Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

[Prak]

Lug around a wand.
The wand allows you to use a spell.
If dropped, the wand's benefit ends.

That's what a wand does. It's not a matter of whether Plane Shift is on your spell list, the wand doesn't actually care. It's work is done, allowing you to cast a spell without using a slot. It's the wizard's job to have Plane Shift or whatever on his list--not to use the wand itself, but to use the "slot" of the wand.

[Grek]

Nowhere does it say that you can only emulate spell completion or spell trigger items, instead it explicitly says that you can use the skill to emulate "the spell ability or class features of another class" you need "to activate a magic item".

"Have X on your spell list" is not a class feature and, even if it were, it would let you pretend you had the spell ability of whatever class you were emulating, not add spells to the bard list. The bit about "emulate the spell ability... of another class" in the top section refers specifically to the sections on scrolls and wands, which allows you to, separately from where it allows you to fake class features, make DC 20+X UMD checks to ignore the "must have the spell on on your class list" requirement for activating spell completion and spell trigger items with a caster level of X. Since a Knowstone is neither of spell trigger or spell activation, those sections don't apply either.

[wotmaniac]

UMD to emulate a class feature is talking about using a Knowstone, not scrolls.

oh, .... well, .... but, ... I thought .....
There you go again, trying to confuse the issue with your "facts".

It seem that the only class feature that you would have to emulate is "[class] spell casting" -- which is indeed a class feature to be emulated. I'd also go so far as to say that stuff like spell slots, available spell list(s), etc., all fall under the purview of "[class] spell casting".

[Judging__Eagle]

Elsewhere, it mentions that Arcane Spells can be learned from scrolls, other caster's spell books.

Man, if only there were some kind of creature that could cast as a Sorcerer but explicitly had the Cleric spell list and could cast those spells as Arcane spells or even scribe scrolls of them as Arcane Sorc/Wiz spells! But surely such a creature could not exist!

Or indeed, a smartass Warlock (level 12, shitty CArc version) who scribes scrolls not through knowing the spells but through bullshitting it with UMD and can go "Yeah I'll whip up a scroll of (Heal, Blasphemy, whatever), and... what the hell, I'll make it an Arcane scroll for kicks".

I'm not saying there aren't lots of ways around it. As I pointed out in my original post, there are plenty of arcane healing spells. But you can't just pick up a divine scroll and add it to your spells known. Any reading to that effect goes well beyond 'permissive'.

Now, I'm not saying I'd object to it. Why should Clerics have all the healing? But in a core only game, you're going to have a hard time getting divine spells into your Wizard's spellbook without the independent research.

I believe that Koumei is laughing behind her hand at you, because they are pointing out a specific example that exists on a very well known D&D creature.

Also, that you should probably read Frank & Kieth's "Tome" content at least once.

It will prevent jokes like this from flying over your head like cloud giant bean farms.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drag ... goldDragon

[Username17]

So rules as written, you have two choices with the Knowstone as a Bard. The first is that you can emulate the first level of a class that has the class feature to add spells to your Bard Class List. There are many, and the DC would be 21. Having done that, you'd then expend one of your Bard spell slots and cast Planeshift. The second one is that you can emulate the fourteenth level of Sorcerer to actually have a spell slot that could be expended to power the Knowstone and then cast Planeshift without expending any of your slots. The DC of that would be 34.

So I've thought about this more, and I can't make it go.

1. Lug around a knowstone for 24 hours.
2. The knowstone grants knowledge of the spell.
3. If dropped, the knowstone's benefit ends.

That's what the knowstone does. It's not a matter of convincing the knowstone that the bard has plane shift or whatever on his spell list. The knowstone doesn't actually care. It's work is done--it granted knowledge of the spell. It's the bard's job to have plane shift or whatever on his list--not to use the knowstone itself but to use the knowledge the knowstone's granted.

The bard's used this magic device merely by carrying it around. He just can't use what it's given him. He's been given wings but can't fly or some shit.

The bard himself isn't a magic device, right?

No. That is sort of conceptually what it's for, but that is not in fact what it says. What it says is:

A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally

So you use up a spell slot and the item lets you cast a spell you don't know. The example in the book is an item that lets you bless water in exchange for using up a turning attempt; and then using Use Magic Device to pay that cost. That's a really messed up example, because it outright says that you can use items that modify the outcomes of using charges of abilities that you don't have in order to replicate both having the ability and the expenditure of the use of the ability.

In the magic chalice example, we emulate the class feature "turn undead" and in doing so we also get the effects of expending one of the uses of that class feature. In the Knowstone example, we emulate the class feature "spellcasting", and in doing so we also get the effects of expending one of the uses of that class feature. It's just that the second option is obviously broken. But hey, so is almost any other use of that facet of Use Magic Device, from emulating Wild Shape for a Druid's Vestment to emulating Rage for a Necklace of the Marauding Beast.

"Have X on your spell list" is not a class feature

Yes it is. The class feature of "spellcasting", "advanced learning", and "desert insight" all put spells on your spell list, and emulating any of them would let you act as if you had spells on your spell list. For fuck's sake, using emulate class feature to emulate having a spell on your class list is literally and specifically called out in the "use a scroll" example on page 86 of the PHB.

-Username17

[Grek]

Use a scroll and emulate class feature are two different uses of UMD, just like First Aid and Treat Poison are two different uses of the Heal skill.

Spellcasting, Advanced Learning and Desert Insight are all class features with the effect of adding spells to various spell lists, but the effect of a feature is not the same thing as the feature that grants it, for the same reason that "gain a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves" isn't a class feature of the Barbarian despite the fact that it's one of the things Rage does.

[Prak]

Spellcasting is a class ability. Sorcerer Spellcasting is also a class feature. It is a version of the class feature Spellcasting which includes having Plane Shift on your spell list.

[Username17]

Use a scroll and emulate class feature are two different uses of UMD, just like First Aid and Treat Poison are two different uses of the Heal skill.

Did you read page 68 of the PHB?

Did you look at any spellcasting class at all? They all have the class feature "spellcasting", that puts spells on their spell list.

You're simply not making any sense at all.

-Username17

[Grek]

Did you read that next paragraph at all?

Emulating a Class Feature does not give you the benefits of the feature. It only lets you use items which require that feature.

Emulating the "Spellcasting" feature of a Sorcerer or whatever other class you choose does not let you cast spells, does not give you spell slots, does not give you spells known, does not add spells to your spell list and does not give you a caster level. All of those things are effects of the Spellcasting feature, not features unto themselves.

When you emulate a Sorcerer's Spellcasting feature, you don't add Plane Shift to your spell list. Especially not to your bard spell list. You don't get spell slots that you can expend to activate items. Especially not bard spell slots of a level that bards don't normally get. You just get to pretend that you have Spellcasting whenever an item asks if you can cast spells before letting you use it.

[Prak]

Then what the fuck good is it? Seriously, what is the point of emulating the class feature at all if you can't actually emulate it (eg, convince the device you have a spell list with a given spell)?

[Kaelik]

All of those things are effects of the Spellcasting feature, not features unto themselves.

This is a distinction without a difference.

If you emulate having the Sorcerer's spellcasting feature you, by definition, are emulating having planeshift on your spell list.

Having a class feature gives you the effects of that class feature. Emulating a class feature emulates the effects of that feature.

[Grek]

Then what the fuck good is it? Seriously, what is the point of emulating the class feature at all if you can't actually emulate it (eg, convince the device you have a spell list with a given spell)?

It lets you activate items which require you to be a spellcaster. Or ones that require you be a 5th level or higher wizard before they'll work.

Having a class feature gives you the effects of that class feature. Emulating a class feature emulates the effects of that feature

If that were true, you could emulate trapfinding to disarm magical traps as a non-rogue, emulate having arbitrary feats using bonus feats, avoid poisoning yourself with magical poisons by emulating the poison use ability and cast spells using emulated spell slots. That interpretation is deeply stupid and should be ignored.

[Username17]

Then what the fuck good is it? Seriously, what is the point of emulating the class feature at all if you can't actually emulate it (eg, convince the device you have a spell list with a given spell)?

It lets you activate items which require you to be a spellcaster. Or ones that require you be a 5th level or higher wizard before they'll work.

Also it lets you activate items that require you to be a specific level of a spellcasting class and use up one of your daily uses of the emulated feature. As per the magic chalice example on page 68. The thing you keep pretending doesn't exist.

-Username17

[Grek]

It's not in the version I'm looking at, so I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

[Username17]

It's not in the version I'm looking at, so I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

Sorry, having a dyslexia moment. Page 86.

For example, Lidda finds a magic chalice that turns regular water into holy water when a cleric or an experienced paladin channels positive energy into it as if turning undead. She attempts to activate the item by emulating the Cleric's undead turning ability. Her effective cleric level is her check minus 20. Since a cleric can turn undead at 1st level, she needs a Use Magic Device check of 21 or higher to succeed.

That example is very problematic, and it implies a bunch of extremely broken things. But it is not in any way ambiguous. Lidda uses the item not only as if she had Turn Undead as one of her class features, but as if she also had a Turn Undead attempt to use up and used one up for that purpose.

Any of your whining about how having spellcasting isn't the same thing as having the spells on your spell list being on your list or whatever the fuck has to grapple with that very simple and no nonsense description of how the ability works. You need to expend a use of a daily use limited ability to activate an item, making a UMD test allows you to activate it without literally expending anything at all. That's what the skill does. That is what it has always done.

-Username17

[hyzmarca]

This may be stupid nitpicking, but the example says that the chalice is activated when positive energy is channeled into it as if turning undead. It does not say that doing so uses it a turn undead attempt. Channeling positive energy as if turning undead is not the same thing as attempting to turn undead.

One could argue that a Cleric can channel positive energy as if attempting to turn undead as often as he wants and that this would only require using a turn undead attempt if the positive energy was actually directed at some undead in an attempt to turn it.

[Whatever]

But that would mean it's a Chalice of Unlimited Holy Water. I don't think they mean to suggest that such an item could exist.

[ishy]

There are no rules for a cleric channel positive energy as if attempting to turn undead though.
So the question turns into, who can or can't. And how?

But basically yes, it is stupid nitpicking. If you start nitpicking that badly many things fall apart.

[hyzmarca]

But that would mean it's a Chalice of Unlimited Holy Water. I don't think they mean to suggest that such an item could exist.

Of coure it could. There's already a decanter of endless water, after all. All that you'd need to do is add a bless water enchantment to that.

Actually, a chalice with Create Water and Bless Water use activated or continuous would only cost 2750gp, substantially less than a decanter of endless water.

[Kaelik]

Having a class feature gives you the effects of that class feature. Emulating a class feature emulates the effects of that feature

If that were true, you could emulate trapfinding to disarm magical traps as a non-rogue, emulate having arbitrary feats using bonus feats, avoid poisoning yourself with magical poisons by emulating the poison use ability and cast spells using emulated spell slots. That interpretation is deeply stupid and should be ignored.

No you complete and utter idiot, learn to read. Emulate a class feature lets you emulate a class feature for the purpose of activating a magic item, to whit:

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

So if there was a magic item that allowed you to cast Dispel Magic on Magic Traps as long as you had the Find Traps ability, you could emulate the find traps ability and then the item would cast dispel magic.

And if there was an item that poisoned enemies, but said that it poisoned you too, unless you had the Assassin's Use Poison ability, you could use it without poisoning yourself.

And if there was an item that allowed you to poison someone with any poison you were immune to, you could emulate the immunity to poison of some class, and then poison them with Drow Poison. Because even though being immune to Drow Poison is an effect of poison immunity, you can emulate the effect by emulating the class feature for the purpose of activating items.

So if an item casts a spell so long as that spell is on your spell list, you can emulate being a level 1 X of a class that has it on it's list, and then you will activate the item at it will cast the spell. Because you can emulate having the spell on your class list just like you can emulate being immune to drow poison, because emulating the feature by definition emulates the effects of the feature.

[DSMatticus]

And if there was an item that poisoned enemies, but said that it poisoned you too, unless you had the Assassin's Use Poison ability, you could use it without poisoning yourself.

This is not unambiguously correct (nor are the next two). It's totally legit to argue that activation of a magic item is distinct from conditional behavior inside of the effects of a magic item. If UMD only allows you to emulate a class feature for the purposes of activation, but not for the purposes of modifying behavior post-activation (which is consistent with the quoted portion at least), then you can't fake having Use Poison through UMD to avoid being poisoned, because that's a part of the item's behavior and not its activation.

[Kaelik]

And if there was an item that poisoned enemies, but said that it poisoned you too, unless you had the Assassin's Use Poison ability, you could use it without poisoning yourself.

This is not unambiguously correct (nor are the next two). It's totally legit to argue that activation of a magic item is distinct from conditional behavior inside of the effects of a magic item. If UMD only allows you to emulate a class feature for the purposes of activation, but not for the purposes of modifying behavior post-activation (which is consistent with the quoted portion at least), then you can't fake having Use Poison through UMD to avoid being poisoned, because that's a part of the item's behavior and not its activation.

The item can be activated either by someone with poison use, or without it. It does different things based on who activates it. The condition on which the effect depends is what class features the person activating it has.

[zugschef]

Why do people insist on manipulate form working in the way the pun-pun build assumes it does, but are at the same time adamant when it comes to denying that wizards totally can copy any magic scroll no matter what the source into their spellbook? The former is pulling shit out of your ass, the latter is exactly what the rules say, yet they claim the exact opposite. I just don't get it.

[ishy]

When you hear the first one, it uses splats and rules most people don't know, don't care about and will probably never play with. And it sounds awesome too.

And many people when they hear of the wizard spell list they make the assumption that wizards can only cast those spells. Most don't bother reading the rules, they just assume it works like that. And they don't like it when you point out that they are wrong.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

I knew by asking that eventually the magic chalice would rear its ugly head. Fuck that example. Good God, that shit creates way more problems than it solves.

Though it does clear up activating a knowstone.

Activation: A knowstone provides its bearer with knowledge of the inscribed spell, which he can then use his spell slots to cast normally (as if the inscribed spell were among his known spells). The knowstone's bearer need not make any conscious decision to use the knowstone apart from deciding to cast the inscribed spell. (This is considered part of the spellcasting action.) Any spontaneous caster can use a knowstone, provided that the spell it includes is on his spell list and he can cast spells of its level.

I am 100% certain that the bolded text was intended to clarify that the knowstone doesn't grant any spell slots, but, fortunately or unfortunately, by an absolutely literal interpretation of the knowstone and the Use Magic Device skill, the bard could emulate the spells class feature of at least a Clr9 (DC 29) (or higher to take more folks along) and, if he needed to, emulate a Wisdom score high enough to cast 5th-level cleric spells, and then expend 1 of those slots gained via the spells emulated class feature to only cast plane shift. All because of that bolded text.

And, of course, each new emulation would be a distinct iteration, so acquiring the item means he could do it at will with a high enough Use Magic Device skill.

That's nuts, but, yeah, I'm down with it.

Hell, I only wanted the knowstone to add off-list spells to spells known, but, man, that's ridiculous. Thanks.