New: Master Ability and Condition Lists

[SphereOfFeetMan]

The attack abilities listed in the first post seems like a list of categories of attacks. Do you want a list of iconic attack abilities that are then individualized to each monster (like gazes), or do you want a list of all possible attack abilities that a monster or PC could have as class abilities?

[Aycarus]

1202353341[/unixtime]]I like attribute based conditions, even though we'll need more.

I think making attribute based conditions locks us into an unnecessary structure and forces the creation of overlapping conditions (organ failure? paralyzation / petrification?). Further, it doesn't easily allow many other relevant possibilities including blindness, deafness, etc. Sure -- the symmetry is nice, but I think it hurts more than it helps in this case.

[Crissa]

I don't think attribute damage should result in death. We want that in wounds, only.

But a wound could give a status in which your stat was reduced, that seems fine.

-Crissa

[Username17]

For basic playability, I want a pile of Narakan and Pretalokan abilities sufficient to make two iconic classes each. So there's three things we want:

• A list of cool names so that we can flesh out a list like This One.
  
  
• A list of abstract attack types (inflicted conditions, area, range).
  
  
• A comprehensive list of inflictable conditions.

Remember that the basic set-up allows ability names to be very much larger than abstractly defined abilities. A bolt of damage that sickens on a successful effect roll is abstractly the same regardless of what it is. But if it happens to be a force of Rakshasa magic that tears through the illusion of the world and rends you out of true existence (Charisma to hit, Dexterity to damage, attacks Perception Armor Class) that's "different" from it being a globe of deadly fungus spores (Strength to hit, Intelligence to damage, attacks Fortitude Armor class).

Theoretically any abstract attack could appear iterated in the ability lists one hundred and eighty times by using different attribute and defense combinations and having different flavor text. Obviously, most potential combinations won't be part of the game.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Narakan Abilities
Blood Drain
Spit Venom
Aura of Filth
Stab Shadow
Organ Extraction
Shameless Woman Magic
Corrupt Innocence
Inflict Agony/Strike Genitals
'Lovers' Suicide'
Tastes Like Ash
Prison of Bones
Blood Puppetry
Anthropomancy
Rip Tendon
Bleeds Foulness
Anti-Life Equation
Shaming Strike
See Sins
Steal Youth
Crotch-Breath Combo
Putrefy Ground
Release the Bones
Projectile Vomit
"I Keep My Organs Somewhere Else"
Invisible Strike

[Username17]

Thanks.

-Username17

[the_taken]

Pretalokan abilities
Mirror Punch
Mirror Sword
Pummel Whack
Fist of the Beast King
Lick from the Yellow Tongue
Ratapult
Avalanche Screech
Instant Stone Wall
Wall of Blades
Haze of Solitude
Hazardous Explosives Delivery
Wave of Iron
Flying Dagger
Stone Prison
Summon Second Cousin
Better Bullets
"Look! A distraction!"
Medusa's Slap
Pythagorean Snipe

[Username17]

The question of whether to have conditions stack or cancel one another is an open one. It is entirely possible to have a system in which many conditions like Slow are micro doom tracks, where a character gets slowed, then more Slowed N times and ends up paralyzed. This would make spamming Slow effects into an alternate win condition for combat. Alternately, a Slow effect could be stand alone and not upgradeable, which would inherently encourage people to cycle through maneuvers as they successfully landed conditions on people.

-Username17

[Aycarus]

1202409064[/unixtime]]The question of whether to have conditions stack or cancel one another is an open one. It is entirely possible to have a system in which many conditions like Slow are micro doom tracks, where a character gets slowed, then more Slowed N times and ends up paralyzed. This would make spamming Slow effects into an alternate win condition for combat. Alternately, a Slow effect could be stand alone and not upgradeable, which would inherently encourage people to cycle through maneuvers as they successfully landed conditions on people.

I'm not a big fan of the micro doom tracks, since inevitably the players would have to keep track of this information. As a consequence, they might have like 5 different hit point systems to simultaneously track.

[the_taken]

1202409444[/unixtime]]I'm not a big fan of the micro doom tracks, since inevitably the players would have to keep track of this information. As a consequence, they might have like 5 different hit point systems to simultaneously track.

Agreed.
As an alternative, we could have it so that some conditions have a worse tier that occurs on a critical (defence beaten by 10?)
For instance: Muddy Grabby Hands is an INT + STR based attack that targets an enemy's agility. It summons hands made of mud from the earth to latch on to someone and drag them down. It's automatic affect is that it causes slow, but if the target has a particularly low agility to begin with, then they become paralyzed by the fact that it didn't dodge enough muddy hands to be able move around.

[Aycarus]

Here's the list of conditions currently on the wiki for discussion (with some additions).

• 
  
• Asleep: Unable to act. Awaken by loud noises. May drool.
  
• Blinded: All targets are assumed to be invisible.
  
• Bound: ?
  
• Confused: Act quasi-randomly?
  
• Cursed: Penalty on ability scores / attack rolls / AC.
  
• Crippled (arm): Unable to wield two-handed weapons.
  
• Crippled (2 arms): Unable to wield weapons, cast spells.
  
• Crippled (leg): Movement rate reduced to 1/2.
  
• Crippled (2 legs): Movement rate reduced to 1/8. Always considered prone for purposes of attack.
  
• Immunity (Thing): Take no damage from attacks of type Thing.
  
• Insane: Act totally randomly.
  
• Mute: Unable to use verbal abilities.
  
• On Fire: Take damage every round.
  
• Panicked: Unable to act except to defend oneself. Always try to run away.
  
• Petrified: Cannot act at all.
  
• Resistance (Thing): Take reduced damage from attacks of type Thing.
  

Ability conditions:

• 
  
• Afraid: Penalty to attacks using Wisdom. AC penalty to attacks vs. Perception.
  
• Depressed: Penalty to attacks using Charisma. AC penalty to attacks vs. Willpower.
  
• Weakened: Penalty to attacks using Strength. AC penalty to attacks vs. Tenacity.
  
• Sickened: Penalty to attacks using Constitution. AC penalty to attacks vs. Fortitude.
  
• Slowed: Penalty to attacks using Dexterity. AC penalty to attacks vs. Dodge.
  
• Stunned: Penalty to attacks using Intelligence. AC penalty to attacks vs. Insight.
  

In filling in the attributes on this list, I've re-evaluated my opinion on both ability-based conditions (as given by Ceilingcat) and micro doom tracks. I actually think it would be kinda cool to have one micro doom track for each ability score. Each hit on those doom tracks would give you a penalty to attacks made using that ability score and a penalty to your defenses against attacks of that ability score. When your micro-doom track ends, you then receive some final condition, according to the following table:

• 
  
• Strength => Paralysis
  
• Constitution => Death
  
• Dexterity => Paralysis
  
• Charisma => Coma / Perma-sleep
  
• Wisdom => Panicked
  
• Intelligence => Insane
  

[Username17]

What if the micro-doom tracks were Voltronish? Rather than Weakened + Weakened + Weakened = Paralyzed, it was Weakened + Slowed + Stunned = Paralyzed. That would encourage cooperation and attack rotation rather than hyperspecialization.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

1202456524[/unixtime]]What if the micro-doom tracks were Voltronish? Rather than Weakened + Weakened + Weakened = Paralyzed, it was Weakened + Slowed + Stunned = Paralyzed. That would encourage cooperation and attack rotation rather than hyperspecialization.

-Username17

No.

[Crissa]

I really don't mind what combo turns into paralyzed with the micro track, as long as Weakened doesn't stack with Weakened.

-Crissa

[Neeek]

1202456524[/unixtime]]What if the micro-doom tracks were Voltronish? Rather than Weakened + Weakened + Weakened = Paralyzed, it was Weakened + Slowed + Stunned = Paralyzed. That would encourage cooperation and attack rotation rather than hyperspecialization.

Well, that would allow you to have like 5 base effects leading to 60-75 final effects.

[Username17]

Well, that would allow you to have like 5 base effects leading to 60-75 final effects.

Only if the order matters, which I definitely don't think it should. If you did a simple schema like "If you have a pealty condition to three of your attributes, you are fucked" - then an unordered selection of 3 from 6 would produce 2 final states (assuming no duplication).

-Username17

[Crissa]

That's not right, Frank.

I mean, logically it is more than two: 1-2-3, 1-2-4, 1-2-5, 1-2-6; 1-3-4, 1-3-5, 1-3-6; 1-4-5, 1-4-6; are all the sets including the first column.

Not to say that it's an important error, but...

-Crissa

[Username17]

It's a typographical error. Should say "20" rather than "2".

-Username17

[Aycarus]

1202456524[/unixtime]]What if the micro-doom tracks were Voltronish? Rather than Weakened + Weakened + Weakened = Paralyzed, it was Weakened + Slowed + Stunned = Paralyzed. That would encourage cooperation and attack rotation rather than hyperspecialization.

That could end up killing a lot of creatures very quickly if your party had three relevant casters that hit with all their attacks before the target got the opportunity to react. My biggest qualm is that this doom track is independent of level.

-- edit --
Thinking about it some more, I think Voltronish tracks might remove some of the tactical nature of combat. Namely, against any opponent, players will just try to spam all of their abilities hoping to get BAR-BAR-BAR. There's not really any encouragement to learn about the target's weaknesses and use those against him since any combination of three successes will work.

[Username17]

The problems of Save or Dies are numerous:

• Team Irrelevance. If your abilities are going to take out an opponent by themselves just as fast whether your friends are beating on the same target or not, the team aspect to combat is lost completely.
  
  
• Anticlimacticism. When each event is as likely to end everything as any other, the actual climax is every attack, and that wears thin really fast. Actually defeating the foe ends up being something of a let down every time whether it happens right away or on round 12.
  
  
• Tactical Uselessness There is no available synergy for hitting people with death fingers. You just spam your attack until it works.
  
  
• Monochromatic Attacks Basilisks just use their death attack over and over again. So do Sorcerers. You might as well put it on autocast or macro it.
  
  
• Feeling like a Cheap Hooker When your attacks can just blow people away on the first round you feel like a little bitch. You feel like a cheater when it works, and you feel like a failure when it doesn't.

Alternate win conditions aren't inherently bad. But one does need to keep in mind the actual problems with the alternate win conditions as exemplified by the Save or Die paradigm. And yes, the 4e SaW ("Succeed and Win") is exactly the same and has exactly the same problems as the SoD paradigm.

-Username17

[Bigode]

True. But, not that I'm attached to instant kills, but when I thought about how to keep the effects that felt less like damage in play, one idea I had was that, in a game where resistance TNs are level-fixed, instant kills would suffer a TN penalty, so that it'd require a team play setup for softening equal-leveled opposition. How do you think this would work (again, not particularly suggesting it for New Edition)?

[Username17]

You could plausibly have attacks which did hardly any damage, but whose wound effect was "Instant Kill" - which would make them into finishing moves. They are only of any meaningful use against enemies who are down to zero hit points and serve to end combat.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

1202528172[/unixtime]]You could plausibly have attacks which did hardly any damage, but whose wound effect was "Instant Kill" - which would make them into finishing moves. They are only of any meaningful use against enemies who are down to zero hit points and serve to end combat.

-Username17

Would it be possible to make those also function against creatures sufficiently crappier than you? Then it could be like the button in God of War which just tears crap enemies in half if you don't want to put in the effort to treat them like real enemies.

[JonSetanta]

I got an idea tonight that one could keep SoDs but instead give all characters 1 'death buffer' + 1 per 5 levels (levels 1, 5, 10, 15, 20)

This buffer can be used to restore the character to 1 HP if their would otherwise die, usable once per day per buffer, or maybe heal them HP equal to level.
Using the death buffer would require a move action, and naturally the would-be victim could fake death in conjunction like any good hero flick.
The expectation for encounters would then be that you must spam those SoDs, which become relatively feeble unless used in rapid succession.
The advantage of using weapons in combat would be that one could simply stand near the recovering foe and make sure that they are dead.
Ranged SoDs would have a disadvantage that one would not quite be sure if a target is dead or alive (penalty to the Perception check or whatever due to distance), and combat would last longer due to the time required to ensure absolute death

[Neeek]

1202464324[/unixtime]]

Well, that would allow you to have like 5 base effects leading to 60-75 final effects.

Only if the order matters, which I definitely don't think it should. If you did a simple schema like "If you have a pealty condition to three of your attributes, you are fucked" - then an unordered selection of 3 from 6 would produce 2 final states (assuming no duplication).

-Username17

Oh yeah. I was doing permutations when I should have been doing combinations.

20 final effects from 5 base sounds like a reasonable plan.