The Shadowrun Situation

[Stahlseele]

which, to be honest, is so totally what many would do if they thought they could pull it off and get away with it . .
but it's still bad for a game.

[Ancient History]

Roleplayers are not, as a group, the single most discerning group of purchasers in the world. Anyone who has been paying the slightest attention to Shadowrun for the last couple of years should have known going in that SR5 was going to be a step back on pretty much every level - and it still sold out at Origins. As shitty and unworkable and nonsensical as SR5 may be, it's probably going to be commercially successful because the inner magpies are going to yell "Shiny!"

[sabs]

I've given up on shadowrun until such time as someone else gets the license.
It makes me sad, because I love the world concept.. but I'm having to basically rebuild the entire world for it to make sense to me, and to excise out the crap catalyst has put in. If I can find people to play it with, I'll just run my own own version using some of the 4th edition books for rules, and I still have to figure out how I'm going to deal with the matrix.

[Smirnoffico]

Roleplayers are not, as a group, the single most discerning group of purchasers in the world. Anyone who has been paying the slightest attention to Shadowrun for the last couple of years should have known going in that SR5 was going to be a step back on pretty much every level - and it still sold out at Origins. As shitty and unworkable and nonsensical as SR5 may be, it's probably going to be commercially successful because the inner magpies are going to yell "Shiny!"

This may mostly be due to ignorance, not bad taste. For example, I've been playing Shadowrun since around 2010. I've got some books, I've read Ancient Files (and liked it a lot), but only in 2012 I stumbled upon by then closed threads about the whole Colemangate. Be that time I've already got a copy of Almanac aтв as I never read Shadows of north America before, I had no idea that, for example, CAS chapter was complete nonsense. After reading the whole story I paid more attention, but there are quite a lot of people who know nothing about the whole story and know little about the game, so they can't compare. If all these table-top/card/computer games become popular, there will be a lot of gamers coming to Shadowrun who haven't read even a 4th edition rulebook. They'll take 5th as a standard.

But, I've been looking for some pirates who would have scanned Origins book (in order to denounce them, of course, not indulge myself in these kinds of activities), and found none. This can be some sign that people who actually read the book don't want to bother scanning it.

[nikita]

In my view the current CGL mantra is based on touting following:
1) Gamers are buying eagerly from them in conventions and in larger numbers. This is basicly what they are telling now whenever talk is about sales.
2) There is money to be made in selling nostalgia (such as 2050 setting in Shadowrun which in my limited knowledge actually sold well).

I believe that they are now moving towards "event" based selling:
a) They know people have waited for Star League book to BT for a long time so putting it out was fan wish fulfillment. However, notice that the logical continuing: Mech material set in era has been sorely lacking due art problems (which in my mind are probably closer to niggard attitude to anything requiring budget).
b) Since 2050 sold well, they intend to cash in it (and free publicity of games) and thus tout new edition and supplements as quickly as possible.
c) Another trend is the extension towards new players: Alpha Strike and Shadowrun card games and like. However, their previous ventures in expanding game lines have not been successes.

So far it might look fine and dandy. However, I do not believe that all is well in house of CGL. Following observations come from BT side but I think they also apply to Shadowrun:

First, more and more fans are getting angry at angry developers and assistants. There is more talk about making fans being guilty for not understanding the setting/material/great metaplot and/or not promoting the game. In my view this comes from frustration that setting does not sell as well as hoped for.

Second, someone said:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.p ... 794.0.html
""Not far from the truth, actually. CGL has two FT employees dedicated to the BattleTech line: Herb and Ray. The rest of us are freelance contractors. There's no main office; it's pretty much virtual. Budgets for every project are exceptionally tight. I know a few of us end up doing some material (BY CHOICE) pro bono (I'm working on one now, actually) just to help keep some books from blowing budgets and tanking profitability.""

Which means that there are products that are developed essentially without full labour cost. In my view it implies that many BT products are in fact loss making ventures.

Third, I also believe that many in fan base is losing the trust on company's employees due rather flippant attitude of line developers, moderators and assistant writers and generally poor corporate communications. I believe that game ecosystem is toxic. Currently they have stopped the monthly battlechats. In my view that is due fact that someone openly challenged devs there (but it was long overdue due horrible way Herbert Beas discussed there and generally low signal to noise ratio).

Fourth, the business does rely on hype for making everyone excited and rallying fan base. However, I cannot see that happening when amount of information is lower. I also attribute all this directly to loss of trust among buying public.

Finally: If you look at different kinds of trends in web searches the BattleTech is currently trending all time low. Shadowrun is also quite low but higher than all time low. However, I strongly suspect that it is due computer games being developed.

I wrote this because I do not believe that problems in Shadowrun are the only issue facing CGL. In my view it is a company wide issue and BT will probably fall faster than Shadowrun...

[Stahlseele]

*nods*
even some of my buddies who consider themselves lifeliners for battletech have jumped ship by now because of dropping quality of content etc.

[Smirnoffico]

Looks like true story. I have very limited industry experience (I worked in video game design and it was ten years ago), but I've got an impression that Shadowrun team desperately needs actual game designers, not only freelancers, be they good or bad.

[name_here]

How does hacking work in ghost in the shell, 'cause you can do things like turn yourself invisible, triangulate coordinates with satellites, blind a dude, or make a gunner think you shot him when you're actually moving behind him.

That's because everyone is almost always online in GitS, I think. So is SR5 GitS style hacking?

GitS features "no cyberbrain == no hacking", but shutting off internet access has stopped hacking about zero times. Hackers in that setting are allowed to define their Xanatos gambits post hoc, so there's essentially no way you can keep any device from being hacked.

Hackers in GitS can cause your machines to explode while they are locked in a faraday cage in an undisclosed location. Sometimes they bother to explain that they left virus bombs in your system weeks or months in advance, and sometimes they don't bother and just fucking do it because fuck you.

-Username17

GitS actually does let people prevent hacking by shutting off their external connections, which is how Section 9 got their asses kicked by the special forces guys.

[Juton]

GitS actually does let people prevent hacking by shutting off their external connections, which is how Section 9 got their asses kicked by the special forces guys.

In the GitS:SAC dub they call it going into 'autistic mode'. They don't do it all that often but it does come up. For instance in the 2nd? episode they aren't able to hack the spider tank going on a rampage so they try a series of physical countermeasures to stop it before it reaches its goal.

[Fucks]

With people like him in charge I can't imagine how dumpshock became a place full of idiots who like to talk about rape way too much.

he's no mod or admin at dumpshock anymore.

[Fucks]

Bull at dumpshock.com:

*IF* social situations or driving tests regularly took 25-50% of actual gameplay time, I would agree. But they do not. Even an intense social scene is mostly roleplaying and any character can participate in those regardless of his skills or attributes or cyebrware, because it's pure roleplaying. Stuff that requires dice, etiquette tests and negotiation? Those are done in a minute or two. And with the exception of the occasional chase test or possibly a rare dogfight/vehicle combat scene, you're not going to be in a van or vehicle for all that long. And if this sort of thing is occurring o a regular basis you may want to talk to the GM about gameplay expectations.

The point you are ignoring is that combat scenes crop up in almost every game session for almost every game. There are exceptions, the "professionals who never get seen" type of groups, but they're fairly rare. As a player, a GM, a writer, and a developer, I expect at least one combat scene per game session. And I expect that at least 1 hour in a 4 hour game session will end up being dedicated to combat. Simply because even trying to streamline and speed up combat, it still takes a while to run, because it's very dice, action, and strategically intensive.

All that matters is combat?

[sabs]

That's the d&d mantra.

[Ancient History]

Battletech was taking in less money than SR despite releasing more products back when I was a freelancer. No surprise there.

Again, it should be emphasized that Bull is very focused on Shadowrun Missions - and that's just not your normal consumer group, and it's such an inbred product that you can pretty much outline the box they're thinking in. It's not a place where innovation is welcomed or wanted. In Missions, you really do spend more time on combat than any other single aspect of a run.

[vagrant]

Yeah, Bull's comment really struck home a major design difference between myself and his crowd. (Not that I'm a designer, I mean more what I expect out of the game.)

In the SR games I've GMed and am GMing, combat does occur pretty frequently, but not moreso than social scenes (and wtf, since when is a face's job pure MTP? Isn't that why we have social skills and rules for social interactions?) Combat is definitely a smaller portion than legwork and recon, to be sure.

I think that's a major part of why I dislike SR5 - it does feel geared to a different playstyle than I run.

[Otakusensei]

So I read Hardy's blog post about wireless rules, and it hits home because I'm working on a matrix rewrite myself. I just can't get over how pants-on-head retarded his "solution" is. To solve a complex issue that is causing one character type to be ineffective he's opted to create essentially two mechanical systems for the game. Two sets of stats for all gear that he expects to be balanced and measured? Do they seriously have no one there who has ever made or played a game?

I love how all the initial responses to the idea in that blog post are negative or skeptical. How could they not when the example includes the relatively harmless chemical seal. You know, that bit of specialized equipment that means the difference between a party wipe in an enclosed space and a momentary annoyance. Does he seriously expect that anyone would be stupid enough to let someone open it secretly at a distance just for the benefit of making it twice as fast to close? This is the very image of a bad idea that should have been mentioned in passing and thrown out just as fast. I'm glad they are thinking out of the box, so to speak, but this decision makes me wonder if they even know where the box is.

[Dragon Instincts]

Even an intense social scene is mostly roleplaying and any character can participate in those regardless of his skills or attributes or cyebrware, because it's pure roleplaying.

In the SR games I've GMed and am GMing, combat does occur pretty frequently, but not moreso than social scenes (and wtf, since when is a face's job pure MTP? Isn't that why we have social skills and rules for social interactions?) Combat is definitely a smaller portion than legwork and recon, to be sure.

A face's job is pure MTP when the GM doesn't get what playing elite shadowrunners is all about: playing experts with awesome skills in their field.

This is an old problem with faces, as they are the sole class where you as the player are expected to possess the skills of your character. Nobody expects you to be a hacker. You state that you wanna hack something and roll the dice. Same goes for shootouts. You just roll for the attack, even if you personally don't know how to hold a gun.
The face however excels in "social combat" and since dialog scenes are mostly roleplayed, you're doing the whole thing yourself.

If the player is a Shyguy and just doesn't know what to do when his character flirts with a NPC, why not let him roll the dice and see if the character will know what to say? Like: "Three net hits, you flirt a bit around and manage to get the clue out of her."
I mean, nobody can roleplay a pornomancer. You just cannot play a guy with CHA 9 and maxed social skills. The same goes for the other way round, as a CHA 1 character with no social skills at all will fail at social encounters, no matter how you might be able to pull off the scene yourself.

Note, I'm all for roleplaying social encounters. But if in doubt, roll the dice and let the GM tell you if your character did it better or maybe worse than you just did.

[vagrant]

Isn't that exactly the point of having social stats in the first place? If ShyGuy can't string two words together in public and yet for some reason wants to play out the fantasy of being an uber-suave James Bond expy, he can roll dice for the pleasure, just like I have no hand-eye coordination skills at all, but I play out the fantasy of shooting shit really well when I run a sam.

[kzt]

If the player is a Shyguy and just doesn't know what to do when his character flirts with a NPC, why not let him roll the dice and see if the character will know what to say? Like: "Three net hits, you flirt a bit around and manage to get the clue out of her."

Yeah, this is stupid and has been for years. The counter is offer to run and then do things like asking the sniper to to calculate their windage and holdover in real time. Which is being an ass, but hey...

[phlapjackage]

This is an old problem with faces, as they are the sole class where you as the player are expected to possess the skills of your character. Nobody expects you to be a hacker. You state that you wanna hack something and roll the dice. Same goes for shootouts. You just roll for the attack, even if you personally don't know how to hold a gun.
The face however excels in "social combat" and since dialog scenes are mostly roleplayed, you're doing the whole thing yourself.

I think the big difference is what level of roleplaying you want in your game. You could have the level of immersion from that Mearls clusterfail video, where the social interaction is reduced to "okay, roll your Charisma to get the infodump". I don't consider that roleplaying. It's more of a GM wankfest with the players reduced to random number generators for the GM.

My feeling is that a certain level of actual roleplaying needs to be involved in any use of a skill. A player with a social character doesn't have to actually be good at schmoozing, but the player at least needs to have good ideas, like saying that they will flirt with the corp. secretary so they can get info, or having the idea to pose as a computer repair tech to be able to get access to secure systems. If the player can come up with some really good dialog too, well that's just lagniappe.

Same thing goes for other skills though. Being in a shootout and just saying "I roll to shoot him" isn't good enough. The player doesn't need to know about windage and holdover (?), but they should have general ideas like taking cover behind those boxes over there, or shooting for effect to cover the movements of the close-combat guy, etc.

[Neurosis]

Steven Ratkovich. Very old-school Shadowrun fan, since the beginning. When I was freelancing he was mainly doing Missions, and we were on good terms - Bulldrek, Dumpshock, all of that. However, at a fundamental level we have some disagreements about how (or if) Shadowrun should progress, and we basically stopped being friendly when I left. Bull disliked the transhumanist direction of SR4; he's probably the strongest pink mohawk type in the current Catalyst crop, and it seems like one of the major reasons various bits are being pushed back in SR5. He tends to be conservative in his mechanics and gameplay as much as his setting material - Missions under his aegis is famously non-permissive of any character options, including a lot of stuff that was in the main game books and supplements, nominally out of a concern for "balance" but mostly because he doesn't want (or know how) to game when somebody brings a possession tradition mage or centaur to the table. Good guy, bad game designer.

Highly accurate summary.

[Neurosis]

How does hacking work in ghost in the shell, 'cause you can do things like turn yourself invisible, triangulate coordinates with satellites, blind a dude, or make a gunner think you shot him when you're actually moving behind him.

That's because everyone is almost always online in GitS, I think. So is SR5 GitS style hacking?

No, much lamer.

Do they seriously have no one there who has ever made or played a game?

Doesn't fucking matter if they do. They could have John Q. Gamedesign-Genius and his brother Iam A. Brilliant-Gamedesigner on the staff, and it wouldn't fucking matter because Hardy gets final cut.

I love how all the initial responses to the idea in that blog post are negative or skeptical. How could they not when the example includes the relatively harmless chemical seal. You know, that bit of specialized equipment that means the difference between a party wipe in an enclosed space and a momentary annoyance. Does he seriously expect that anyone would be stupid enough to let someone open it secretly at a distance just for the benefit of making it twice as fast to close? This is the very image of a bad idea that should have been mentioned in passing and thrown out just as fast. I'm glad they are thinking out of the box, so to speak, but this decision makes me wonder if they even know where the box is.

Dude, look at the timeline. By the time it was mentioned on the "devblog" it was already set in stone. The book was probably already on its way to layout.

This is a problem a lot of game companies have. Running previews/playtests/demos for marketing purposes when all decisions have already been made.

Note, I'm all for roleplaying social encounters. But if in doubt, roll the dice and let the GM tell you if your character did it better or maybe worse than you just did.

Or add/subtract some bonus dice for roleplaying.

[phlapjackage]

I saw this about the Leadership skill:
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php? ... #msg212554

I think they're taking the "everyone has a role in combat" shtick too far, and slowly turning SR into some sort of MMO clone like D&D4. The Leadership skill stat-block stinks of it.

[Dragon Instincts]

I saw this about the Leadership skill:
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php? ... #msg212554

I think they're taking the "everyone has a role in combat" shtick too far, and slowly turning SR into some sort of MMO clone like D&D4. The Leadership skill stat-block stinks of it.

Yup, "Command" seems like some sort of mind control. You just accept me as your leader, because... I've won the opposed test.
Maybe you are an experienced soldier and I'm a wimpy corporate boardroom guy with strong social skills, but out there on the battlefield, you will still obey my commands.

The face might convince the street sam to fight for him, but the sammy will never take tactical advice from anyone other than his own instincts or someone whose battlefield skills he really trusts in. And earning this trust takes more than just a complex action.

[Juton]

I got to skim through the 5th edition book recently, it's basically what you expect it to be. I liked them bringing back priorities but everything else was pretty meh.

They seem to have lowered the drain on most spells, between one and two points. I don't recall if it's resisted any differently in 4e. If you want to cast as a simple action it adds +3 drain, so it seems to discourage magic spam.

However recoil carries over between initiative passes now. You get extra recoil compensation equal to (iirc) 1+Str/2 which stacks with the conventional RC. They seem to want to make semi autos more viable, I don't see the point.

The attribute caps are stupid. If you want I'm sure you can get a 6 or 7 in the pools you want, so the times it will actually cap your skill checks will be very minimal. I am assuming they where put in here to curb big dice pools. This is a problem catalyst seems to have, they don't tell you to not go over the limit they just put some arbitrary BS in your way when you go over the limit. On a properly optimized character I foresee these dice caps being a hinderance only once every few games. If they want to limit dice pools they should just limit dice pools.

Cyberdecks are back, woot? I think 4e was going in the right direction, it comes the closest to having playable deckers/hackers. This isn't a step back but just a step to the side since iirc decks are now wireless. They made a bunch of changes to the names of different matrix actions, time will tell if they actually improved its gameplay.

As disappointing as this book is, I don't think this will edition fail like the transition from D&D 3.5 to 4e. They kept the mechanics and the aesthetics close enough to 4e that CGL loyalists won't have much trouble transitioning. The art in the book is also pretty good as well, that may convince people on the fence to pick it up.

[Otakusensei]

Cyberdecks were fun when cellphones were the size of briefcases and only worked downtown. A game system has to at least address serious questions about technological discrepancies when they base their history in our world. I liked the idea that smaller wireless matrix devices were the norm in SR4, it mirrored the modern world better. The question for SR5 should have been "Where is it technology going next?" and staked a claim on the future like the original writers of Shadowrun when they speculated on virtual reality. Instead CGL has fallen back on rotten laurels.

I'm still curious about the fluff they chose to go with, even if it's in a morbid sense. SR4 was never super clear on how big a commlink was (Laptop? Cigarette pack? Stick of gum? Thumbnail?), they just told you it was portable. Kinda like how they did away with equipment weight. That decision was hit or miss, but it did take a lot of the fiddly unfun bookkeeping out of the game. How (Why?) do you re-introduce chunkiness to that mix? Did they miss the section on Nexi in Unwired?

Most of all, why do I keep finding old fucks laying around? How do I get rid of these and leave this game to die?