4e magic items!

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

So. 4e magic item slot article is up and about.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... [br][br]No more Christmas tree! And from previous news, no more stat boosters!
One of our goals in 4th Edition was to reduce characters’ reliance on magic items. The most important portion of this goal involved removing a lot of the magic items that were essential just so your character could feel effective, like stat-boosting items, amulets of natural armor, and the like. We also felt like these items weren't as exciting as magic items should be, yet characters depended on them heavily to feel adequate in proportion to their level. We felt that the cool stuff a character can do should come from that character’s abilities, not his gear.

Items are divided by item slot, much like they were in D&D 3.5 (though it took until Magic Item Compendium for the system to be quantified clearly). As before, you can only wear one item in each slot. The number of slots has been reduced (by combining slots that were similar), to keep the number of items manageable and easy to remem-ber. You still have a ton of choices for items in the game, and when we were still using more slots, our playtesters reported that it caused information overload.

Primary Slots

We've preserved a number of items that have traditional “plusses.” These are the items we expect everybody to care about, and the ones that are factored into the math behind the game. If you’re 9th level, we expect you to have a set of +2 armor, and the challenges in the game at that level are balanced accordingly. Here are the primary item slots:

Weapon/Implement: Whether you’re swinging a mace or blasting with a magic wand, you have an item that adds to your attack and damage. These weapons also set your critical hit dice (the extra dice you roll when you score a critical hit, see the Design & Development article, "Critical Hits"). Even though this is called an item slot, that doesn’t mean you can’t wield more than one weapon, because that would make the ranger cry. 3.5 Equivalents: Weapons, holy symbols, rods, staffs, wands.

Armor: This category now includes cloth armor, so the wizard in robes has magic armor just like the rest of the group. Magic armor adds an enhancement bonus to your Armor Class. 3.5 Equivalents: Body, torso.

Neck: An item in the neck slot increases your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defenses, as well as usually doing something else snappy. The most common items are amulets and cloaks. 3.5 Equivalents: Shoulders, throat.

Secondary Slots

These items don’t have enhancement bonuses. That makes them essentially optional. You could adventure with no items in your secondary item slots and not see a huge decrease in your overall power. Take what looks cool, but don’t worry about having empty slots.

Arms: These are bulky items that fit over your arms, such as bracers, vambraces, and shields. You’ll notice that shields no longer have an enhancement bonus. Instead, shields have special defensive effects and items you wear instead of shields, like bracers, are more offensive. 3.5 Equivalents: Arms, shields.

Feet: Focused on mobility and special movement modes, you can be pretty sure what you’re getting when you look at magic boots, greaves, or sandals. 3.5 Equivalent: Feet.

Hands: Thinner items that fit on your hands fall into this category. This includes gauntlets and gloves. They usu-ally help out your attacks or help your manual dexterity. 3.5 Equivalent: Hands.

Head: These items increase your mental skills or enhance your senses. Helmets, circlets, and goggles all fall in this category. Another major subcategory here includes orbitals, such as ioun stones. If you see someone with an orbital, it’s a good bet you’re dealing with an epic character. 3.5 Equivalents: Face, head.

Rings: This slot has changed quite a bit. A starting character isn’t powerful enough to unleash the power of a ring. You can use one ring when you reach paragon tier (11th level) and two when you’re epic (21st level). And before you get started about how Frodo sure as hell wasn’t epic, let's be clear: the One Ring was an artifact, not a magic item any old spellcaster could make. Artifacts follow their own rules. 3.5 Equivalent: Rings.

Waist: Items you wear around your waist are usually about protection, healing, or increasing your Strength tem-porarily. 3.5 Equivalent: Waist.

Other Items

Some items don’t use item slots. Some of them aren’t useful in combat. Others can be useful in a fight, but only once in a while.

Potions: Potions are consumable items, and they're mostly focused on healing effects.

Wondrous Items: This category no longer includes wearable items. These are utility items that don’t take up space on your body or act as weapons.

Example

Here’s what my 11th-level gnome warlock, Dessin, is wearing right now:

Implement: +3 rod of dark reward
Armor: +3 leather armor
Neck: +2 cloak of survival
Arms: Bracers of the perfect shot
Feet: Wavestrider boots
Hands: Shadowfell gloves
Head: Diadem of acuity
Rings: None right now, sadly
Waist: Belt of battle
Wondrous Items: Bag of holding


Or, um. Not. Wtf. Glad they didn't make any high sounding claims earlier on in the design process, right? Good thing those secondary items won't be a *huge* power issue. If they help with attacks and strength boosts, they'll still be something of a power issue, though.

Wands/staves/wands aren't consumables anymore, at least thats something. And no sign of scrolls.

But it doesn't address per day items that you can swap out for other per day items. Potions and wonderous items don't often affect combat, but clearly no one will be stockpiling the ones that do... :rolleyes:

And for the stupid of stupid. You aren't 11th level! You can't wear a magic ring. No, not even a Ring of Dirt Doesn't Stick to Clothes. Damn powergaming bitches.
And by the way, have a checklist of what levels you should expect to have certain + items.

Sad little motherfuckers. Hey, we made a four alarm problem a three alarm problem. Aren't we awesome at design?

Crazy ass discussion here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=217253

User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Leress »

It doesn't look like they reduced a damn thing, just moved all the pluses to armor and weapons, and divided it into "this shit matters" and "this shit is just sprinkles"

The "you have to be this tall to use a ring" is just dumb.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

Techinically, they cut out 4 slots, I think. (I know. Woo.)

Supposedly there aren't anymore permanent stat enhancers, and maybe natural armor, deflection and that sort of thing is gone. But that may be just hopeful speculation by fanwankers.

I think 'essentially optional' is somehow code for 'your dm doesn't have to give it to you, but feel free to whine if you don't get it'. But, of course, the primary items are must have, because, of course, they're built into the math. I wonder if thats true for NPCs too?
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Leress »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1201152183[/unixtime]]
Supposedly there aren't anymore permanent stat enhancers, and maybe natural armor, deflection and that sort of thing is gone. But that may be just hopeful speculation by fanwankers.
Shields give defensive abilities and bracers give offensive ones...there is still room. Those numbers may have been injected into the classes themselves.

I think 'essentially optional' is somehow code for 'your dm doesn't have to give it to you, but feel free to whine if you don't get it'. But, of course, the primary items are must have, because, of course, they're built into the math. I wonder if thats true for NPCs too?


Well yeah, they are optional since they don't give you pluses that don't really matter as much as the numbers. Hell even the armor on the sample character had the Diablo-ish "of survival " attached to it.

It is good though that they are changing Ioun stones to having a limit.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

Permanent stat enhancers have been declared gone in another article or blog or something. (Of course so did temporary ones, but thats there anyway. Stupid bastards)

Yes. 1 ioun stone. And only for 21st level or higher.

I doubt the players and optimizers will find the secondary items optional. The examples they give leave a lot of room for cheese.


I think my biggest problem with this is they're seriously stepping into the books and saying 'This is the official way Magic Items must be, because dammit, this is the way we like to play, so it must be right. It doesn't even matter if it improves the game in some way'.
User avatar
CatharzGodfoot
King
Posts: 5668
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

It's about as good a video game solution as one could hope for from WotC. Aside from the ring issue (which they have a reason for -- remember that in 3e rings could not be made by casters < 11).

I'm hoping that all consumables are classified as 'wonderous items', and that they don't get too uptight about what you do with the item (e.g. you could have a trinket that goes around your finger, and will turn into a snake if you throw it to the ground, but isn't a "Ring").
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France

Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.

-Josh Kablack

Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

Made, no. Used, yes. (And quite a few were only useful for low level characters). And I still can't figure out whats gained by not having low powered rings.

As for consumables, they may just be potions. But, more than likely they'll be inconsistent about it.

After all, there's a whole Magic Item supplement coming out in August or something. Maybe it can fix the magic item rules that are broken in June?
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by K »

Wow. They've cut out so few magic item slots that I didn't even notice at first pass. They also cut out "stat enhancers" and I still need a maxxed out armor and weapon to play a fighter. Mmmm, how is this different from 3e?

I also like how I could read the entire list of items on the sample character, close my eyes, and only remember one and a half items (I misremembered the plusses on the armor).

Best idea ever.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

If you want real amusement, go over to ENworld thread link. Someone just seriously told me that magic items won't work in the hands of NPCs. At first I thought he was implying that they pull the old 'keep them in treasure chests and don't use them against the players' bullshit, but no. He means that they have them, but they honestly don't work, and don't affect the NPC's statblock.

This is stupid enough that he (almost, and it makes me inherently sad for the game that I have to qualify that) has to be pulling it out of his ass. But he's That Guy, and he must defend 4e and the design team from any and all criticism.

It gets amusing in page 6, put this shit really starts in page 7.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p ... 4010530[br]
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by JonSetanta »

Item slots should be even more limited than this.
Like, Chrono Trigger limited.
One offensive, one defensive, one weapon, one 'special'.
That's it.

I'd rather see much more limited bonus types:
Item
Class
Race
Magic (from spell buffs and similar)
Situation

Limiting the crazyretarded stackingcrap pervading all of D&D would be a nice touch, but no... they will probably make the same mistake.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
User avatar
Crissa
King
Posts: 6720
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Santa Cruz

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Crissa »

Why is the Bag of Holding on his equipment list? Does it change encounters any? What happens if he decides it's not on his list?

And why does he have a gem in his head but not a ring?

-Crissa
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by RandomCasualty »

One of our goals in 4th Edition was to reduce characters’ reliance on magic items.


Consider that goal a failure.

Do the designers just state a goal at the beginning and hope people are so dumb that they will just assume whatever follows is going to be consistent with the stated topic sentence? Or do they seriously think that they accomplished the goal that they laid out?

There's no more christmas tree, I'm just decked out head to toe in items.

Wtf?
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

But... 'they secondary items aren't required'.
They just make you awesome.

And now, the ENworld thread has just been graced with the assertion that the ability to fly does not increase your characters power. Funniest shit all week.
SphereOfFeetMan
Knight-Baron
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

It's shit like this that makes me seriously consider if they think of new editions in the following manner: "Ok. We need to make enough changes that the new edition will be incompatible with the last edition, yet not significantly better, so that we will have enough fodder to change for the edition after this newest one. Remember people, the greatest danger is making the perfect game."
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
User avatar
Ice9
Duke
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Ice9 »

Honestly, how good a solution is there for a problem where no-one agrees on the end goal? Some people are judging this a failure because it doesn't deliver a low/no-magic-items game.

But that's by no means a universally desired thing. Some people like magic items, and they want magic items to have effects that actually matter. This by itself means that having magic items will make you more powerful, and the system does need to assume a certain level of items as a baseline.


So the ideal system, under the circumstances, would be one where having more/less magic items didn't change balance between classes, and translated to a simple adjustment like "with low-items, foes should be X levels lower; with high-items, X levels higher".

I'm not sure the 4E system accomplishes this, but it comes a lot closer than 3E did.


Personally, it seems fine. I've never really looked to D&D for low-magic gaming, so my only issue was that buying too many quirky items made you die. Now that the quirky items aren't interchangable with the primary combat boosters, you've got more flexibility in picking them. That's assuming they don't screw up the relative pricing of secondary items too badly, of course - but at least there's a flying chance now.
Draco_Argentum
Duke
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Its not that though. The bitching here is that they haven't removed reliance on magic items right after they said they were doing that.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by JonSetanta »

Really, did anyone expect them to meet that objective?
Probably just some idea someone on The Wiz popped in, and a editor took it, rinsed it around in their head a little, and jotted down an article. That's all I see.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Username17 »

Indeed. Probably my biggest complaint is that bracers apparently add to your attacks. I mean sure, Bracers of Archery have always existed, but in this case they came out with the claim that there was going to be math that assumed that your character would get an attack bonus from a weapon and a defense bonus from armor (and more importantly: your cloak, because armor just adds to AC and your cloak adds to all three other defenses). But according to them you can get an attack bonus from your bracers on top of that. So either:
  • They are lying and the bracer bonus is included in the math anyway, meaning that people who don't get it will get pushed off the random number generator.
    or
  • Bracers of Attack Bonuses are "broken" in that merely having one will push you off the random number generator.


But what this really betrays is a shocking lack of understanding of even basic bonus accumulation theory. It's not so much that people running around with piles of weird magic items on every part of their body and stacking the enhancements together just to keep up is anything new, it's that this isn't new. This has been going on for literally longer than anyone on the current design team has been alive, and if they say that they've addressed it and then make it blatantly obvious that they don't know what "it" is - that makes me uncomfortable.

-Username17
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Username17 »

Ugh. Reading that thread was painful. People spazzing out about how there are no examples of magic rings that are not extremely powerful. When even a trip to Wikipedia's Magic Ring Entry would give you myths of magic rings which had the power to make a person fall in love with someone else or change color under certain circumstances.

Yes. It's a magic ring, it fvcking changes color. Obviously neither it nor the one which makes gold bands every day could possibly be mastered or used by someone who couldn't kill an elephant with a teaspoon, because that would be silly.

-Username17
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Leress »

Hey Voss, tell that asshat Mourn to read the book the Rose and the Ring and have a cup of suck the fuck up.

Also ask Mourn to name a book were the characters had more than 4 magical items on each person. Or stories where they had to go and up grade their armor and weapons (that don't break)
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13877
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1201180812[/unixtime]]
Yes. It's a magic ring, it fvcking changes color. Obviously neither it nor the one which makes gold bands every day could possibly be mastered or used by someone who couldn't kill an elephant with a teaspoon, because that would be silly.


Fuck yeah! I wore a mood ring once, which I thought was merely heat-based, like those little black panels of plastic that, when you rub them and warm them up, go to red, orange, yellow, green, then blue. But clearly it's a magical effect, and I was what, 11th level or higher when I was a kid. Sweet.

(Or possibly this tells us that 11th level characters will be as strong as I was as a kid).

That being said, my dog (not the one that lives with me, the old one that lived with my mum) died last week, so I probably lost enough XP to lose a level.

No, that wasn't a "gief sympathy plz" comment, just another eye-roll and comment on stupid shit by WotC.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Neeek
Knight-Baron
Posts: 652
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Neeek »

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1201181403[/unixtime]]
Also ask Mourn to name a book were the characters had more than 4 magical items on each person.


Well, there is the Sandstone Thing. It's just a short story though. And so very bad... Also, some mythological heroes and gods had quite a few signature items.

Or stories where they had to go and up grade their armor and weapons (that don't break)


I'd add the caveat "more than once". Having to go seek/create the magic sword that can kill the BBEG is hardly unheard of. Doing it more than once, or for more than one item, is a little strange.
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by tzor »

There is a really bad (so bad it's sort of good) Perseus movie that literally has the hero practically loosing every magic item he is given (including pegasus although in the end he gets him back) after the item was no longer required. It was a good example of the so called magical liberal solution to heros (you can solve any problem by throwing magic items at the hero).

(The movie by the way was Clash of the Titans and also included the Greek version of R2D2, the clockwork owl Bubo which only Perseus could understand.)
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Voss »

Frank, the bracers and whatnot probably won't add directly to the numbers. Its going to be the subtle shit, rerolls and negating penalties and weird circumstantial shit that doesn't factor directly into mathematical formula, but makes you awesome regardless.

So when everything is fucked up and broken, they can argue, 'But the numbers are fine!'
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: 4e magic items!

Post by Username17 »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1201205214[/unixtime]]Frank, the bracers and whatnot probably won't add directly to the numbers. Its going to be the subtle shit, rerolls and negating penalties and weird circumstantial shit that doesn't factor directly into mathematical formula, but makes you awesome regardless.

So when everything is fucked up and broken, they can argue, 'But the numbers are fine!'


You know, when I see them throwing around the idea that belts will give temporary bonuses to Strength, I just don't think I believe that anymore.

They said they were removing stat bonus items because those were "no brainers" - so now they've announced that you "don't need" the stat boosting items and that they are back as items which give their bonuses on a temporary basis because that way it's more of a pain in the ass and requires more accounting. But it's the same Strength Bonus in the same belt. It's just as much of a no brainer as it was before.

-Username17
Post Reply