charge back in for a full blown awesome charge. Summoner Shuffle! Free fast dismount, Quickened D-door, free fast re-mount, we both charge! Victory.

So out of 8 fights that's 6 victories, 1 probable victory, and 1 probable loss.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:43 am

The Drow Priestess is probably in the Underdirt. The caverns could very well be small enough that you can't fly and are actually in melee range of the Ghouls. Hell, it might be annoying enough that your minion is actually too big to fit.

Now at some point there's "Monster uses clever proper tactics as appropriate for its Intelligence and the CR should be treated as lower if they don't do this", and at another point there's "The MC is going out of their way to deny your advantages, just to fuck with you."

I'll let you decide what fits into the former category and not the latter, but you probably shouldn't just assume you can fly in the Underdirt.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:50 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:If you're playing a Synthesist, is there a reason to not take "limbs" as many times as you can and become some sort of Hecatonchires?

If it works like that then fucking....totally. Tons of limbs, pounce, and enough strength to know you can hit. Done. Evolution surge can heal you on the cheap by giving you the fast healing evolution and it's also good to solve weird tactical problems that come up.

The Drow Priestess is probably in the Underdirt. The caverns could very well be small enough that you can't fly and are actually in melee range of the Ghouls

That's reasonable, I didn't think of that. If I can't bring my eidolon in then I almost certainly lose any encounter and I'm fine with that. If I can bring my eidolon but not fly then I would probably D-door back and then start flooding the tunnels with monsters. Dire Tigers might be a good plan, maybe Bone devils or something invisible, Air Elementals are basically living AOE's so that might be good. Yeah I would have to play that one out. I have a lot of tools at my disposal but if I can't get the Priestess into melee then obviously I lose. I'm willing to put this one to a 50/50 since basically I can quicken teleport and then probably one round her but she could have very complex defensive terrain on her side.

Roog · Post by **Roog** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:57 am

deanruel87 wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:If you're playing a Synthesist, is there a reason to not take "limbs" as many times as you can and become some sort of Hecatonchires?
If it works like that then fucking....totally. Tons of limbs, pounce, and enough strength to know you can hit. Done.

Eidolons have have a maximum number of natural attacks by level (3 +1 at 4th and every 5 levels after that), but that limit specifically does not include weapon attacks, extra limbs specifically does not grant additional natural attacks, and extra limbs specifically can be used to wield weapons. So the extra attacks are clearly available (and the author's intent seems clear).
However, only quadruped eidolon have pounce. Nothing specifically prohibits the Synthesist from having a quadruped eidolon, but they don't any arms without paying evolution points.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:07 am

But I guess what I don't know is how does having, say, 6 arms effect your attacks. Having two arms doesn't give 2 attacks so is there some thing out there that talks about putting a sword in each of your six arms and then making a ton of attacks? I don't doubt it exists I've just never had a six armed character.
Assuming you really can set your attack score to "TEXA$!" you don't really need pounce. It's great obviously but you could just quicken dimension door on top of people and deliver your payload anytime there wasn't anyone next to you. It's a really good trick.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:24 am

deanruel87 wrote:Having two arms doesn't give 2 attacks.

It does if you put weapons in them. You just eat TWF penalties. Is there any reason why the same wouldn't apply if you had 15 off hands?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:10 am

Red_Rob wrote:
deanruel87 wrote:Having two arms doesn't give 2 attacks.
It does if you put weapons in them. You just eat TWF penalties. Is there any reason why the same wouldn't apply if you had 15 off hands?

The Pathfinder devs rule that you don't get extra attacks for holding weapons all the time. See: Witch Hair. So while I certainly can't see any reason that you couldn't just take limbs over and over again (having simple weapon proficiency, pounce, and 8 sets of extra arms at level 15 - though not a lot else and obviously no wings), I also wouldn't be at all surprised if the Pathfinder devs had some sort of secret rule somewhere that said you couldn't do that.

That being said, I have a couple of things to note. The first is that flying and pouncing is not the super move deanrule seems to think it is. Even in Pathfinder you can't actually charge through enemies, so anyone with mook zombies or ghouls or whatever who happens to live underground (like say, a Hulathoin or a Drow Priestess) is automatically not going to be superchargeable on the first round whether they lose initiative or not.

Further, I'm not really seeing how you intend to make things ultrasplode with your charge in any case. At 15th level, the Eidolon has a Strength of 23. That's... OK... and obviously you can and will stack bonuses on it and outfit it with equipment and shit. But until you do that we aren't even up to the weapon power of a Barbarian. Let alone the pouncing ferocity of something like a Pounce Rogue.

-Username17

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:14 am

FrankTrollman wrote: The first is that flying and pouncing is not the super move deanrule seems to think it is. Even in Pathfinder you can't actually charge through enemies, so anyone with mook zombies or ghouls or whatever who happens to live underground (like say, a Hulathoin or a Drow Priestess) is automatically not going to be superchargeable on the first round whether they lose initiative or not.

If you combine it with swift teleporting it kinda is. Unless they are covered on all sides, including above, 15ft deep I'll find a spot to put him. Also -I- need to charge but the Eidolon does not and I'm really just dressing here. So if we're talking really tight quarters all I really need to do is port him there and his attacks will do the rest. In the Priestess fight for instance if she has an AC of 30 he will probably land 13-14 attacks. Each one of those doing 30 damage or so. Then since I'm largely useless without the charge I would use my standard action to get us the fuck out with another teleport and repeat as necessary.

Further, I'm not really seeing how you intend to make things ultrasplode with your charge in any case. At 15th level, the Eidolon has a Strength of 23. That's... OK... and obviously you can and will stack bonuses on it and outfit it with equipment and shit. But until you do that we aren't even up to the weapon power of a Barbarian. Let alone the pouncing ferocity of something like a Pounce Rogue.

The mandatory evolution for any fighting Eidolon is huge size. That adds +16 Strength before any buffs or equipment show up which is a pretty big deal. So then your Strength is something like 40 and you take lots of Claw attacks. Then Rend (for a free extra claw attack if you hit twice which you will), then Improved Grab (which you can actually succeed at because your Huge and your Strength is titanic), then Rake (which gives you 2 extra attacks every time you succeed at a grapple check which you get to do every time you make a claw attack). So optimally your attack regimen looks something like Bite, Claw, Rake, Rake, Claw, Rake, Rake, Claw, Rake, Rake, Claw, Rake, Rake, Rend. With your strength bonus multiplied over that many attacks you deal tremendous damage. Now if something has such a high AC that it can reliably shrug off the +30 attack bonus you should be having then your DPS can drop really tremendously as less attacks generates less attacks cyclically. But usually your a blender. And while it's definitely true that I'm not anywhere near a Pounce Rogue or a Frenzied Berserker I don't have to be. I don't need Summoners to be The Best Around(TM) I just need them to be able to kill most enemies.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:53 am

Not going through everything but:

deanruel87 wrote:The following spells are either permanent or assumed to be active anytime I am out of bed: Enlarge, Heroism, Barkskin, Overland Flight, Mage Armor, Magic Fang.

How are you getting barkskin?

On a hasted charge I have 4 attacks that deal 2d6+84 and he has at least 6 that deal 4d6+18.

Your math is wrong. Your first attack should do more damage than the rest, so you made a mistake somewhere.
You probably forgot that in pathfinder those charging multiplies you get from a lance only apply on one attack?

- Edit: is the eidolon rake the same one as the one in the universal rules?
If so you need to start your turn grappling.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am

Also, neither you nor anyone else can take any further actions on the same turn after DDing, quickened or not (unless PF changed that at some point, but I don't think they did.)