How do we get rid of the Fighter

[darkmaster]

You're missing the point. For 30 odd years (up to 4e), players introduced to D&D were explicitly told that they were going to be playing Conan, Arthur, Aragorn, Jack the Giant Killer and so on. Merlin was over in the wizard class, and half the cleric spells were right out of the Old Testament, specifically Kings, with the wacky prophets intent on destroying the Jewish people in order to reform them.

So, what you're saying is that it's okay to actually not represent what people want to play in your system, as long as you just say you're representing what they want and they believe it.

So guys did you know that people die when they are killed?

[Drolyt]

Yeah, it is King Arthur/Robin Hood/LotR/the Bible, blatantly and explicitly so.
Unless you mean 4e when you say 'D&D,' of course.

Let us back up. Quite aside from dealing with high level spellcasters, the D&D fighter is so poorly designed that he in fact cannot handle those sources. Robin Hood and Aragorn can almost be represented by the ranger, maybe with some multiclassing (Aragorn probably has some levels of Paladin and Marshall), but the fighter represents nothing well, and some characters are impossible in D&D. There is basically no way to represent any but the most mundane legends of the Knights of the Round Table, certainly not the early Celtic version of King Arthur. Samson similarly does not work in D&D, since even the Tarrasque has trouble destroying buildings in these insane rules. Honestly, the rules for destroying things are probably the first thing that should be changed.

You're missing the point. For 30 odd years (up to 4e), players introduced to D&D were explicitly told that they were going to be playing Conan, Arthur, Aragorn, Jack the Giant Killer and so on. Merlin was over in the wizard class, and half the cleric spells were right out of the Old Testament, specifically Kings, with the wacky prophets intent on destroying the Jewish people in order to reform them.

So their (quite legitimate) expectations are that the source material consists those things, and not DC superheroes, Naruto, or whatever the fuck. Whether D&D does it badly is not equivalent to what expectations are, or what the source material is.

Now, if you want to build a new 'D&D' where the expectations and source material are different, that is fine, knock yourself out. But you should recognize that is what you are doing. As WotC shows with 4e and 5e, trying to change those expectations and be successful at it is a fucking nightmare, to the point that they have legitimately crashed the line. Meanwhile, even though Pathfinder is still bad, they made an effort not to change expectations, and by default more or less get to carry the D&D legacy.

If it isn't too much work, could you give me a breakdown of how cleric spells were inspired by the Old Testament, because I didn't know that and it sounds interesting.

As for your point, I don't really disagree with you, but I don't think any version of "fighter" in D&D ever actually mechanically supported those characters. If people were playing that at all it was at least half magical tea party, because the actual rules don't let fighters do anything but swing their sword and they aren't even very good at that unless you support them with magic items.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Not all of the cleric spells were inspired by the old testament. A lot of them are Catholic or classical mythology pastiches.

But seriously, if you don't see how Sticks to Snakes or Insect Plague or Flame Strike are obvious allusions to Old Testament magic, I don't know what to tell you.

[Kaelik]

Vancian casting is one of the worst game mechanics ever and should die in a fire. In the source material different spellcasters know different spells and there is a real difference between the guy who can transform himself into a dragon and the guy who can shoot fire out of his ass. In D&D every single wizard/codzilla looks like you combed through every comic book ever published by DC or Marvel, made every power you could find into a fucking spell, and gave the class all those spells, but then you decided that was too much so you said "well, maybe if they don't have all their powers at once..." and that didn't work because that is a fucking horrible idea and now you can't make a class that doesn't have access to every super power ever without breaking the game. Period. Because vancian casting is a completely unworkable mechanic.

So:

1) Vancian casting is not identical to having all the spells. You could imagine Vancian casting off a smaller list.

2) Perhaps, if you were designing the game from scratch you would not want a class like Wizard. Perhaps. But that is a preference thing, there is nothing fundamentally impossible about having a versatile class with only specific selections for today vs classes that can't change their out of combat abilities but have slightly better ones than the Wizard.

3) If you aren't designing a game from scratch and are instead working from 3e, then for damn sure you don't get rid of the Wizard/Cleric, because the Wizard/Cleric is an essential character concept in the game, as evidenced by every time someone plays the game without them and discovers the one niggling thing they can't do anything about, like being cursed.

[Drolyt]

Not all of the cleric spells were inspired by the old testament. A lot of them are Catholic or classical mythology pastiches.

But seriously, if you don't see how Sticks to Snakes or Insect Plague or Flame Strike are obvious allusions to Old Testament magic, I don't know what to tell you.

I can certainly see that for some spells, but I thought maybe it was true for more than I realized. To me the cleric spell list, while more thematic than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, still seems pretty random.

Vancian casting is one of the worst game mechanics ever and should die in a fire. In the source material different spellcasters know different spells and there is a real difference between the guy who can transform himself into a dragon and the guy who can shoot fire out of his ass. In D&D every single wizard/codzilla looks like you combed through every comic book ever published by DC or Marvel, made every power you could find into a fucking spell, and gave the class all those spells, but then you decided that was too much so you said "well, maybe if they don't have all their powers at once..." and that didn't work because that is a fucking horrible idea and now you can't make a class that doesn't have access to every super power ever without breaking the game. Period. Because vancian casting is a completely unworkable mechanic.

So:

1) Vancian casting is not identical to having all the spells. You could imagine Vancian casting off a smaller list.

2) Perhaps, if you were designing the game from scratch you would not want a class like Wizard. Perhaps. But that is a preference thing, there is nothing fundamentally impossible about having a versatile class with only specific selections for today vs classes that can't change their out of combat abilities but have slightly better ones than the Wizard.

3) If you aren't designing a game from scratch and are instead working from 3e, then for damn sure you don't get rid of the Wizard/Cleric, because the Wizard/Cleric is an essential character concept in the game, as evidenced by every time someone plays the game without them and discovers the one niggling thing they can't do anything about, like being cursed.

1) That would be even more stupid. "Guess what challenge the DM will have us face today" has never been a fun mechanic and it was only ever necessary to restrain the wizard's ability to rape the game.
2) It doesn't work that way. At all. The wizard has to be at least competent at everything he does or there is no fucking point in it. Which means that a vancian wizard with any reasonable spell list can solve every problem ever. Sure, maybe you have another character that is theoretically better, but because win/lose is binary either the wizard can't do it or the character that does it better is pointless.
3) Wizards and clerics don't have to use vancian casting though. In fact it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to use it, very little of the source material does anything like that.

[RiotGearEpsilon]

In the actual Jack Vance novels, wizards were very competent and dangerous people well before they actually cast any spells. If you want Vancian casting, you'll benefit from Vancian everything else - which is to say, the spells aren't your default means of interacting with the world so much as the ace in your back pocket when your tricksy-fucker nature fails you.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Can we say 'spell charges' instead of 'Vancian' from now on when referring to systems like the basic full-caster scheme of D&D?

I can certainly see that for some spells, but I thought maybe it was true for more than I realized. To me the cleric spell list, while more thematic than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, still seems pretty random.

Well, a lot of stuff on the cleric list is common to multiple religions. It's not hard at all to find a Biblical story which uses Bestow Curse or Contagion, but that shit is common to all religions. The hints are in the eerily specific spells like Sticks to Snakes and Bless Water.

[Drolyt]

Can we say 'spell charges' instead of 'Vancian' from now on when referring to systems like the basic full-caster scheme of D&D?

Well, that sounds like it would include the sorcerer, and I actually don't have a problem with the sorcerer, although it still isn't the best mechanic possible.

I can certainly see that for some spells, but I thought maybe it was true for more than I realized. To me the cleric spell list, while more thematic than the sorcerer/wizard spell list, still seems pretty random.

Well, a lot of stuff on the cleric list is common to multiple religions. It's not hard at all to find a Biblical story which uses Bestow Curse or Contagion, but that shit is common to all religions. The hints are in the eerily specific spells like Sticks to Snakes and Bless Water.

Okay, I was just being a dumb ass and reading way too much into what Voss said. I'm a bit tired because I've been having trouble sleeping.

[zugschef]

Can we say 'spell charges' instead of 'Vancian' from now on when referring to systems like the basic full-caster scheme of D&D?

Well, that sounds like it would include the sorcerer, and I actually don't have a problem with the sorcerer, although it still isn't the best mechanic possible.

there is no best possible mechanic in the first place and the real problem with dnd's casting is that combat spells and out-of combat spells are prepared in the same slots.

[Drolyt]

Can we say 'spell charges' instead of 'Vancian' from now on when referring to systems like the basic full-caster scheme of D&D?

Well, that sounds like it would include the sorcerer, and I actually don't have a problem with the sorcerer, although it still isn't the best mechanic possible.

there is no best possible mechanic in the first place and the real problem with dnd's casting is that combat spells and out-of combat spells are prepared in the same slots.

That is definitely one of the problems, but I'm not sure it is the biggest.

[Kaelik]

1) That would be even more stupid. "Guess what challenge the DM will have us face today" has never been a fun mechanic and it was only ever necessary to restrain the wizard's ability to rape the game.

Um, what? Okay, this criticism has literally nothing to do with point one at all. The point of Vancian casting from a smaller list is that it wouldn't matter if you could guess what you were facing. If you had a class who prepared spells from the Dread Necromancer list (and probably with slightly more variety than that) it wouldn't matter if he was facing demons or dragons or humans, because he would prepare finger of death anyway.

Secondly... what? You don't always get to know what you are facing every day. That is a fundamental conciet of everything ever. If you knew exactly what you were facing that would be weird, and actually, really shitty, because then you would know before you started the optimal actions to take, and it would just be a die rolling exercise.

"Guessing" what the DM will send at you is something Wizards do because they want to be as effective as possible, not something invented to cripple their cosmic power. No one ever knows what the DM is going to send, and the game is better that way.

Thirdly, do you still not get that this is about fucking out of combat effects. It doesn't fucking matter if you know what enemies you are going to face when you are talking about out of combat utility. (Sometimes it can, if you know you are fighting mermen.)

2) It doesn't work that way. At all. The wizard has to be at least competent at everything he does or there is no fucking point in it. Which means that a vancian wizard with any reasonable spell list can solve every problem ever. Sure, maybe you have another character that is theoretically better, but because win/lose is binary either the wizard can't do it or the character that does it better is pointless.

You are completely retarded. Firstly, Wizard is the very definition of when combats are not pass/fail. Winning the fight with no spells left is objectively worse than winning the combat will all your spells left, but both are not fails.

Secondly, Do you not get how vancian casting works? You have to prepare spells. If you can prepare every spell on your list, then you are doing it wrong. So in fact any Wizard with a reasonable spell list has two choices: 1) Try to be as good at solving the problems he will face that day as the Snowscaper by preparing spells specifically designed for solving certain problems. However, if he doesn't have the right spells he will be much worse than the Snowscaper.
2) Try to be slightly worse than the Snowscaper but prepare for a wider variety. Being not as good at solving particular problems, but have a much higher floor to go with the lower ceiling.

This applies to combat: Banishment kicks ass on Demons, but is useless against undead. But Orb of Force is mediocre against both of them. And it applies to out of combat: Teleport is generically useful for getting around, but not as good as something like Ice Mirror if you are going into the underdark.

3) Wizards and clerics don't have to use vancian casting though. In fact it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to use it, very little of the source material does anything like that.

The next time you say "source material" you should just stop talking instead. The source material for D&D is D&D campaigns, not single author fiction. This isn't the 70's, the rules don't come with a list of books that "inspired" them. If your argument is that something should be in the rules for any reason other than "it will make the game better" you should just stop talking.

Vancian casting is a perfectly acceptable resource management scheme, it isn't my favorite, but it is useful to keep in the game precisely because the actual source material stops making sense without it. Which is why D&D should probably keep it but provide more options, while heartbreakers are more free to ignore it.

[Drolyt]

The next time you say "source material" you should just stop talking instead. The source material for D&D is D&D campaigns, not single author fiction. This isn't the 70's, the rules don't come with a list of books that "inspired" them. If your argument is that something should be in the rules for any reason other than "it will make the game better" you should just stop talking.

And vancian casting makes your game worse. It is a clunky resource mechanic that is not at all intuitive and makes the game difficult for newbies. There is a whole fucking chapter in the PHB that is devoted entirely to explaining the insanity that is the vancian casting system. There is a reason people latched onto the damn warlock, and it isn't because they wanted to suck or thought their spellcasters weren't emo enough, it is because a huge swath of the playerbase, including many I have personally played with, fucking hate vancian casting and for that sole reason stick to playing barbarians in core.

I brought up the source material because emulating something in fantasy fiction is a valid thing to want to do. I don't play D&D because I thought the fucking D&D movie or cartoon was any good, I want to play interesting characters. Basically no character anyone would ever want to make requires vancian casting and many characters are harder to make that way because it doesn't allow you to customize your spell lists.

Saying that you could theoretically have both a limited spell list and vancian casting misses the point. Vancian casting in no way makes the game better on its own, so why keep it?

[Kaelik]

And vancian casting makes your game worse. It is a clunky resource mechanic that is not at all intuitive and makes the game difficult for newbies. There is a whole fucking chapter in the PHB that is devoted entirely to explaining the insanity that is the vancian casting system. There is a reason people latched onto the damn warlock, and it isn't because they wanted to suck or thought their spellcasters weren't emo enough, it is because a huge swath of the playerbase, including many I have personally played with, fucking hate vancian casting and for that sole reason stick to playing barbarians in core.

I brought up the source material because emulating something in fantasy fiction is a valid thing to want to do. I don't play D&D because I thought the fucking D&D movie or cartoon was any good, I want to play interesting characters. Basically no character anyone would ever want to make requires vancian casting and many characters are harder to make that way because it doesn't allow you to customize your spell lists.

Saying that you could theoretically have both a limited spell list and vancian casting misses the point. Vancian casting in no way makes the game better on its own, so why keep it?

Reading your posts is like entering a bizzaro world where a guy named Vancian Casting brutally murdered your parents in front of you and then raped you for days.

Literally nothing you say about the actual mechanic of vancian casting demonstrates that you even know what it is, but somehow it is at fault for literally everything that is wrong with your life. So point by point:

It is a clunky resource mechanic that is not at all intuitive and makes the game difficult for newbies. There is a whole fucking chapter in the PHB that is devoted entirely to explaining the insanity that is the vancian casting system.

Um... no. It is a simple mechanic that is explained very shortly. So shortly in fact that the entire explanation in full, along with slight variations, is repeated four times in the Classes Chapter. Here is the entire explanation of how Vancian casting works for the Cleric in full, along with bonus information in addition to the description:

A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below).

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Now, you may be thinking of the Magic Overview Chapter, because you are an idiot. The Magic Overview Chapter explains how effects interact, but in fact, if you made everyone in the game at will casters instead of Vancian, the game would run just fine without changing even a single goddam word of the Magic Overview Chapter. That is because how targeting spells works has literally nothing to do with the management of spells as a resource.

it is because a huge swath of the playerbase, including many I have personally played with, fucking hate vancian casting and for that sole reason stick to playing barbarians in core.

You can have whatever personal preferences you want, but don't project them onto a complete rejection of a resource mechanic. You are projecting your hatred onto other people who just happen to like other resource mechanics without wanting to eliminate perfectly viable mechanics. I personally don't like playing vancian casters as much as at will ones, which is why I make at will caster classes. But I also never want to play a character that holds a weapon in their hand, that doesn't mean I think that no one else should be allowed to have that mechanic in their game.

I brought up the source material because emulating something in fantasy fiction is a valid thing to want to do. I don't play D&D because I thought the fucking D&D movie or cartoon was any good, I want to play interesting characters.

Here is the thing. You are an idiot. There are plenty of interesting characters that don't exist in fiction. On the other hand, most fiction characters are extremely boring to play in a game, see, Ichigo, Kenpachi. So instead of saying "Wahh, Vancian casting doesn't let me play Ichigo, and Ichigo is the only possible interesting character, therefore vancian casting doesn't let me play interesting characters" you could actually try to come up with an interesting character who is vancian. And you would succeed, just like the thousands of D&D players who have played an interesting caster character in the last 30 years.

Now, you could also just make your interesting character not vancian, but that isn't a good reason to try to eliminate an entire resource mechanic from the game that other people might want to use.

Basically no character anyone would ever want to make requires vancian casting and many characters are harder to make that way because it doesn't allow you to customize your spell lists.

Again, you are completely full of shit. Vancian casting is the most customized list short of writing your own class. Vancian casting, unlike being a Beguiler, allows you to prepare the spells you want to cast and no others. Which is part of the reason that vancian casting allows you make many types of characters better than a specialized system like at will or encounter or build up. Vancian casting is almost always the second best way to model any character, which is precisely why having it included in games is a good thing, it allows you to make characters that the designers didn't make themselves first.

Saying that you could theoretically have both a limited spell list and vancian casting misses the point. Vancian casting in no way makes the game better on its own, so why keep it?

You should keep it because it is good for the game. Primarily just because it allows D&D campaign stories to be in the same general universe as current games of D&D, but also because it provides the largest number of characters for the least amount of designer effort.

You are missing the point. The point is that I agree that Vancian Casting was a bad guy because he killed your parents and raped you. But just because he has a similar name doesn't mean you should blame a resource management system that you don't even understand for what he did to you.

[Drolyt]

snip

What in the heck? You are seriously ignoring what I am actually saying and responding to something else. I could almost accept that it was my fault for presenting my argument poorly, but then you start inserting the completely unrelated discussion about how a fighter should let you play Kenpachi into my points about vancian being a bad system. Maybe I focused too much on bashing vancian instead of explaining why it is bad. Whatever. I'm only going to make one more point. You say vancian is more customizable than a beguiler because you can prepare different spells every day. That is the most bizarre definition of customization I've ever seen. They both have a fixed list, the wizard just can't use all the spells on his list all the time and has a stupid in game requirement for learning new spells. If you want to actually customize you play a sorcerer.

[ishy]

Actually neither really has a fixed list. The beguiler has advanced learning and the wizard can learn any spell in the game (unless you play with rules compendium errata I guess).

[Kaelik]

Maybe I focused too much on bashing vancian instead of explaining why it is bad. Whatever.

No, the problem is you don't know what vancian casting even is. Tell me, which whole chapter is devoted to explaining vancian casting?

You are blaming vancian casting for an endless array of things that are not vancian.

Having all spells on your spell list is not vancian. The Magic Overview section is not Vancian. Vancian is just casting X number of spells per day from the ones you have prepared.

[darkmaster]

You know who I really think of when I hear the word fighter? Ashley Riot from Vagrant story. Yeah, he uses some magic, but he gets all of that from books he reads so that's just magic items giving him some utility abilities and you seriously use your utility spells, almost all of the magic you get, much more than anything else because your attack spells drain your MP in a single casting basically. And then only in big fights most of the time you just use weapon techniques you activate by hitting more. So when you face a boss you buff and debuff, cast analyze to see what it's elemental weaknesses are, and throw down a heal every so often while whaling on it and everything else you just use various weapons. Everything else you just sword.

Yeah he doesn't fly and stuff specifically, but he does mow through actual armies of enemy soldiers in straight combat and go toe to toe with dragons and minotaurs and shit.

So it's a little more magic than- say- the tome fighter, but give it a few utility abilities with a "found a magic book" flavor and several effects that you can add to attacks: like stopping someone from casting for a while, or slowing the opponent ect, and a few defensive abilities and boom bam, you have a class that opens up all kinds of avenues for a guy who is, in and of himself, pretty much a guy who stab things really well.

[Kaelik]

You know who I really think of when I hear the word fighter? Ashley Riot from Vagrant story. Yeah, he uses some magic, but he gets all of that from books he reads so that's just magic items giving him some utility abilities and you seriously use your utility spells, almost all of the magic you get, much more than anything else because your attack spells drain your MP in a single casting basically. And then only in big fights most of the time you just use weapon techniques you activate by hitting more. So when you face a boss you buff and debuff, cast analyze to see what it's elemental weaknesses are, and throw down a heal every so often while whaling on it and everything else you just use various weapons. Everything else you just sword.

Yeah he doesn't fly and stuff specifically, but he does mow through actual armies of enemy soldiers in straight combat and go toe to toe with dragons and minotaurs and shit.

So it's a little more magic than- say- the tome fighter, but give it a few utility abilities with a "found a magic book" flavor and several effects that you can add to attacks: like stopping someone from casting for a while, or slowing the opponent ect, and a few defensive abilities and boom bam, you have a class that opens up all kinds of avenues for a guy who is, in and of himself, pretty much a guy who stab things really well.

Alternatively, play a Cleric.

[darkmaster]

Wouldn't really fit, like at all, because the VPK is kind of like MI6 and Ashley was a killer fir hire before he joined... according to a guy who can fuck with your memories and make you believe what he says. In any case he doesn't get his powers from faith and the power of belief but from actual books he finds on the corpses of monsters and repressed memories as he regains levels he used to have.

Also fuck you.

[Omegonthesane]

You know who I really think of when I hear the word fighter? Ashley Riot from Vagrant story. Yeah, he uses some magic, but he gets all of that from books he reads so that's just magic items giving him some utility abilities and you seriously use your utility spells, almost all of the magic you get, much more than anything else because your attack spells drain your MP in a single casting basically. And then only in big fights most of the time you just use weapon techniques you activate by hitting more. So when you face a boss you buff and debuff, cast analyze to see what it's elemental weaknesses are, and throw down a heal every so often while whaling on it and everything else you just use various weapons. Everything else you just sword.

Yeah he doesn't fly and stuff specifically, but he does mow through actual armies of enemy soldiers in straight combat and go toe to toe with dragons and minotaurs and shit.

So it's a little more magic than- say- the tome fighter, but give it a few utility abilities with a "found a magic book" flavor and several effects that you can add to attacks: like stopping someone from casting for a while, or slowing the opponent ect, and a few defensive abilities and boom bam, you have a class that opens up all kinds of avenues for a guy who is, in and of himself, pretty much a guy who stab things really well.

Alternatively, play a Cleric.

Gonna have to go with Kaelik on this one, assuming you have ways to mitigate medium BaB at levels where that starts to bite. Other than DMM Persist Divine Power, you understand.

Yes, the flavour of a cleric is "gives sexual favours worship and servitude to divine entities or philosophies in return for shinies powers", but flavour is mutable, and the mechanics framework is there already and works already.

[Drolyt]

No, the problem is you don't know what vancian casting even is. Tell me, which whole chapter is devoted to explaining vancian casting?

The magic overview chapter, as you said. And as you said, a portion of it is explaining shit that could, theoretically, apply even without vancian. But a huge chunk of it is explaining how spellcasters recover spells, and even the parts that aren't are written from the vancian baseline. But my main point is how needlessly complicated it is, and vancian is a huge contribution to that.

You are blaming vancian casting for an endless array of things that are not vancian.

So my problems with the D&D magic aren't the fault of vancian, I'm just confused? Alright, explain to me how vancian in any way improves the game.

Having all spells on your spell list is not vancian. The Magic Overview section is not Vancian. Vancian is just casting X number of spells per day from the ones you have prepared.

The magic overview section is totally bound up in vancian bullshit. Regardless, you could have a more limited list for vancian casting and it would still be terrible because there is no advantage to doing it that way and it is needlessly complicated.

[darkmaster]

Not sure I buy the bit about flavor being mutable completely, because people will still say "oh, so it's a cleric" because that's just what people fucking do. Anyway the mechanics are also not there since clerics also get all of the everything ever and Ashley very specifically doesn't, and most of the abilities he does have are explicitly just him being really good with the stabbing instruments and never change.

[shadzar]

Getting rid of the fighter is simple. I will avoid the nonsensical bible talk entirely....

Step one to getting rid of the fighter: Commoners cannot fight, not even to hunt for food to survive.

The world is entirely Magic powered peoples, no weapons even exist.

As long as a tool like Bill-hook exists to farm trees, a flail to thrash wheat, or a knife to skin animals, etc; "fighters" will always exist.

I lost that economy thread, but researching deeper into farm implements, those "weapons" were all a means to get food with and blacksmiths would make them: bill-hook, flail, spears, knives, etc. So you would have no need for a blacksmith also, and since metal working is lost, there too goes nails, precious metals, etc.

the "fighter" is the entry level being. to rid of it, you have to have a world where those first stone implements were never needed to hunt for food, or even the need to hunt for food. a world where somehow they never needed those skilsl to survive, but then you can easily imagine that world might not yet be at a point to have adventures as fighting itself wouldnt exist?

[Kaelik]

Not sure I buy the bit about flavor being mutable completely, because people will still say "oh, so it's a cleric" because that's just what people fucking do. Anyway the mechanics are also not there since clerics also get all of the everything ever and Ashley very specifically doesn't, and most of the abilities he does have are explicitly just him being really good with the stabbing instruments and never change.

So spend most of your spells on DMM Persist. Also probably better as a DMM Persist Archivist. I'm just saying that your description of someone who casts buffs, punches people in the face, and casts a set of utility spells including some divinations is basically a cleric. And you can make him a cause Cleric of knowledge or reading or asskickery or himself if you want.

But someone who comes up with spells from books to cast buffs on themselves in combat sounds like certainly not a fighter.

Alright, explain to me how vancian in any way improves the game.

1) As I previously said, it is a resource management system that provides options for PCs. It improves the game in the same way that all resource management systems do, which is allow players to play characters.

2) In specific, vancian serves to allow players to approximately model characters that were not explicitly designed into the system.

3) Vancian is not complicated you dumbshit. Any daily casting of any kind that doesn't allow fungibility of slots is vancian, the fucking Half Celestial template is vancian, and that sure isn't complex.

[darkmaster]

Not sure I buy the bit about flavor being mutable completely, because people will still say "oh, so it's a cleric" because that's just what people fucking do. Anyway the mechanics are also not there since clerics also get all of the everything ever and Ashley very specifically doesn't, and most of the abilities he does have are explicitly just him being really good with the stabbing instruments and never change.

So spend most of your spells on DMM Persist. Also probably better as a DMM Persist Archivist. I'm just saying that your description of someone who casts buffs, punches people in the face, and casts a set of utility spells including some divinations is basically a cleric. And you can make him a cause Cleric of knowledge or reading or asskickery or himself if you want.

But someone who comes up with spells from books to cast buffs on themselves in combat sounds like certainly not a fighter.

No, you fucking idiot, when you make the cleric a melee powerhouse with almost no magical ability and various abilities tied to martial techniques and make it so it absolutely can't change it's abilities except at level up and then only to add more. It is no longer the cleric. And if you disagree that stripping out what makes a class that class and putting other things in instead I'd like to point you to the Tome Wizard Revamp.

I know it looks like a barbarian, but really, it's the wizard, it can use anti-magic field see?