Adventurer Economy

[Emerald]

The Gods, after getting bored with the whole perpetual party-on-olympus-and-everybody's-invited thing, decided to pivot and reorganize around more modern economic techniques. The god of tomorrow is a competitive for-profit entity that leverages its portfolio of natural and philosophical forces to provide necessary services in exchange for magical and monetary compensation. The god will then use this revenue to run churches and empower champions to spread belief, defending the god's portfolio from hostile takeovers and attempting to expand it into new markets and enhance revenue streams.

So playing a party of gods (or god-slayers) in this setting would basically look like this, then?

[John Magnum]

It seems problematic to have a system where you can convert a unit of currency to a consumable item permanently. Because, of course, once you've magically transformed your coin into food and eaten it, the coin doesn't exist anymore and nobody else can spend it.

It's actually pretty good for your currency to not have a ton of instrumental value other than its purpose as a currency.

[hyzmarca]

It seems problematic to have a system where you can convert a unit of currency to a consumable item permanently. Because, of course, once you've magically transformed your coin into food and eaten it, the coin doesn't exist anymore and nobody else can spend it.

It's actually pretty good for your currency to not have a ton of instrumental value other than its purpose as a currency.

That assumes that the economic interaction between gods and mortals only goes one way. Assuming that the money so sacrificed can go back into the economy in the form of shrine construction, employment of clergy, and other projects financed by the god its perfectly feasible.

You could even have a divine central bank that can respond to changing circumstances with fiscal policies designed to promote economic growth.

The God is basically the CEO and sole shareholder of a fortune 500 company. The money sent into his coffer doesn't just vanish. While he can stuff it under his bed, he could just as easily spend it to improve and develop his church.

[shadzar]

in regards to gods needing money, eating a coin isnt problematic if it goes to the gods for some reason cause well.. they can just make more gold, and let their worshipers mint it into more coins?

in other regards, before coin grain, rice etc WAS currency so you sort of did just that eat your own money.....

[squirrelloid]

I was actually reaching a similar conclusion about making the gold economy more relevant (that it converts into another economy through divine involvement), although i don't think its the turnip - gold economy interaction that needs help necessarily.

[shadzar]

so rather than gold being on the gold standard, gold is on the grain standard? or something else that EVERYONE needs. (Darksun...water standard, Hoth... wool standard...etc)

[Grek]

There isn't a standard. Both gold and grain are trade goods.

[shadzar]

that is the point. only people collecting gold cared about it. you might have plenty of money, but if the person you want something from has no place to spend money, then they might not accept gold.

again it falls back onto the castes.

[flare22]

wait if adventurers only brought back some gold and mostly magic items from a a dungeon this whole thing becomes a non issue the gold goes toward paying people for supplies for your next quest repairs and such and any magic items you do not wont can be traded for magic items you do.

and seriously who goes to a peasant village to shop after an adventurer all ive ever done is go straight to the nearest city what are the odds buying a few goods and services with gold and trading some magic items would ruin an entire cities economy.

[shadzar]

trade magic items where? the local Walmart?

and if you cant get the suppleis you need cause the town doesnt have them, who are you buying them from?

what if the nearest town IS a peasant village?

you are making a HUGE assumption about the game.

[Grek]

trade magic items where? the local Walmart?

Seedy inns full of other adventurers looking to trade magic items.

and if you cant get the suppleis you need cause the town doesnt have them, who are you buying them from?

Bigger towns that DO have what you want.

what if the nearest town IS a peasant village?

Peasant villages are not towns, since they are too small to have what you want.

[flare22]

ok first of trade magic items for magic items you might not always get a equal trade in terms of gp value but you might be able to trade a item you don't need for one you do as for were in a big city there are mages or artificers or other people with magic or magic items that did into chose to be murder hobos. if no one makes magic items how do dungeons keep filling with them

if the nearest town is a peasant village you just have to wait a little longer before you can trade.

as for the supplies you need im talking about hiring someone to fix gear that got broken and then buying some oil for your lantern and food for the road not too unreasonable and you commission's the smith to make some arrows and replace a broken sword you no mundane stuff. the locals can up the price of there serviced but its not like you buying up all the oil in town and they can use that gold to pay next years taxes or trade it for steal or some other useful metal.

[flare22]

crap we posted at the same time said the same things pretty much

[shadzar]

the thing is will every blacksmith stop making nails for the locals just to sharpen your sword?

it is assumed far too often that the D&D world exists for the players so they can find anything such as the whole "trade magic items" and Ye Olde Magick Shoppe exists.

ergo the discussion of economy in the first place...

you demonstrate how it can affect peasant village economy...they just dont give a damn about the PCs cause they never try to stop by cause they are always looking for a bigger place with more stuff, or they wipe of the village by taking everything it has as supplies and leaving nothing for the villagers who have this money left but nothing to spend it on.

is the peasants then to become Beverly Hillbillies and jsut move to a bigger town and be able to do anything? leave their land behind and have no place to grow anything, or raise anything?

a PC party could easily do the same as heavy taxation to a peasant village, and be seen as just as bad.

also you ahve to get your goods from that dungeon TO that bigger village, and a PC party isnt as massive and forbodding as a trade caravan. it is only slightly heavier armored than a traveling merchant. the roads are not a safe place.

Hire also implies spending money, as food and such would be what the PCs need. what if the village doesnt have THAT MUCH food to spare to travelers?

if every town has everything needed for PCs then the world looks fake like that 3 million chickens for 10,000 citizens that 3rd said. (still ahvent found that again i am going to google it now to see where that is described. i was sure Frank said it somewhere.)

[flare22]

the thing is will every blacksmith stop making nails for the locals just to sharpen your sword?

not every blacksmith it takes only one to fix a sword and i doubt the city would suffer from having there sword smith fix swords

it is assumed far too often that the D&D world exists for the players so they can find anything such as the whole "trade magic items" and Ye Olde Magick Shoppe exists.

in a world were adventurers have magic items they don't want who made them? someone had to and presumably would be willing to make more in exchange for other magic items of greater value. if the people who made them are inaccessible or if magic items spawn randomly you can find other adventurer who you can swap with im not saying you can find the items you want most only that there is a market for them that does not ruin the world

you demonstrate how it can affect peasant village economy...they just dont give a damn about the PCs cause they never try to stop by cause they are always looking for a bigger place with more stuff, or they wipe of the village by taking everything it has as supplies and leaving nothing for the villagers who have this money left but nothing to spend it on.

if peasant village economies cant absorb adventurers passing through then they move on to the city and ignore the peasant village if that means peasant villages are not featured prominently in the setting then that's ok with me ill just assume there doing there own thing while im in the city doing mine

is the peasants then to become Beverly Hillbillies and jsut move to a bigger town and be able to do anything? leave their land behind and have no place to grow anything, or raise anything?

who said that it seems to me you just want to feature peasants in your setting and that's cool but doing my trading in the city is still a viable solution that does not affect the peasants daily life.

also you ahve to get your goods from that dungeon TO that bigger village, and a PC party isnt as massive and forbodding as a trade caravan. it is only slightly heavier armored than a traveling merchant. the roads are not a safe place.

yeah ok but if my party was tough enough to make through a dungeon only to get offed by highwaymen i deserve to have my loot stolen

Hire also implies spending money, as food and such would be what the PCs need. what if the village doesn't have THAT MUCH food to spare to travelers?

if they cant spare a few days of food for four people and some horses then i just have to hunt for a few days on my way to the city. yes hire does imply spending money but the thing about services is it does not cost a village anything but time to fix things and may be a pinch of leather or steal to fix up armor but if they cant absorb that my plan to take my business elsewhere to a city still solves my problem and does not affect the village

if every town has everything needed for PCs then the world looks fake like that 3 million chickens for 10,000 citizens that 3rd said. (still ahvent found that again i am going to google it now to see where that is described. i was sure Frank said it somewhere.)

once again going to a city lets you keep a realistic setting and still have a market the pc's cam operate i stand by my point that you can have to most gritty realistic peasant towns and villages in your setting if the players just do there shopping in the city that's why cities sprung up in feudal economies there trading hubs people go there to buy and sell stuff adventurers included frank said real adventurers traded in spices and other useful goods that's ok they still sold there silks and spices in the city and cities have jewelers who would use gold silver and gems so there is a market for that two

[shadzar]

to save space and jsut number repleis in order...

1. now there is a question.. how many blacksmiths exist, and what are they doing? does a weaponsmith exist in towns or are they already in the employ of the local baron/noble/king to keep weapons out of the hands of the peasants to prevent revolt? how many smiths can each town/village/city support?

2. moot point. in a world where you have magic items you dont want, it isnt that important who made them as you have them now. the question is then where do you get rid of them? discard them? find someone to buy them? trick someone into taking them? just because someone made a magic item doesnt mean they wished to do so. nor does it mean they are willing to make more or want the ones the previous made. who makes magic items? a wizard? what use does a wizard have with half of the magic weapons that can exist? he is a wizard, he uses spells, not magic maces and hammers, or worse.. magic armor. find other adventurers? has TTRPGs turned in MMOs? if there were other adventurers, wouldnt the system fit better if they werent twinked by passersby? if twinking is constant, then what chance does the PC adventuring party have against these low level munchkin NPC adventurers?

3. what happens when then those peasant villages run from the attacking hordes the PCs were meant to fight off and take refuge in that city, now overpopulated? the peasant village plays as much a part of the adventure economy as the big cities. handwaving them away doesnt work as they will always exist... those on the outskirts of civilization, those that might band together against annexation, etc. if the villages or cities jsut always have enough you are leaving TTRPG realm to make a video game where Bob the Blacksmith always has infinite swords to sell because the mass number of adventurers always are in need of buying them. and then it gets worse for the economy as it gets bad for the world as well, as then why isnt EVERYTHING so prominent that it can be bought anywhere, and you again have the low level munchkin problem with adventurers running around twinked which changes the dynamic of the game, that the system must be rewritten to allow the PCs to be able to work into it. basically making a totally new game than what you were going to play in the first place.

4. where do the peasant get things they need if they wish to trade their farmed goods? that bigger city. well the adventurers jsut came and took all the X the city had to offer, and there is none left for the peasants, so they dont trade with this city and take their wares elsewhere, now the wrench has been thrown into the economic cogs. this peasant village is now raided by the city for the wares it needs? the adventurers must be called it pro bono to help the peasants, lest they look less like heros and more like senseless mercenaries? taking up arms against the city they just fought does what for future trade and such with that city? economies are more fragile than you would lead to believe. otherwise you are looking at Bob the Blacksmith again with infinite items to sell to anyone from his video game shop.

5. true, but what is the loot that was stolen from you? art, jewelry? food? coins? desperate city-folk that couldnt get grain as they had nothing to give to the peasant village in exchange for it have now become the highwaymen, just trying to survive.

6. now THIS is excellent. why is it you hardly hear of furs and other hunted items as the "treasure" adventurers bring into town? because then what would you spend all the dragons gold on right? another problem found in the economy system of adventurers.

7. and we are back to just HOW does an adventure economy work? what are the adventurers bringing in to town? why is it always and only money and coins that it is simplified to? because James Wyatt doesnt like "talking to the little people"? (see 4E preview book)
__________
as long as the questions are ready to be answered when the time comes...it all sort of seems to work out somehow. just a broader idea of economy is needed beyond straight coin spending and magic item vending.

[Grek]

1. This is incorrect on a number of levels. A] peasants do not revolt. In D&Dland, the baron can kill an unlimited number of peasants regardless of how well they are armed. That's one of the requirements for being baron. B] Even if the peasants would revolt, having the person that repairs adventurer weapons refuse to sell weapons to peasants would not prevent peasants from arming themselves, since it is a DC 12 check to make any weapon that a peasant could be proficient with. C] Even if the peasants were somehow unable to make weapons on their own, weapons in D&Dland are not made my mundane blacksmiths, but rather by powerful wizards using Wall of Iron and Fabricate.

2. Clerics make magic weapons and magic armour, not wizards. Since clerics can, you know, use them. Paladins, rangers, bards and so forth probably also get in on the action.

3. This isn't a question. Also, you are retarded.

4. The things that adventurers buy and the things that commoners buy have very little overlap. Additionally, it is unlikely that the people making those items are working to capacity, so if there is a sudden demand for more swords, lamp oil, wool coats or whatever, they can ramp up their production to make more.

5. Again, part of being an adventurer is being dangerous enough that highwaymen will either avoid you (if they realize who you are) or get killed trying to rob you (if they don't). Any bandits who aren't completely new to banditry will realize that and start looking for the tell-tale signs of someone being an adventurer.

6. Furs are not exceptionally valuable in D&Dland, since all of the people who would realistically wear fur (nobility, the rich, etc.) can and will go beat up a tiger and take its fur if they happened to want a new fur cloak. But, for a more general answer, see 7.

7. Lots of people don't want to play Logistics and Dragons. Since you're probably going to sell the treasure to afford adventuring gear anyways, it doesn't especially matter what it was before you sold it, in the same way that if you take the 1st level "Caravan Guard" mission, it doesn't especially matter what the merchant has in those wagons.

[Seerow]

Reminder that you are literally responding to Shadzar.

[TheFlatline]

The offset to the Adventurer Economy is Peasant Vegas: locations designed specifically to extract and process excess currency from people. In this case, you have an adventurer-driven economy, but to keep everything from being Gold Rush-ish where the local church bingo game has 5,000 gp pots and an egg is 1 gp, you have to presume that Peasant Vegas a) focuses on nonproductive extraction (whores, gambling, shows) and b) absorbs a lot of excess productive capacity from the surrounding region and funnels it into one spot.

So Peasant Vegas, founded on the doorstep to the Dungeon of Despair, regularly imports loads of dungeon-delving goods for those that try their luck, and loads of corn-fed healthy adolescents as low-income staff and whores, and buys up wine from regions near and far, and has fabulous inns as good as anything anywhere else, employing carpenters and masons from very far away - all to separate the adventurers that come out of the Dungeon from their riches. (And, if Peasant Vegas lasts long enough, there develops some secondary trade to cover the needs of the workers and townsfolk.)

Yhatzee from Zero Punctuation supports the Peasant Vegas theory. I mean, you find a place that's close enough to Ye Dungeon of Despair to be convenient, but not too close, and the steady stream of adventurers rent rooms at the inn, buy potions, have the church heal them, etc etc...

If I ever run D&D again I'm totally going to award low-level treasure as goods and materials.

You killed the goblins! You search their cave, and come across *rolls* 37 tons of iron ore, *rolls* 12 barrels of pickled glowing cave mushrooms, *rolls* and 20 inexpertly cured sausages of questionable origin.

Should be worth like 200 gold if you can get it all back to town. Do you have a wagon train?

[TheFlatline]

the thing is will every blacksmith stop making nails for the locals just to sharpen your sword?

not every blacksmith it takes only one to fix a sword and i doubt the city would suffer from having there sword smith fix swords

A swordsmith is a highly specialized activity that is related to but distinct from blacksmithing. I know from personal experience.

Fixing a sword is time consuming and uses an inordinate amount of supplies. You need coal, coke, or charcoal to run a forge, and I can either waste three day's worth of fuel fixing your stupid fucking longsword for a couple GPs, or I could keep making nails and plow blades and hammers and knives and forks and other tools.

I can't use the money you give me to get coal/coke/charcoal any faster than I already get it: as Frank said, the only way that works is if there's a gigantic source of fuel that isn't being mined out at peak capacity. So for every sword I fix, that's a couple days that the town is SOL. Farmer bill needs a plow blade so he can sew his crops so that I can eat and drink this winter, and the carpenter needs a new hammer so that he can fix my leaking roof. 5 GP won't do fuck-all to fix that. Plus, I'm out 3 days fuel.

At *best*, I'm slightly better off the next time a travelling merchant comes through town, but even then, that doesn't help see to the self-sustainability of the village.

[TheFlatline]

One solution is to have an order of high level clerics and mages working together to form a trade guild. The clerics use divination to determine where surpluses and demands are, and the mages use rituals and magic to teleport their large wagon trains between towns and hamlets.

They're faster than traditional merchant trains, and far more able to get where the market needs them, so they're probably the richest motherf*ckers on the planet.

Such a thing is complex and complicated enough to fascinate high-level wizards and clerics and keep them on the prime realm instead of realm-hopping.

[flare22]

the thing is will every blacksmith stop making nails for the locals just to sharpen your sword?

not every blacksmith it takes only one to fix a sword and i doubt the city would suffer from having there sword smith fix swords

A swordsmith is a highly specialized activity that is related to but distinct from blacksmithing. I know from personal experience.

Fixing a sword is time consuming and uses an inordinate amount of supplies. You need coal, coke, or charcoal to run a forge, and I can either waste three day's worth of fuel fixing your stupid fucking longsword for a couple GPs, or I could keep making nails and plow blades and hammers and knives and forks and other tools.

I can't use the money you give me to get coal/coke/charcoal any faster than I already get it: as Frank said, the only way that works is if there's a gigantic source of fuel that isn't being mined out at peak capacity. So for every sword I fix, that's a couple days that the town is SOL. Farmer bill needs a plow blade so he can sew his crops so that I can eat and drink this winter, and the carpenter needs a new hammer so that he can fix my leaking roof. 5 GP won't do fuck-all to fix that. Plus, I'm out 3 days fuel.

At *best*, I'm slightly better off the next time a travelling merchant comes through town, but even then, that doesn't help see to the self-sustainability of the village.

you said you know from experience that sword making and repair is hard fair enough then in your expert opinion how did soldiers in the middle ages get swords made and repaired you don't have to be a European history major to know people in Europe used swords so were did they come from the answer is smith so they cant be some overworked making nails that they cant make and repair swords or we wouldn't have all those nice long swords in the first place would we?

ill tell you were soldiers who had enough money ordered them then the smith made them and when a knight needed his sword fixed they paid for that two and since knights were professional soldiers not farmers how did they pay for the service? well they did it one of two ways either they ordered a smith who was in there service to do it for free or if they were mercenaries they paid for it. but how does a mercenary pay for something
they only have what they can carry or if there lucky what there horse can carry so sell swords in the middle ages had to come up with something to buy things that was both portable and valuable to every culture in Europe and the answer was metal coins not usually gold but metal coins none the
less

now granted not every soldier could afford a sword let alone good armor most soldiers in the middle ages fought in boiled leather and used spears but my point still stands metals coin including gold was a common means of exchange that blacksmiths could except

oh and as two what a smith can use gold for sure a wondering merchant works but ever consider a smith might get a custom order for a sword with a pommel inlaid with gold? hell as a metal smith he could even rework coin into jewelry he could sell

[Grek]

Remember, in D&D, the local smith is not the one who makes nails, hammers and plow blades.

Iron goods come into town on wagons from the Tower of the Iron Wizard two kingdoms over, where a 12th level wizard makes five times the annual steel production of Europe every April. He does this by summoning giant walls of iron in the courtyard in front of his wizard tower, then waggling his fingers to make the iron magically forge itself into iron barrels overflowing with iron nails, surrounded by mounds of iron hammers and stacks of steel skillets. Anything made of iron that is needed in any kind of bulk is created via his magic.

Your local smith's job is to forge items that are either rare enough that they have to be custom made (such as masterwork dire flails and chimera-sized steel codpieces), cannot be made of mage-forged iron (such as cold iron daggers and silver swords) and to repair metal goods that get broken. So, the local smith really doesn't have anything better to be doing than to cater to the whims of passing adventurers. Which is probably for the best, since that's good for the game.

[virgil]

Your local smith's job is to forge items that are either rare enough that they have to be custom made (such as masterwork dire flails and chimera-sized steel codpieces), cannot be made of mage-forged iron (such as cold iron daggers and silver swords) and to repair metal goods that get broken. So, the local smith really doesn't have anything better to be doing than to cater to the whims of passing adventurers. Which is probably for the best, since that's good for the game.

Not quite. The mage is only going to be interested in supplying the high value items. Better to make a master lock than 23 nails from the same amount of material; and masterwork dire flails will be around because of demand from the Flind Merchant. Let the lowly smiths handle stuff like pots and nails and custom-made bulky stuff.

[shadzar]

in your expert opinion how did soldiers in the middle ages get swords made and repaired

the local town didnt do it. the kings smithies would run non-stop to make weapons. being able to make nails doesnt make one able to make good swords.

you have been watching too many Johnny Depp Pirate's movies if you think smiting worked like that. Even then that smith was employed by the royal navy or whatever it was there, not just selling to all the peasants. peasants didnt fight with swords, they used the pitchforks, torches, axes, and other farm implements. this is because the peasant blacksmith was too busy shoeing horses, making nails and hammers and axes to be able to make swords.

whoever runs the army would have their own smith to handle armor and weapons, and probably a few, as well as apprentices. they would probably get the nails and such for building them FROM the peasant villages that makes enough of them so the sword smiths don't have to stop to make nails, horseshoes, etc.