The Feeling of Epic

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Talisman »

Koumei at [unixtime wrote:1202103184[/unixtime]]There is nothing that can make "fighting kobolds" cool or impressive. Nothing.


Hah. This is true only if your GM lacks any scrap of creativity and the players refuse to suspend their disbelief and participate in the shared storytelling that is an RPG. I guarantee, I could make a fight with kobolds cool, impressive, and memorable. I'm going to do so next Saturday, for a party of 12th-level characters.

Koumei, it sounds as though (for whatever reason) you have decided to hate low-level D&D. I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise, but I will say that many, many gamers enjoy playing non-uber characters. Hell, the so-called "sweet spot" of D&D is levels 6-12. That's the point where you have enough "toys" to be cool, but not so many that you're bitch-slapping deities.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by JonSetanta »

Really? I read on ENWorld that the sweet spot was exactly at 6, and so the whole E6 getup where you stay right there but advance in feats/some other things was pioneered.
There were some discussions here at the time, too.
I agree with Koumei, killing the little shits is a waste of time at any level, but on an Epic scale if you kill enough of them it does become fun.
Say, thousands at a time.
Nations of death with every encounter.
And there are always more, since they are Abyssal Kobolds serving as the lowest rank of certain demon lords.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Koumei »

I'd say 6-12 is a lot of fun. Note that this sweet spot happens after the early levels, though. Bitch-slapping deities, take it or leave it. It can be a good way to end a campaign, but it doesn't have to get that far.

But it needs to start in the sweet spot. Because of the mortality of low level characters ("Oh, the ork rolled high. I guess you're dead.") and the lack of importance in what they do, I'm unable to care about my character and invest anything in them. The most I'll invest in them is optimising the fuck out of them so they can survive, and to push them towards the sweet spot quicker, but should they fail and be left dead in a gutter, I really won't care. It'll have just been X gaming sessions or posts set on fire.

And it's not so much me choosing to hate it. It's based on years of experience with absolutely no exceptions whatsoever, with a variety of DMs, including some fantastic ones who ran brilliant mid-high level games.

I doubt you with your "making kobolds cool". If you're doing it by giving them class levels to make them level-appropriate encounters, then it has nothing to do with them being short, scaley fuckheads that no-one likes, and everything to do with their level. If you're a level 12 wizard, it doesn't matter much whether you're a human, goblin or turnip, because hey, 6th level spells!
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Username17 »

Saying that you can't feel awesome hacking down kobolds is like saying that you can't get it up for killing orcs. Or humans.

Humanoids are the "easy out" - they are precisely as bad ass as you want them to be, so whatever level you happen to be can include humanoids as antagonists and that'll be fine. I ran a game starting at 2nd level where the opening antagonists were gnolls pulling fog crap like in The 13th Warrior. It went down pretty well. But the enemies were just CR 1 for the most part.

Githyanki, Kua-Toa, Gnolls, Troglodytes, Lizardfolk, and many more are all exotic without being racially powerful. Now if you do insist on fighting monsters rather than wicked people, you are sort of in a bind in D&D. The Dragons and such that you face at that level are tiny (literally) and that's embarrassing. But there are still Ghouls, Krenshar, Giant Bees, Zombies, Blink Dogs, Giant Ants, and Worgs. And low level Pokemasters can have all kinds of cool stuff like Corralax and Ash Rat.

Yeah, the low CRs get filled up with crap like very miniscule dragons and actual house pets, but as long as you stick to the Humanoids, Magical Beasts, Vermin, and Undead it's pretty cool.

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by ckafrica »

I think it is nice to have at least a good part of the game where the world around you is of concern is good. I want to have a time where picking a fight with the town guard is not a good idea. Or at least its possibility.

THat being said, fighting normal rats is lame but then we make them mutant rats of unusual size caused by some darker cause and it can cool and acceptable to harmed by them.

What we need is to arrange it so no level appropriate opponent is going to out and out kill you on ANY single blow when you are unharmed.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Koumei »

That's a good start. And to also make even the weakest things that have challenge ratings be sufficiently awesome.

So, if rats exist as monsters, they're not what you buy in stores, they're not the "small dog" sized ones in (whichever country apparently has those), they're at least as big as Alsatians. If kobolds were to... never mind kobolds, they're *supposed* to be weak things that everyone kicks about for fun. But you get the idea. Make the starting point feel as though the character is better than a mortal person could ever be - even if every town guard is also that tough, or if a handful of guards could still kill them.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by ckafrica »

What if every race had a base level you took in it which gave you its abilities (perhaps 3 options based on the 3 heroic character types) and then you added your heroic levels. Normals would not have heroic levels and so you naturally be inferior to any hero. It would still even allow for people to play the adventure of "BECOMING A HERO" (sounds of trumpets fanfare) a la many video games, should they so desire.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

What do you mean that kobolds can't be awesome? They can be, but the thing is, you gotta catch them in their lair. They have traps EVERYWHERE, for one thing. I like the "Traps are a racial hobby" idea, and that they basically put traps everywhere they can, it goes beyond softening up the enemy. Not only that, their lairs are full of choke points, dead ends, and killzones. Sure, individual kobolds aren't nessissarily smart enough to use these effectively but there are alot of them, and even then you only need the few who have had the brains and oppertunity to get a few levels of a real class under them to show everyone what needs to be done. Then once you get into the lair proper, not only are you dealing with traps everywhere, you're dealing with wave after wave of kobold, dozens at a time of screaming insane dragon-rat-dog people coming at you, and before you have time to recover from the last wave, another wave just popped up out of a secret door to come at you. They breed insanely fast, so I can see even a moderate warren having a couple hundred of the little buggers.

Imagine chasing the last few stragglers of a wave into a room, having the door slam down shut behind you, and suddenly, you realize that this is a wide open room with balconies and arrow slits, and now you're facing 40 or 50 kobolds with crossbows and spears. They do shit damage, but really, how many individual packets of shit damage are YOU able to take?

I'm not even saying you can't get out of this situation with your skin if your clever and lucky, but my point here is this: Any creature can be epic if handled properly. Saying otherwise shows a lack of creativity and vision.

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by RandomCasualty »

Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1202120808[/unixtime]]
I'm not even saying you can't get out of this situation with your skin if your clever and lucky, but my point here is this: Any creature can be epic if handled properly. Saying otherwise shows a lack of creativity and vision.


I don't really consider that epic.

The problem is that there's no fame to be gained from the task. Nobody is impressed that you slaughtered a bunch of kobolds. Even if the task is hard, you've everything to lose and nothing to gain. If you die or get your asses kicked you're humiliated. If you win, well you should have won, so it's no big deal.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Koumei »

That's basically it. When you wade through armies of them, slaughtering them all, that says "I'm pretty cool". When they're a challenge for you, that says "Where did I go wrong here?"

Sure, using their traps, chokepoints and engineering skills, they can make a decent challenge, but if you tell people about your success, they'll say "Oo-ar, oo-ar. I tied my own shoelaces today. I think I made a greater achievement. Heh, kobolds..." and you've just admitted to still be fighting those.

Meanwhile, Hero McShinyPants over there is galumphing back with the head of the Jabbawocky.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Whoever made a house cat a real combat threat is a tool. Simple as that.

Some people want the PCs to start as apprentices with really low end quests like clearing rats from a cellar. Well I assume some people want that.

I'd rather start just slightly better than competent. Koumei clearly wants to start at pretty damn sweet.

The level system should have room at the bottom for people to be weaker than a low level starting character. 3e does this poorly with the commoner class. The smart solution would be to make level one not the recommended starting level. Start the PCs at level three. That leaves room for level two town guards (for the PCs to feel individually superior to) and level one non-combatants.

Anyone who wants to start more hardcore can just start at higher level.

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Crissa »

If at the beginning of the story your characters are the best not just of your town, but of your race...

...How much character advancement can there be?

It really sounds as though you don't like the idea of having a beginning, merely and end. Much like rapa-nui doesn't want an end, just a middle.

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Koumei: I am not responsible for Random Gamer Schmuck 3241's lack of creativity and vision.

I stand by my statements.

(Edited to sound less like a personal attack.)
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Koumei »

And I'll stand by mine - it's not my fault Andy Collins is a crack addict who can't make a game that holds together at high levels.

And as long as the rules say, in huge bold letters, that a game needn't start at level 1, and that "X story would be about level X" as examples (ie anything that involves slaying a dragon other than "We'll stand on rooftops and shoot millions of arrows, praying for a pair of 20s", the staple of fantasy, is looking at being leagues above kobolds. Sure, it happens at the end of the story, but they don't start with the orks or kobolds either. And yes, I think LotR was a very dull historical report of things which didn't happen to occur, and would make a terrible game.) then I'm fine with that.

So let the rules cover shit-shovellers, cunning goblin-exterminators and sahuagin-hunters, dragon slayers and planar champions, maybe even godslayers, so you have the whole heap. Make it work at every level. And make it really clear that you can start and end at any given point.

More clear than WotC did. So many people still start as shit-shovellers because "it's level 1, the first thing you see on the chart there. And that's traditional."
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Crissa »

That's a much better argument, Koumei.

Although I certainly think the 'five or ten levels shooting a crossbow before you have a schtick' thing definitely needs to go. But I certainly want to be able to have adventures which might not be saving the town... Or even for the town to care that I saved it from something.

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Falgund »

If the "kobold killing is not epic" statement is aimed at my sample adventure, know that while killing the kobold was a solution to the adventure, it was not the epic one. The epic solution was to succeed restoring the peace between the two tribes. And they were kobold only because of two things: Draconic legacy (and the item the adventurer had to retrieve), and that the adventurers were also Lawful Evil. This adventure could also have worked with two human clans or whatever two races able of peace.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Crissa »

Capt'n Fang.

Epic.

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1202125418[/unixtime]]If at the beginning of the story your characters are the best not just of your town, but of your race...

...How much character advancement can there be?

It really sounds as though you don't like the idea of having a beginning, merely and end. Much like rapa-nui doesn't want an end, just a middle.


Advancement is nice, but unnecessary. Conan has a pretty nice character arc, and the only thing that changes are the sets and makeup.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Prak »

Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1202104729[/unixtime]]
Koumei at [unixtime wrote:1202103184[/unixtime]]There is nothing that can make "fighting kobolds" cool or impressive. Nothing.


Hah. This is true only if your GM lacks any scrap of creativity and the players refuse to suspend their disbelief and participate in the shared storytelling that is an RPG. I guarantee, I could make a fight with kobolds cool, impressive, and memorable. I'm going to do so next Saturday, for a party of 12th-level characters.

Koumei, it sounds as though (for whatever reason) you have decided to hate low-level D&D. I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise, but I will say that many, many gamers enjoy playing non-uber characters. Hell, the so-called "sweet spot" of D&D is levels 6-12. That's the point where you have enough "toys" to be cool, but not so many that you're bitch-slapping deities.


Hell, I, as a player, made such an encounter memorable... course my Monstrous Spider Skeleton, human skeleton lackeys, squirrel familiar delivering inflict spells to heal said lackeys and goblin necromancer making all that shit possible, helped...
Koumei wrote: That's basically it. When you wade through armies of them, slaughtering them all, that says "I'm pretty cool". When they're a challenge for you, that says "Where did I go wrong here?"

Sure, using their traps, chokepoints and engineering skills, they can make a decent challenge, but if you tell people about your success, they'll say "Oo-ar, oo-ar. I tied my own shoelaces today. I think I made a greater achievement. Heh, kobolds..." and you've just admitted to still be fighting those.

Meanwhile, Hero McShinyPants over there is galumphing back with the head of the Jabbawocky.

And then once you’re higher level, you knock Hero McShineyPants out, polymorph him into a gnome and teleport him into a nice big kobold warren, and see what he’s got to say about it then.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Crissa »

Prak, now you're using crazy apostrophes.

What gives?

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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by rapanui »

Crissa said:
"It really sounds as though you don't like the idea of having a beginning, merely and end. Much like rapa-nui doesn't want an end, just a middle."

Please do not put words in my mouth. Thank you.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Talisman »

D&D - hell, any RPG - of any level is only as cool, exciting and awesome as the GM + players make it. The GM has to come up with a creative yet flexible story, and the players have to offer a certain amount of investment and suspension of disbelief. Cool low-level, lame high-level...whatever.

Koumei, you seems to be saying that kobolds with class levels "don't count," which is baloney. Kobolds are designed to have class levels. If you refuse to allow yourself any creativity with a critter, of course it's going to get old. Whenever I GM, I try to throw something new at the players, whether it be a monster, spell, setting, tactics, or whatever.

The concept of "kobolds are losers" is metagaming, unless the GM establishes that kobolds actually are losers. If the GM decides the kobolds in his world are renowned as badass trapmeisters, you might hear "Don't mess with him - they call him Bjorn Koboldslayer!" Like orcs, hobgoblins, worgs, mind flayers, and undead, kobolds are exactly as cool as you make them.

Want some awesome kobolds? Consider these concepts:

  • A half-fiend kobold, the chosen of Kurtulmak, wages a holy war against the gnomes and their allies. His minions are fiendish kobold anti-paladins, kobold clerics, and dragonblooded kobold sorcerers, backed up by dragons.
  • A kobold rogue becomes a master assassin and begins systematically assassinating heroes. A master of disguise, he throws the heroes off his trail with red herrings and frames.
  • A mighty kobold arcanist becomes a golem-crafter. After crafting several hollow iron golems, his tribe goes to war. The leader rides atop an iron golem in the shape of a wingless dragon; around him mark the hollow golems, their rib cages riddles with holes and each containing a half-dozen crack kobold archers.
  • A quintet of kobold siblings follow the path of martial mastery, each becoming a swordmaster of a different school (longsword, dual-wielding, archery, etc). They then hire out as mercenaries.
  • A kobold lich vows to avenge generations of gnomish insults. His fanatical followers rise as wights a round after their demise.
  • Due to some apocalyptic happenings, the Orb of Midnight must be recovered, but it was cast into the Doom Rift an eon ago. The only way down leads through the home warrens of the Redscales, the largest, fiercest kobold tribe in the land. You must either fight or sneak your way through endless death traps, labyrinthine tunnels, and thousands of warriors all willing to die for their race. Or you could try diplomacy.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Bigode »

Also, for the part of "in real life, people aren't individually important", you probably forget how important officers and special troops are in real war times (which's what D&D is all the damn time), or how high-end scientists and politicians are important all the time; in a D&D-RL analogy, almost everyone's commoners rather than people with a maxed-out hit die.
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Re: The Feeling of Epic

Post by Prak »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1202151488[/unixtime]]Prak, now you're using crazy apostrophes.

What gives?

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eh? what do you mean?
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