Eberron, With a System That Actually Fucking Works

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vagrant
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Post by vagrant »

So writing all of this lore and shit has been tons'o'fun, and even conceptually helpful (I still have no idea what to do with the arcane non-caster), but at some point this should be a game. It's not like I don't just freeform, but I do like playing actual games as well, yanno?

So that means we need a task resolution mechanic. Let's go with d20+modifiers because reasons. Now we need actual tasks to resolve! We'll call them 'minigames.' We want people to fight and some way of telling who wins. Combat minigame! We want people to talk and lie - not to the GM, so we'll need some way of adjudicating that outside of blowing the GM's cock - social minigame! Also, sneaking is a big part of stuff, so we'll need a stealth minigame. We should probably have something set for how characters move when we care about them moving - during a minigame.

Does that settle it? Probably not, but I feel that's a good starting place. Now, let's figure out at least the basics of what the minigames will look like. Let's start with combat, because it's the one people who aren't me care about more.

So what happens in combat? Someone's gotta hit someone else. They should probably have a chance to miss. This being pulp, people should rarely miss because of a lack of skill - people should miss because of their enemies skill in not getting stabbed/shot/fireball'd. And also, even if they do hit, if they ain't got the chops to actually do damage, their attack should do nothing. (Like Indy trying fisticuffs with some enormous bruiser who just stands there and laughs.)

So we can see we need at least three stats to start with. Some way of telling how good you are hitting your target - let's call that your Attack. Some way of telling how good you are not getting hit - let's call that Dodge, and some way of subtracting damage if an attack does hit - let's call that Armour. (All subject to change, like everything else.)

So since we want people to dodge instead of people missing mostly, we should make Attack and Dodge be opposed rolls. So dude one is slicing at dude two with a sword. He's going to roll a d20+Attack vs d20+Dodge, maybe? But that'll probably mean people are in fact going to missing all the time, which is boring.

Maybe let's make Dodge be a direct modifier to Attack, to represent that it is in fact harder to hit a fucker who's jumping and rolling and weaving. We still need to roll against something, though, so it looks like we'll need another stat - Defense, which we want to be a static number so combat isn't so horribly swingy. Let's say Defense will be based off Dex+Int for no good reason. Will that make Dodge a skill? Maybe, or we might just merge the two. For now, let's pretend Dodge is a skill and Defense is 10+Int mod+Dex mod, representing your general split-second ability to defend yourself. So now we have something that looks like this:
  • Attacker rolls d20+attack-target's dodge vs target's Defense
That seems somewhat reasonable. Let's pretend the attacker has hit his target. People in Eberron wear armour, sometimes Plate armour with spikes and a shield and shit, and Leather, and sometimes nothing. Armour, as we've stated previously, will be a 'You have to be this strong to ride' check - so we'll say Armour is direct damage reduction.

So if dude one is swinging a longsword for 1d8+8 damage against another dude in plate armour (8 Armour), does that mean his attack only does 1d8? Eh, it could, but we can also say that if Attackers Damage Bonus>Defender's Armour, the attack does nothing.

But wait! That means the rogue with no damage mod on his dagger will never be able to do any damage to the dude in plate armour, like say assassinating him cause he's a palace guard and they want to sneak into said palace. That is a great point, so we should probably make some sort of mechanic that allows the rogue to assassinate Palace Guards in plate armour - maybe something we'll call a Called Shot, or Sneak Attack! Maybe some weapons will also ignore X amount of armour, too, we'll see.

Now we've established how someone hits someone else, how that person dodges, defends, and reduces damage, we should have a way to track how much damage someone's taken. We'll use Hit Points! And when someone is reduced to 0 zero hitpoints, they're bleeding out and about to die.

Now let's make up numbers and show an example of this in action.

Farmer Joe is pissed off at Farmer Ben because Farmer Ben slept with Farmer Joe's daughter. Farmer Joe swings his scythe at Farmer Ben. Farmer Joe has used that scythe his entire life, so we'll see he has experience using that scythe, giving him Proficiency. What does Proficiency do? Because we don't people to feel bad about using new weapons, we'll say Proficiency gives you a bonus, and not having Proficiency doesn't give you a bonus, instead of giving you a penalty. Farmer Joe, then, has a +2 bonus to Attack because of his Scythe or Farming Implements Proficiency, in addition to his str of 16 (cause he's a farmer), giving him a +3 str mod. His Attack then, would be +2 (Proficiency) +3 Str = 5. Farmer Ben was a soldier in the Last War who learned how to not get stabbed a bit, so we'll say he's got a dodge of 5. Uh oh, this gives Farmer Joe no bonus to hit!

Let's say Farmer Ben isn't the sharpest tool in the shed (or he would've known that Farmer's Joe's daughter was engaged and may have only been seventeen), so he's got an int of 9. He's quick on his feet, though, so let's say a Dex of 14, giving him a Defense of 10-1+2=11.

Farmer Joe will hit Farmer Ben with the Scythe 45% of the time - which is good for Farmer Ben, though Farmer Ben better hit back or run away, since 45% means he's going to hit Farmer Joe sooner rather than later.

To whit: Attacker rolls 1d20+Attack-Defender's Dodge vs Defender's Defense=10+Int+Dex. On a hit, Attacker deals Weapon Damage if Damage Mod>Defender's Armour. Other no damage.

How's that look? Next up, social minigames!

Some issues I can see: Dodge scaling. Depending on how Dodge will progress, it might well result that Attack is always reduced to 0. Armour - every attack will either need to get a damage bonus from somewhere, or explicitly ignore it. If too many things ignore armour, then armour becomes useless. Defense - if Dodge scales too high, and Defense is too high as well, it'll be a fun missfest. Those are balancing issues, I think, though.
Last edited by vagrant on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Krusk
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Post by Krusk »

I skipped most of this last post because it looks like d20 with minor annoying changes.

This jumped out at me.
To whit: Attacker rolls 1d20+Attack-Defender's Dodge vs Defender's Defense=10+Int+Dex. On a hit, Attacker deals Weapon Damage if Damage Mod>Defender's Armour. Other no damage.

Thats bad and not easily calculatable with the frequency you will see attacks. My PC trys to sword one of the 4 enemies. 2 goblins with tower shields, a goblin in robes and a goblin with two daggers. I go from "Roll d20 add stuff shout my result" to "Roll d20, add stuff, ask you what i need to subtract, subtract stuff tell you my result".

In actual play "D20+Mods" allows people to rattle off a series of numbers quickly. 25, 22, 33 and 13 to hit. - OK, 2 hits-. Your method slows this down too much for minimal return.
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Post by Prak »

It also means people will miss frequently, as the attacker gets a + and a -, while defender gets two +s.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by vagrant »

Maybe make dodge a situational pool, then? I like the idea of having dodge subtract from attackers to-hit, but it might be fiddly in actual play. Though I don't think that keeping track of an additional modifier is that bad - but YMMV. If people think that's too annoying though I'll think of something else.
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

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Post by Chamomile »

Keeping track of an additional modifier is an extra two or three seconds' delay. Multiply that across every single attack, though, and you start to add up to combats taking minutes longer than they used to. That's bad.
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Post by vagrant »

Would it be better if Dodge subtracted from the result of the attack roll then instead of the attack modifier? That way the GM (who should have the stats in front of him and written out) can do the math quickly and tell you the result?

I'll run the numbers for that and see if it gives me the results I want.
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

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Post by Username17 »

vagrant wrote:Would it be better if Dodge subtracted from the result of the attack roll then instead of the attack modifier? That way the GM (who should have the stats in front of him and written out) can do the math quickly and tell you the result?

I'll run the numbers for that and see if it gives me the results I want.
Why is Dodge not added to your Armor Class? Jesus fuck.

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Post by vagrant »

Yeah, dodge pretty much scales equally with a proficiency bonus from attack, which makes the stat worthless.

I would have liked to have static defences penalize the attack directly, but meh, it's pretty much worthless when I look at how it works. Off into the bin!

I suppose I'll just use 3.5 AB vs AC then, but something about that always bothered me. I should poke around and figure out what, but otherwise just going with 3.5e combat seems fine.

EDIT: I think I realise what I don't like about 3.5e combat: you miss far too much. At lower levels it's a missfest, at higher levels AC values are pretty much meaningless since casters are using SoDs anyway. Not to mention I'd like to see a mechnical difference between some dude in plate armour and some dude who wears leather armour but jumps around a bunch.
Last edited by vagrant on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by vagrant »

How about instead:

Attack = attack stat (str for melee, dex for ranged, int, wis, cha depending on caster for spells)+proficiency+bab

Dodge = level+4 (was gonna make it a skill, but everyone is just going to cap it anyway so there's no real point.)

Defense = 10+int+dex+dodge

Armour = natural+worn+magic

Damage Bonus = 1.5xattack stat+2xproficiency+enhancement

Formula: Attack vs Defense, if Damage Bonus<Armour, no damage, otherwise damage is damage roll - armour.

That gives me more the to-hit percentages I'm looking for.
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

-DrPraetor
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Post by Krusk »

FrankTrollman wrote: Why is Dodge not added to your Armor Class? Jesus fuck.
Why make it more complicated?

Also, how about this. AC = 5 + Dex + Stuff. instead of 10+Dex+Stuff. Now people hit more. Its familiar, and pretty easy to impliment.
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Post by vagrant »

I want people to hit stuff more, not always hit stuff regardless. I get about 70%-80% with the rough numbers I'm using, which looks about what I'd like.
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

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Post by codeGlaze »

I've always been a fan of the idea of AC as DR and having a separate to-hit stat. Really,though, everyone having '4+lvl' in addition to their def stat seems extraneous. Bonuses should represent 'above and beyond'.


A super fast/dexterous fighter would get a dodge/mobility bonus. If you want to give everyone an inflated defense as they rise in level then raise theif base defense per level. Defense = 5+lvl+stuff
Last edited by codeGlaze on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

Before you go too much farther, Vagrant, poke around Unearthed Arcana, it's basically a book full of knobs, dials and switches, and you might be able to find a combination that modifies D&D into something you like better.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by vagrant »

Picked up Unearthed Arcana today - is there anything I should look into specifically? I'm slightly leery of 3.5 splatbooks (mostly cause a good majority are shit.)
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

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Post by Prak »

Armour as Damage Reduction or Damage Conversion, Spell Points, Injury, Magic Rating, and incantation, just looking at the SRD's list. There might be other things fitting your plans.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Silly Humans

Post by Dzumr Boneclaw »

Would you people quit arguing about whether Eberron is pre or post Industrial Revolution?

My epic-tier goblin artificer is about to invent the internal combustion engine and resolve this issue once and for all.

Dhakaan shall be reborn as an industrial superpower!

:viking: :bash: :razz:
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Post by Schleiermacher »

...they did. Five months ago. How did you even find this thread?
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Post by Endovior »

Image
FrankTrollman wrote:We had a history and maps and fucking civilization, and there were countries and cities and kingdoms. But then the spell plague came and fucked up the landscape and now there are mountains where there didn't used to be and dragons with boobs and no one has the slightest idea of what's going on. And now there are like monsters everywhere and shit.
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Post by vagrant »

Eberron is explicitly Renaissance era with magitech. Thing is, once I realised that (herpaderp), I realised I didn't want Renaissance, I want post-WW1 magicpunk. That means I have been in fact working on the system, but I'm focusing on crafting a new magic punk setting to go along with my (erroneous) previous notions of Eberrons tech level.
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Post by codeGlaze »

Image
Arise, chicken. Chicken, arise.
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