WotC Death and Dying article

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WotC Death and Dying article

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... br][br][br]
WotC wrote:Death and Dying
or “How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Negative Hit Points”
by Andy Collins

Welcome to Design & Development, your primary source of D&D 4th Edition insights and revelations! While you're here, keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to dndinsider@wizards.com.


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Character death is one of the ultimate threats in any RPG, and D&D is no exception. Besides the obvious, um, “inconveniences” that death might cause your character and his allies in both the short and long term—inconveniences which vary based on your level, the current situation, and of course your attachment to that particular character—death is a mark of failure. In some hard-to-explain but very real way, a dead character symbolizes that you just “lost” at D&D. That can prove a bitter pill for many players, and in my experience is even more frustrating than paying for a resurrection.

What We Hated
Early in the design process, Rob, James, and I identified a number of ways that we were unsatisified with D&D’s current death and dying rules. For example, we strongly disliked the inability of 3rd Edition D&D’s negative-hit-point model to deal with combat at higher levels—once the monsters are reliably dealing 15 or 20 points of damage with each attack, the chance of a character going straight from “alive and kicking” to “time to go through his pockets for loose change” was exceedingly high; effectively, the -1 to -9 “dying” range was meaningless. Ask any high-level fighter whether he’d prefer the second-to-last attack from a monster to leave him at 1 hp or -1 hp; I’d put odds on unconsciousness, and how lame is that?

Among other problems, this also meant that characters effectively had no way to “lose” a combat except by being killed. This removes a lot of dramatic possibilities for the story—for instance, the classic scene of the characters being captured and thrown in a cell from which they have to escape using only their wits and a pack of chewing gum (or whatever).

On top of all that, the game added a complex state of being at exactly 0 hp, which wasn’t quite like being fully capable but also wasn’t quite dying. Honestly, though, how often does any character actually get reduced to exactly 0 hp? Why did the game need a condition that existed at exactly one spot on the big, broad range of hit point possibilities?

What We Wanted
We wanted a death and dying system that added fun and tension at the table, scaled well to any level of play, and created the threat of PC mortality (without delivering on that threat as often as 3rd Edition did).

Characters had to feel that death was a possibility in order for combat to feel meaningful. If it seems impossible to be killed, much of the tension of combat disappears. However, if the majority of combats result in death (as is the case for a lot of high-level play in previous editions), the game is forced to reclassify death as a trivial obstacle in order to remain playable. 3rd Edition accomplished this with popular spells such as close wounds, delay death, and revivify—mandatory staples of any high-level cleric’s arsenal due purely to the commonality of death. But that removes the tension, and now what’s the point of death at all?

The system also had to be simple to remember and adjudicate at the table. Being able to keep the rule in your head is important, because you don’t want to be bogging the game down flipping through a book when a character is clinging to life by a thread—that should be high-tension time, not slowdown time!

Finally, it had to be believable within the heroic-fantasy milieu of D&D. (Believability isn’t the same thing as realism—an error which has ruined more games than I can count.) Put another way, it had to feel like D&D—one of those tricky “you know it when you see it” things.

What We Did About It
Back in 2005, this was obviously a much lower priority than, say, creating the new model for how classes and races worked, so we put it on the back burner to simmer. As the months passed, we and other designers proposed various models that tried to solve the conundrums set out above, varying from exceedingly abstract to witheringly simulationist. We playtested every model, from death tracks to life points, each time learning something different about what worked or didn’t work. A few times, we even temporarily settled on a solution, claiming that the playtesters only needed time to get used to our radical new ideas.

Side note to all those would-be game designers out there: When you hear yourself making that claim, you might be in danger of losing touch with reality. Sometimes you’re right, and your innovative game design concept just needs a little time to sink in. (The cycling initiative system used by 3rd Edition D&D is a good example of that—back in 1999, some very vociferous playtesters were convinced that it would ruin D&D combat forever. Turned out that wasn’t exactly true.) But every time you convince yourself that you know better than the people playing your game, you’re opening the possibility of a very rude (and costly) awakening.

Thankfully, our awakening came well before we released the game (or even before widescale playtesting began, for that matter). Despite some quite elegant concepts, none of our radical new ideas met all the criteria necessary, including simplicity, playability, fun, and believability.

The system had to be at least as simple to remember and at least as easy to play as what already existed. For all their other flaws, negative hit points are pretty easy to use, and they work well with the existing hit-point system.

It had to be at least as much fun as what already existed, and it had to be at least as believable as what already existed. In ideal situations, negative hit points create fun tension at the table, and they’re reasonably believable, at least within the heroic fantasy milieu of D&D, where characters are supposed to get the stuffing beaten out of them on a regular basis without serious consequences.

Every one of our new ideas failed to meet at least one of those criteria. Maybe they were playable but too abstract to feel fun or believable, or they were believable but too complicated to remember. Nothing worked, and I admit we experienced a couple of freak-out moments behind closed doors.

The Breakthrough
Eventually we got it through our heads that there wasn’t a radical new game mechanic just waiting to be discovered that would revolutionize the narrow window between life and death in D&D. What we really needed to do was just widen the window, reframe it, and maybe put in an extra pane for insulation. (OK, that analogy went off the tracks, but its heart was in the right place.)

Characters still use a negative hit point threshold to determine when they move from “unconscious and dying” to “all-the-way-dead,” but now that threshold scales with their level (or more specifically, with their hit point total). A character with 30 hit points (such as a low-level cleric) dies when he reaches -15 hit points, while the 15th-level fighter with 120 hp isn’t killed until he’s reduced to -60 hit points.

That may seem like an unreachable number, but it’s important to remember that monsters, like characters, aren’t piling on as many attacks on their turn as in 3rd Edition. At 15th level, that fighter might face a tough brute capable of dishing out 25 or 30 points of damage with its best attack… or nearly twice that on a crit. The threat of “alive-to-negative-everything” on a single hit remains in play, but it’s much less common than in the previous edition. That puts that bit of tension back where it belongs.

The new system also retains the “unconscious character bleeding out” concept, but for obvious reasons speeds it along a bit. (There’s not really any tension watching that 15th-level fighter bleed out at a rate of 1 hp per round for 30 or 40 rounds.) Thanks to some clever abstractions, the new system also removes the predictability of the current death timer. (“OK, Regdar’s at -2 hp, so we have 8 rounds to get to him. Yawn… time for a nap.”)

It’s also less costly to bring dying characters back into the fight now—there’s no “negative hit point tax” that you have to pay out of the healing delivered by your cure serious wounds prayer. That helps ensure that a character who was healed from unconsciousness isn’t in an immediate threat of going right back there (and you’ll never again have the “I fed Jozan a potion of healing but he’s still at negative hit points” disappointment).

Monsters don’t need or use this system unless the DM has special reason to do so. A monster at 0 hp is dead, and you don’t have to worry about wandering around the battlefield stabbing all your unconscious foes. (I’m sure my table isn’t the only place that happens.) We’ve talked elsewhere about some of the bogus parallelism that can lead to bad game design—such as all monsters having to follow character creation rules, even though they’re supposed to be foes to kill, not player characters—this is just another example of the game escaping that trap. Sure, a DM can decide for dramatic reasons that a notable NPC or monster might linger on after being defeated. Maybe a dying enemy survives to deliver a final warning or curse before expiring, or at the end of a fight the PCs discover a bloody trail leading away from where the evil warlock fell, but those will be significant, story-based exceptions to the norm.

Oh, and speaking of zero hit points? You’re unconscious and dying, just like every new player expects it should be. It’s not as harsh as the “dead at 0 hp” rule of the original D&D game, but it’s still not a place you want to be for long!

Try It Now!
If you want to try out a version of this system in your current game, try the following house rule. It’s not quite the 4th Edition system, but it should give you an idea of how it’ll feel.

1) At 0 hp or less, you fall unconscious and are dying.
Any damage dealt to a dying character is applied normally, and might kill him if it reduces his hit points far enough (see #2).

2) Characters die when their negative hit point total reaches -10 or one-quarter of their full normal hit points, whichever is a larger value.
This is less than a 4th Edition character would have, but each monster attack is dealing a smaller fraction of the character’s total hit points, so it should be reasonable. If it feels too small, increase it to one-third full normal hit points and try again.

3) If you’re dying at the end of your turn, roll 1d20.
Lower than 10: You get worse. If you get this result three times before you are healed or stabilized (as per the Heal skill), you die.
10-19: No change.
20: You get better! You wake up with hit points equal to one-quarter your full normal hit points.

4) If a character with negative hit points receives healing, he returns to 0 hp before any healing is applied.
In other words, he’ll wake up again with hit points equal to the healing provided by the effect—a cure light wounds spell for 7 hp will bring any dying character back to 7 hp, no matter what his negative hit point total had reached.)

5) A dying character who’s been stabilized (via the Heal skill) doesn’t roll a d20 at the end of his turn unless he takes more damage.



About the Author

Andy Collins works as the system design and development manager for D&D at Wizards of the Coast. His development credits include the Player's Handbook v.3.5, Races of Eberron, and Dungeon Master's Guide II. He is also one of the lead designers for 4th Edition D&D, along with Rob Heinsoo and James Wyatt.


Expanding the negative hp threshold was "The Breakthrough?" Lots of groups had that houserule years ago.

The most interesting part of the article to me is the fact that any healing at all pushes you out of negative hp's and into positive hp. That is huge. At higher levels, a healing character who has a persistent area healing effect basically means that his party is unkillable through hp damage. Everybody falls down and gets up every round. Wow.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Voss »

Any PC falls down and gets up. Repeatedly. I wondered why that was going on in some of the playtest reports. The expansion also gets fairly absurd. I can make a reasonable case that a 25th level fighter will have around 250 hps. That means his negative hit point threshold is seriously -125. If he rolls 1-9 three times, he dies. If he rolls a 20 on any of the 5 or so rolls that averages suggest he needs to die, he magically heals, and is now conscious and has 67 hit points. It comes across as nothing short of fucking ridiculous.


Monsters and NPCs, on the other hand, die at 0. So no capturing, questioning, converting or trying to get information from defeated enemies. They just die as soon as they drop. Or they're special cases, in which case the game just hangs a giant neon sign over their head, saying 'plot critical NPC'.

It combines with the stupid shit about monsters not getting as much of a benefit from critical hits and the bizarre crap with npcs and magic items to form a weird ass metagame picture. From what I can tell, 4e is set up like the world of 'Order of the Stick' the characters will wander around actively trying to take advantage of the metagame and the game rules.

The ENworld discussion is here, and fairly stupid
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=218339

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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by virgil »

DoTs are a big thing, so people are going to be burning, suddenly spring up from healing or stabilization, get slapped with a number of auras/poisons/etc and fall down again. This will make the players that get knocked down acting like a yo-yo.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Voss »

Already done. One of the wizard monkeys mentions a playtest over at whiny world.
This actually happened in one of Chris Perkins' games. The party was trapped in a room, snakes and nagas and poison everywhere, oh my! Everyone was down to single digit hit points and taking ongoing damage. My warlord's turn came up, she took damage and fell over...and I rolled a 20 on the saving throw. That was just enough to stand rearguard as the rest of the party got the doors open and escaped. If I hadn't rolled that 20, the others wouldn't have been able to work on the door and I'm fairly sure we would have had more than one casualty. So yeah, it was wicked cool gnarly.
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Hurrah for random die rolls making or breaking an encounter. Thats so cool! Much better than good ideas or character abilities saving the party. Its also worth noting that her character probably had more hit points after the poison knocked her out and she recovered than before.

The whole thing fails the believability test he mentions in the article so badly that its actually making me a little sad. You can apparently sit next to another PC and stab him repeatedly with a dagger once he's unconscious and it doesn't matter. He will only die if the dice say so. And I don't mean that in a general 'random dice rolling is part of the game' sort of way. I mean, a 30 hit point fighter goes down at -1 hit points. You can stab him 3 times with a dagger (d4 damage) and at worst he'll be at -13. And it won't affect his status or recovery in any way at all. If he rolls a 20, he's back up at 7 hit points, regardless, and any healing puts him at 0+<amount of healing>, regardless of the fact that you've been stabbing him.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by RandomCasualty »

Wow this was so bad it's comical. Roll a d20 for your dying check and get a natural 20. You instantly get up and get 1/4 of your hp back. What the fuck were they thinking? What's funny is that if you get someone to perform first aid on you, there's no longer a chance that you pop up like this, but if you're bleeding, then you have a 1 in 20 chance of miraculously popping up and stabilizing for no reason and rejoining the fight. Are the designers on crack? I mean seriously?! Who thought of this rule... It's the dumbest thing I've ever thought of.

And the healing thing is stupid. We should get away from Final Fantasy phoenix down tossing. I don't want PCs popping up and down like a jack in the box.

Whats funny is that there's zero chance you just stabilize. Unless you're healed, you either get up or you die. That's just... sad.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

The 4e process is starkly evident.

1) A complaint is made.
2) The first solution proposed is adopted, without testing, editing, or quality control of any kind, including basic reasoning skills and plausibility.
3) Repeat as necessary.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

You know, if Frank gets a system together at all, it's starting to look like he'll beat 4E by default.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by JonSetanta »

What the fuck? Have they been reading the joke Koumei and I have going on recently about 'walking corpses'?
That would be both petty and scary if 4e designers skimmed non-WOTC forums for ideas.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Koumei »

It reminded me of Final Fantasy very quickly, too. Along with the very annoying "KO! Phoenix Down! KO! Phoenix Down!" loop. Never resurrect in battle, because your healer just wastes time playing yo-yo with the monsters.

Granted, that's not the most stupid part about this. It's sort of hard to find exactly what is, really.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by JonSetanta »

Finding the origin of stupid in the D&D system is like finding the beginning of a Moebius Strip of Stupidity.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by SunTzuWarmaster »

Wow. So, um, player characters, um, can't die? I hate to say this, but I'm disappointed. Negative hit points added some dramatic flair, but a 5% chance that you miraculously spring back to life?

45% chance to "get worse" and if you "get worse" 3 times then you die? WTF? People had a better chance at living with negative hit points.

New spell:
Mass Aid - everyone gains 1 hp. This revives ALL dead party members to fighting status for 1 round. RETARDED.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Talisman »

Good Lord...

  • Increasing the number of negative hp was "the breakthrough"
  • NPCs die at 0 hp unless they have "Plot Device" stamped on their foreheads
  • 3-strikes-and-you're-out vs. yo-yo-healing
  • Negative hp have NO impact on healing


It's like a parade of Stupid, with big Stupid Balloons and Stupid Floats made from Stupid Flowers...I half-expect to hear Weird Al Yankovic singing "Dare to be Stupid," except that he has far too much class for this crowd...

I've always used the "dead at 0 hp" rule...for nameless, faceless MOOKS! Even then, if the PCs try to find a wounded guy to revive, they probably can (good ol' percentile dice).

I'd like to change the negative damage threshold to [Con score + BAB], since warrior-types should, logically, be able to endure more physical punishment than scrawny mages.

I'd also say that at <1 hp, your character has to make some save (Fort, perhaps) or fall unconscious. If you succeed, you're effectively slowed (one action per round), loses 1dX hp per round (maybe d6 or d8), and have to make that save again every round.

If you fail, you're unconscious, lose 1dX hp per round, and get to make the save every round to stabilize. This would allow for heroes who fight on in the face of horrific injuries.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by JonSetanta »

Actually, at this point I'd rather go with the corpse-joke as an actual rule.
You drop to 0 HP, you become 'an object' with hardness but retain your mobility; healing restores you to being a character again, but it would be good to also use some sort of 'wounded' condition.
You can only make move actions. You are immune to crits but if reduced again to 0 HP (from whatever amount based on your size + level) then your body is trashed and you die. And so on.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Crissa »

Didn't anyone notice that their point rule 'you die at negative one quarter your total hitpoints' and the examples, which are all 'you die at negative one half your total hitpoints'?

I know I'm really tired, but that seems off to me...

Also, if you scale your margin by total hitpoints (a good idea), why isn't the recovery roll also scaled?

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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Talisman »

The 1/4 hp thing is if you want to "4e-ize" your soon-to-be-outdated 3.5 games. The 1/2 hp thing is the official 4e method. Presumably, this is because 4e characters have more hp (and deal more damage) that their 3.5 counterparts.

As a friend of mine puts it, [sarcasm]"that's because bigger numbers are more fun!" [/sarcasm]
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Koumei »

Ignoring the rest of the problems, I wouldn't make it "three fails and you die." I'd make it "each fail deals you a random-yet-scaling amount of damage." As an example, 1d8 damage, plus 2 per level. You have randomness, if very little, and you also have scaling. Or if you love dice, 1d6 per level and really hope for the best.

And yes, we all love high numbers. I mean, who doesn't want to hit people and proudly proclaim "Yeah! Ten million damage!" or write "HP: 9999" on their character sheet? Oh, and don't forget having a caster level of... OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Just in case, with my preference for high *level*, I had people confused there.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by RandomCasualty »

The 3 strikes and your out dying rule I can live wtih. The stupid thing where you randomly pop up on a 20 is dumb, especially since you can only do it when you're dying, but not when you're stable. So if you're doing bad in a fight, you're better off letting your allies drain down to dying.

You're also better off to hold the heal checks until after your PCs fail 2 rolls. Since there's a chance they may just get free healing by popping up.

Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1202185219[/unixtime]]Presumably, this is because 4e characters have more hp (and deal more damage) that their 3.5 counterparts.


Based on what we've seen form the pit fiend, 4E monsters really don't deal that much damage.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Yahzi »

Why do NPCs die at 0 hps? Why don't they die when the Player Characters look at them real mean-like?

And miraculously popping up with 25% hps is just boring. Players who roll a 20 on their recovery should come back with 200% hps!

/stupid off

Sorry... that article was so stupid it infected me.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Aycarus »

IMHO, I pretty much agree with RC. I think it's "beneficial enough" if characters simply stabilize on a roll of a 20 (this is more of a believability thing). Of course, then you still get the "wait until he fails two rolls" problem.

Some more points:

  • 1/4 is a lot more reasonable than 1/2.
  • From this article, I'm willing to bet there's no such thing as mass cure light wounds. If there is, I have greatly underestimated their stupidity.
  • On that note, magical healing is applied from zero? That seems unnecessary. I think it's pretty much an attempt to ensure that players experience minimal downtime in the game -- I suspect this "design goal" will likely appear elsewhere when 4e is finalized.
  • Heal checks in 4e still suck.


The Article wrote:Monsters don’t need or use this system unless the DM has special reason to do so.


I think this can be interpreted as "monsters will die unless otherwise tended to," which is pretty much how 3.5e works... so I have no complaints about it.

Koumei wrote:Ignoring the rest of the problems, I wouldn't make it "three fails and you die." I'd make it "each fail deals you a random-yet-scaling amount of damage." As an example, 1d8 damage, plus 2 per level. You have randomness, if very little, and you also have scaling. Or if you love dice, 1d6 per level and really hope for the best.


That's probably a bit complicated... I think they were aiming for sufficient simplicity not to slow the game down with excessive dice rolling.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Voss »

Actually monsters go through staggered/dying/dead at 0/-1 to -9/ -10 just like PCs in 3.5
Some people apparently ignore it out of convenience, but that isn't how it works.

Anyway, Mearls adds some more fail, on an unrelated subject.
It's a unique ability for that bugbear. It isn't part of the core grapple rules for a couple reasons. The big one is that it would be really annoying if the PCs (or a big monster) could do that in every fight.

It's tempting to make it a core rule, or put that rule into grapple, but here's why we didn't.

One of the aims of 4e was to make the rules that everyone needs to know as small as possible. The game becomes complicated very quickly, as you add in powers and rules to cover all the corner cases, so it's important to reign that stuff in. Otherwise, you end up with a bloated mess.

So, things like the human shield maneuver are there for specific monsters. I imagine that when we do unarmed combat maneuvers, you'll find something similar. I also believe that the rogue has some abilities to trick enemies into missing the rogue and hitting one of the monster's allies.

Now, rules bloat is a bad thing, but it also lets you do more stuff simply by mapping out more ground. The aim with the DMG is to give enough of a framework that a DM can easily adjudicate stuff on the fly in response to crazy ideas that the players come up with.
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thread, here-
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... [br]Thread Summary- Rules bloat, yay! Each monster has its own small pile of exclusive special rules, and somehow thats back to basics. Because corner cases aren't a problem if each corner case is confined to a handful of monsters.

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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

Watch them write Polymorph in a way that gives you access to each of those unique monster abilities.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Voss »

Oh, thats a happy thought. Probably true, too, once they finally get around to putting one of the iconic D&D spells back in the game.

But until then, bugbears (and only a specific type of bugbear) are the only beings in the world that can pick someone up and use them as a meat shield.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Leress »

What??? That just makes no damn sense. Simplify the game by "adding" more rules, but not just broad rules but special case ones. Even though these types of rules will increase with each new monster manual.
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by virgil »

They already do that to a point in 3E. Notice how many new monsters each have a relatively unique ability, especially by MMV? Their idea now seems to be not neccessarily simplicity, but avoidance of cross-referencing, which this does.

This is kind of odd, because it was Mearls's IH system where he actually made villain classes, where you had a basic chassis arranged by CR, choosing from a list of abilities. It's literally the exact opposite of 4E's monster design.

It's equally odd because from that quote, it's sounding like you're going to be set to rails as to what you can do. If it's not written down on your class/feat as a special ability, then you cannot do it; VERY unlike the stunt system in Iron Heroes.
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Absentminded_Wizard
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Re: WotC Death and Dying article

Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

About the only saving grace of this system is that it's not too hard to fix.

Houserule #1: A 20 on the saving throw for dying characters stabilizes them, rather than allowing them to spring back up.

Houserule #2: Monsters who are reduced to 0 or fewer HP are dying just like player characters, but they have no chance of stabilizing and will die eventually without outside intervention. If the PCs want to heal a fallen monster for interrogation, roll a d20. On a roll of 10 + (number of rounds monster has been dying) or higher, the monster is still alive.

Okay, #2 could probably use some modification, since I'm trying to make up something simple off the top of my head, but you get the idea.

Of course, we also have to consider the possibility that the final 4e system might be somewhat better than this. After all, this 3.x conversion is probably something AC pulled out of his ass while writing this column without checking too much for consistency, proportionality, or bad wording.
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