Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Wiseman]

Don't know if this was covered before but:

Me (reading the PFSRD): Oh sweet! A fly skill! This is gonna be awesome!

Note that this skill does not give you the ability to fly.

And like that you've lost me...

[Antariuk]

More importantly, how is a Fighter/Cleric hybrid class conceptually distinct from a cleric?

A Cleric shouldn't have any martial ability at all.

Of course that hasn't been the case in D&D. But Cleric getting heavy armor, good hp, decent attack bonus, great saves, and self buffs that are exclusive to them that make them awesome are all things that just shouldn't be.

Those should be the realm of the Paladin.

This has been covered before a thousand times, but the D&D's cliché cleric is a child of necessity - nobody wants to play a healbot if it comes with the wizard's disadvantages. But since most players do not play a cleric to its full advantage, or become even aware of its potential power, all those nice features just ensure that clerics are still around.

---

On a different note, I need to vent about difficulty in official modules. I have played in some APs and finishes several official modules now, and in retrospect I remember encounters/puzzles mostly being either boring or way too hard. Currently I'm in a Serpent Skull round, and the GM basically re-wrote half of every book we played through so far.

Especially when Azlanti stuff is involved, someone at Paizo seems to be like: "This adventure is for what, level 6? Make that a DC 40 check to activate the eldritch machine!" Of course, other times it's the complete opposite - DC 15 Survival checks are only interesting for so long.

Also, I believe clerics with the luck domain are the most broken thing ever (without trying). I have one in my game, and a friend plays one in the Serpent Skull game, and its just crazy awesome sauce. Re-roll every d20 roll for an entire round? Yes please, all the f**** time?

[Voss]

Which is the big problem, of course. Systems with a lot of classes aren't necessarily bad, but the classes need to be distinct, which none of these are. Hell, a lot of the basic classes aren't distinct enough to keep around, since you can just build 'wilderness stabby guy' out of a half-dozen classes.

So how would PF look with distinct classes in your mind?

Well, it wouldn't have started out with the 3.x default classes then loaded a bunch of extra shit on the good ones, then dumped hybrid casters on top of the few viable non-magic classes from the default classes (alchemist and summoner in particular). But out of the 21 existing ones, the following could have been reduced significantly:

fighter--samurai-- cavalier
rogue--ninja--alchemist--bard
paladin-- cleric--druid--oracle--inquisitor
wizard--sorcerer--witch

There is just too much overlap, with a bare flavor schticks barely justifying their existence. The first set is pretty much just cultural baggage, and the last set are honestly synonyms. Barbarian and ranger are probably redundant as well, squeezed somewhere between rogue and fighter, and the archetypes in particular make this extra pointless. Fighters can set a feat on fire for wilderness skills, don't care.

[erik]

This has been covered before a thousand times, but the D&D's cliché cleric is a child of necessity - nobody wants to play a healbot if it comes with the wizard's disadvantages. But since most players do not play a cleric to its full advantage, or become even aware of its potential power, all those nice features just ensure that clerics are still around.

Between combats healing is solvable by any character, potions and wands being available and what-not. So long as you have that then you really don't need in-combat healing as a necessity.

But still, there's no point in having both a cleric and a paladin if you give them the same tools, or worse, give one all the tools and another just a partial set. If you want a heal bot then give either them a support schtick and call em a priest (cleric is such a shitty name), or give them a beat stick and call em a paladin.

[hogarth]

A Cleric shouldn't have any martial ability at all.


Of course that hasn't been the case in D&D. But Cleric getting heavy armor, good hp, decent attack bonus, great saves, and self buffs that are exclusive to them that make them awesome are all things that just shouldn't be.

For what it's worth (i.e., nothing), Pathfinder clerics don't get heavy armor proficiency.

[hogarth]

On a different note, I need to vent about difficulty in official modules. I have played in some APs and finishes several official modules now, and in retrospect I remember encounters/puzzles mostly being either boring or way too hard.

That's the problem with hiring a bunch of freelancers: different authors have wildly different ideas as to how difficult a module should be, CR system notwithstanding.

Also, I believe clerics with the luck domain are the most broken thing ever (without trying). I have one in my game, and a friend plays one in the Serpent Skull game, and its just crazy awesome sauce. Re-roll every d20 roll for an entire round? Yes please, all the f**** time?

How many d20 rolls are your PCs making in a round that makes it worthwhile for a cleric to spend each round casting that buff?

[Antariuk]

On a different note, I need to vent about difficulty in official modules. I have played in some APs and finishes several official modules now, and in retrospect I remember encounters/puzzles mostly being either boring or way too hard.

That's the problem with hiring a bunch of freelancers: different authors have wildly different ideas as to how difficult a module should be, CR system notwithstanding.

Also, I believe clerics with the luck domain are the most broken thing ever (without trying). I have one in my game, and a friend plays one in the Serpent Skull game, and its just crazy awesome sauce. Re-roll every d20 roll for an entire round? Yes please, all the f**** time?

How many d20 rolls are your PCs making in a round that makes it worthwhile for a cleric to spend each round casting that buff?

A noteworthy, recent event would be our group's (7th level) ambush on three manticores. I casted haste on the whole party and the cleric touched the main archer, which resulted in two manticores never even getting near us. Since the archer fired 5 arrows each round, lots of dice where being rolled (in hope for a crit).

Compared to 1st-level domain features like "touch attack for 1 round of status effect" or "grant bonus of 1/2 your level", the luck domain is the best support domain printed by far.

[icyshadowlord]

I'm amusing myself about how the old argument of Pathfinder being more balanced than 3.5 seems to have died a painful death. Maybe its because I rarely frequent d20-related gaming boards these days, but I got the impression that even hardocre Paizo fans learned their lesson of wizard>fighter somewhere between the Second Darkness AP and Ultimate Campaign

Amusingly enough, it seems that some people still think that Pathfinder is more balanced. Maybe they just decided to quiet down now that there's too much evidence against their arguments?

[icyshadowlord]

By the way, any news on that Mythic ruleset?

Is it as bad as the Epic Level Handbook, or is it even worse?

[Antariuk]

Haven't really read through it, but it's a mixed bag. Certainly more sane than ELH tough, if that is any endorsement.

The advantage of Paizo's approach is that mythic ranks can be applied in pre-epic levels, even at 1st level if the MC feels like it. They run parallel to normal class progression and increase book-keeping quite a bit, very much like templates. MA introduces a character power source called Mythic Power (Su), which is 3 + your tier times two, used to fuel some of the powers you get.

There are six mythic paths (classes) you can choose from, covering the classic roles you expect. Each path lets you choose an ability each rank from a list, very much like rogue talents. There is also a universal talent list, so you get a lot of options. In addition, mythic feats and mythic spells and mythic monsters.

As you'd expect, casters get powers to rule supreme, and melees get bonuses to things. To be fair, there are few abilities where you get the impression that Paizo tried really hard to give the sword guy something cool, but yeah.
For example there is a 1st-rank Champion power called Aerial Assault, where you spend one power point to make a charge into the air. You make an Acrobatics check and add 10 ft. per mythic rank you have. you deal extra damage equal to falling damage of the height, but suffer not falling damage yourself. Sounds cool?
Well, Archmages can spend one point to re-cast any spell and non-mythic targets must roll twice for the lower result (that is an inherent feature all Archmages have), or they select a 1st-rank ability to automatically succeed on all concentration checks save for their highest spell level.

This what stuck with me just flipping through, so maybe there is something cool for non-casters buried in the book.

[magnuskn]

Just wanted to quote Jim Butcher here from his interview with Aint It Cool News:

""So I started to run a D&D game, except D&D isn’t D&D anymore because now they’re into the 4th Edition thing and it’s a cool game and all, but it’s not D&D. So I went out and grabbed Pathfinder."

And another one:

"But yeah, I did the playtest for D&D 4th Edition, I wrote a two-word review. “New Coke” and sent it in to them. I hoped that would get through, but it didn’t seem to."

I know Pathfinder isn't very well liked around here, but to me this feel immensely satisfying. The Dresden Files are very well written books and Butcher has come off as a really nice guy in every interview I've seen of him, so I put some weight on his opinions.

Well, OTOH he is looking forward to 5E. It'll be interesting how he feels about it after its release, I hope somebody asks him next year.

[Rawbeard]

Pathfinder has no level adjustment, that's all I want.

[erik]

I know Pathfinder isn't very well liked around here, but to me this feel immensely satisfying.

It's not well liked, not because it is horrifically bad, but because despite standing upon the shoulders of giants they were unable to affect overall improvements.

It's overall not significantly improved from 3.5. Just different often changed for the sake of change only. Which was the same problem I had with 3.5 vs. 3e.

[ishy]

So my group wants to start up a skulls & shackles campaign soon.
Allowed sources (PF only): PHB, APG, UM, UCombat, the boon companion feat and perhaps inner sea guide.
Was thinking of starting with a lvl 1 druid.

Preferably without spoilers: is there anything / any specific bullshit I need to know about that adventure path?
Am I right in assuming the ship to ship and mass ship-warfare systems are fucked?
Is it any fun?

[Cyberzombie]

This what stuck with me just flipping through, so maybe there is something cool for non-casters buried in the book.

I doubt it. If Pathfinder has shown anything, it's an utter hatred of non-casters. I'm honestly not sure why they don't bite the bullet and make Magus and Vanguard the warrior classes and get rid of all the garbage non-casters entirely.

Either that or at the very least start creating some monsters that are caster hosers to balance out all the fighter hoser monsters.

[hogarth]

I know Pathfinder isn't very well liked around here, but to me this feel immensely satisfying.

It's not well liked, not because it is horrifically bad, but because despite standing upon the shoulders of giants they were unable to affect overall improvements.

It's overall not significantly improved from 3.5. Just different often changed for the sake of change only. Which was the same problem I had with 3.5 vs. 3e.

Indeed, the exact same criticisms used to be levelled against 3.5E D&D that are now being levelled against Pathfinder (except for "Pathfinder isn't an improvement over 3.5!", of course).

[Antariuk]

I would add "Pathfinder is more complicated" on top of that.
Not only because of the constant state of irritation for all folks who know 3.5 rules from the top off their heads, but also because the sheer amount of character building options is reaching a critical mass. Seriously, if someone says "Pathfinder it is, build away, all Paizo materials are in" you have a problem because even just going though all that shit will take days. Not to mention that archetypes need to be valued in context of the related class, forcing you to flip back and forth to pick out the gems from the pile.

Coming back to Mythic Adventures, does anyone know if they will include that into the PRD? Because if they do, holy shit would I love to see anyone ever making a balance argument about Pathfinder ever again. Someone should really review that thing in detail, so other people can share the experience.

[magnuskn]

Getting mythic levels is a completely optional process, so I don't see how the rules would impact any discussions on balance of the main game.

Not that I'd even try to make an argument that the main game is balanced, but at least you can play it well enough if you don't actively try to break the game.

[Rawbeard]

I managed to stumble onto the Paizo boards for reasons I will not admit to and found something... bizarre. It basically came down to "Pathfinder is balanced, since Turbine made DDO using the 3.5 ruleset and MMO and P&P have the same goals and limitations. By having more wealth you break the game far more than by being a wizard".

I wish I could make that up and it's not even far from what was actually said over several posts.

I managed to walk away from that, but it still burned parts of my brain away I might need in the future. Holy crap, those people are weird.

[Voss]

I would add "Pathfinder is more complicated" on top of that.
Not only because of the constant state of irritation for all folks who know 3.5 rules from the top off their heads, but also because the sheer amount of character building options is reaching a critical mass. Seriously, if someone says "Pathfinder it is, build away, all Paizo materials are in" you have a problem because even just going though all that shit will take days. Not to mention that archetypes need to be valued in context of the related class, forcing you to flip back and forth to pick out the gems from the pile.

I'll agree with that. They ratcheted dumpster diving up to the next level: landfill diving. And so much is outright terrible filler.

And while it should, in theory, be easy to discard all the trash, by sheer volume it takes a long time.

It also (and more problematically) makes groups more difficult. Trying to figure out what everyone does isn't solvable by class anymore. 'What do you do?' needs a long as explanation for everyone, as you need to know alternate class features, archetypes, bizarre race features and all sorts of little shit, to find out how can do what, who can find traps, and who exactly sunk themselves as a nigh-useless meatshield, even if they think they grabbed the 'cool stuff.'

[GâtFromKI]

Pathfinder is disliked because every splatbook is more full of shit than the previous one. And not only because of balance or some other abstract concept: they are poorly written and never playtested. Seriously, there are archetypes which have more errata than their whole archetype description, archetypes that require 30 rolls per round, or examples of "how the rule works" that are contradicted by Paizo's staff. And random shit with random prerequisites that prevent any character from doing mundane stuff, feats that are worse at their job than "not using the feat", etc.

The mythic playtest is also full of shit: they say it introduces a new way of playing the game, but it only add some weird multiclassing stuff and new feats. Like any other splat. I guess the final version isn't better.

Even if you weren't in the haterz group when the CRB was printed, it's really hard to like Pathfinder now.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I actually find the content explosion to be an improvement over the way 3.5 handled it. Now that all the mechanics are accessible in one place, I don't have to dig through 5 different pdfs to figure out what someone's character does.

I consider myself a Pathfinder fan primarily because of d20pfsrd.com

[Antariuk]

I actually find the content explosion to be an improvement over the way 3.5 handled it. Now that all the mechanics are accessible in one place, I don't have to dig through 5 different pdfs to figure out what someone's character does.

I consider myself a Pathfinder fan primarily because of d20pfsrd.com

Well that site has its own problem - accessibility. Its really nice that they went to all the rouble of collecting the free stuff, but its impossible to select what you want to see. And its all in there, every single piece from every module, companion, adventure path, you name it. So when you MC says: "CRB, Ultimate Magic, and ISWG only", good luck figuring out your content. I really hope they'll do an upgrade on the sitemap so you can select content sources.

[hogarth]

This seems like a weird idea -- turning an adventure path into an audiobook. Is there really an audience for that?

[Guyr Adamantine]

This seems like a weird idea -- turning an adventure path into an audiobook. Is there really an audience for that?

Now they can share their shitty writing with blind people. Hurray?