Beginning Shadowrunner

[virgil]

I'm tempted to run a Shadowrun (4th edition) campaign for my players, and I was seeking advice/opinions on whether I should try this out.

[Catharz]

Shadowrun for a newbie
Shadowrun - the utopia
Shadowrun what-ifs
Shadowrun 4e
Shadowrun character suggestions

Hopefully that's a good start. IIRC there are some more good threads about Frank's campaign, which is apparently so good that it reads like a novel.

[virgil]

As someone wanting to experience the full range of AR/VR, yet avoiding any Essence loss, I assume trodes are basically mesh hats without any physically intrusive elments but allow even full Matrix immersion; or is there some kind of limitation because you don't have a datajack in the base of your skull?

Also, I'm having trouble figuring out what areas of the world that the AAA corps have extraterritoriality. Are there countries, cities, neighborhoods?

[Username17]

Trodes are indeed mesh yarmulkes. They are delicate instruments and if you shake them or set them on fire they stop working, so actually getting yourself a data jack for the purpose of using VR is a good deal for a shadowrunner. Even a Hacker Adept probably wants to get a datajack and just soak the essence loss.

Any of the AAA megacorps are extraterritorial on every facility that they operate. Essentially, every Aztechnology facility is an Aztechnology Embassy. It follows AZT law, it is policed by AZT soldiers, and so on and so forth. This means that when you're in StufferShack or Taco Temple you are technically not in the United Canadian and American States - you're in Aztechnology Corporate Property.

AA corporations like Debeers-Universal Omnitech are not extraterritorial, but like Transneft in today's Russian Federation they have a lot of concessions from many of the countries that they operate in which allow them to operate private armies.

-Username17

[virgil]

Another question for Shadowrun; is your augmented attribute maximum (1.5 x natural rating), or (1.5 x maximum rating). AKA, I want to use Combat Sense to improve the Reaction of a human with a base of 2 Reaction. Will his augmented reaction cap out at 3 or 9?

Also, is there a point in not only using buff spells like Increase Reflexes at Force 1, so as to minimize drain?

[Catharz]

1185219316[/unixtime]]
Also, is there a point in not only using buff spells like Increase Reflexes at Force 1, so as to minimize drain?

You take penalties for every spell you're sustaining, additional uses of the same buff don't really stack, and a Force 1 Increase Reflexes only gives one extra initiative pass.

On the other hand, if you're using Edge you may want to cast spells at a low Force because you can use them in a lower rating sustaining focus.

[Username17]

Spell Force caps the number of hits you can take advantage of from a spell. So if you want a four hit spell, you want a four force spell.

And augmented caps are based on the natural maximum, not current total.

---

And personally, I modify caps heavily in my home game. It takes a long time for people to notice, but it's annoying when it finally comes up.

-Username17

[endersdouble]

I thought I'd chime in here--it looks like I'm hopefully (crosses fingers) going to get to play in an SR4 campaign this summer. This is the character I submitted, which the GM likes (flavor omitted for convenience--short version: ares corporate hotshot dropped in the shadows for unknown reasons having to do with Ares internal politics). Since I've never really played SR before, I was hoping some of y'all could look it over and tell me if I'm doing anything abysmally stupid or accidentally broken beyond belief, or whatever.

Apollo:

BOD 3
STR 2
AGI 5
REA 3
CHA 5
INT 2
LOG 5
WIL 4
EDG 2
ESS 6
MAG 6
Qualities:
Magician (Hermetic).
First Impression
In For Life (10 point disad; GM claims it existed in previous editions--no important mechanical effects for our purposes)
Bad Luck

Active Skills:
Spellcasting 5
Counterspelling 3
Conjuring Group 3
Astral Combat 2
Assensing 2
Firearms Group 2
Automatics 5
Influence Skill Group 4
Computer 1
Pilot Ground 1

Knowledge skills
Fine cuisine 4
Ares internal politics 4
English N
German 4
Urban Brawl 2
Magical Theory 4
Opera 2
Techno 5

Contacts: Fixer (Loyalty 1, Connection 3)

One rating 4 fake SIN (with rating 4 licenses for firearms and spellcasting)

Known spells:
Lightning Bolt
Mind probe
Increase reflexes
Improved invisibility
Mob Control
Influence
Stunbolt
Control Thoughts
Levitate

Gear:
Force 6 Lodge (in his apartment)
Force 4 Sustaining Focus
Force 4 Spellcasting Focus
Ares Alpha (airburst link, Gas-vent 3. 2 clips HPDS, 1 clip EX-Explosive. 1 clip HE grenades.)
Ares Predator IV (hidden arm slide, silencer. 2 clips HPDS ammo.)
Knife
Urban Explorer Jumpsuit
Suzuki Mirage motorcycle.
Sunglasses with built in flash compensation, image link, smartlink
Sony Emperor commlink with Renraku Ichi OS, hotsim module, subvocal mike
1 yr. Gold Docwagon contract
2 months Middle lifestyle

The character is built to 500 points. I'm aware I break the availability limit--in this case, for flavor reasons, the GM is OK with it. What I'd like to do mechanically is be an effective magician, who's decent with guns as a backup skill, and can also be a good party face. Should this work?

Also, how are my spell choices? I found it a little hard to determine what was good and what isn't just reading them. Also, I took a sustaining focus because it seemed good with Increase Reflexes or Imp. Invisibility--for some reason, this made me feel a little dirty; is such a focus totally broken or am I overestimating its impact? Any other obvious problems?

Thanks.

[mean_liar]

If you have access to Street Magic, I highly recommend revamping your spell list.

For example, in SR4 there's little point in expecting to cast spells on all your mates since the -2 dice penalty affects everything you do, which is a massive unmitigated crippling effect in SR4 (not so much in SR3).

So, make most of your personal spells, Personal. Its a -2 modifier to the Drain code. At a minimum you can make them Limited (affects willing targets only) for -1. Additionally, make them Touch range if you can for an additional -2 adjustment. That makes an easy -4 Drain code adjustment to any and all buffs you want to cast.

It'll really make that Force 4 Increase Reflexes spell handy.

Custom-designing spells is where the mage really gets power in SR. Don't pass up that opportunity.

For example, your Improved Invisibility spell affects only one sense. Making it Multi-sense increases Drain by +2... but that's going to be canceled by the -2 from Personal and -2 from Touch. You end up with a spell that's easier to cast than the regular Improved Invisibility, but that not only makes you invisible, it also makes you silent (use your heaviest machine gun, it doesn't matter), scentless (fooling animals), and actually override senses of touch - with enough successes to fool machines, you can stomp on a pressure sensor and not set it off.

Another example is a custom spell that overrides security systems, making you a superuser capable of opening a door or deactivating a security element without triggering any alarms provided you can touch an interface point with the system. You're facing off against the Object Threshold of 4 in most cases, but Restricted Target (only machines), Touch range, and a Physical Manipulation make it an adjusted -2 Drain code spell. You can play with the basic idea here - make it LOS so that you control any security system that you can see - but then it becomes a +0 Drain code (not much worse, really). The real trick with this one is beating the Threshold.

Having Influence, Control Thoughts and Mob Control is probably one trick too many.

I question Stunbolt. Why do you have this?

There are other tricks too, like coming up with a custom Tradition that allows you access to Guidance and Task spirits as summonables spirits, since Guidance spirits can use Divination and Task spirits can have any single Technical or Physical skill you give them. Having access to Guidance spirits basically means you never have to take Divination metamagic or the silly-ass skills required to make it work, you can just whip up a spirit to do all the heavy lifting for you; pre-'run Divination is always a nice edge to have. Ditto for Task spirits being ultra-useful - if you can summon them, you basically have access to every Technical skill you could ever want, at Force *2 dice.

[virgil]

A concise question might be the following...how do I reconcile the current rules for the Matrix with Shadowrun? It feels like I'm running into contradictions here and there; such as hackers that only use skill (logic attribute be damned) and then just buy the biggest programs they can find (stock models just plain don't exist to players), technomancers can't hack because of the complex forms limitations (and seem to have major difficulty having a secondary role), identity theft seems to be stupidly easy, node system/response caps are weird (either you auto-hack low-end nodes with your XXL-commlink or you hack mainframes from your 100 nuyen commlink)...

Here are some tentative house rules, and not just the Matrix...
* Elf & Orc cost 25BP
* Allow skill group rating to stack with skill rating (usual caps in place)
* Single skills cost 3BP per rating, groups at 7BP
* Programs are binary equipment (lack of it inflicts a -4 penalty), making all hacking tests follow the Attribute + Skill paradigm
** Use Response or System, as appropriate, for when a program rating is required (such as using an attack program)
* Agents use Pilot + System for matrix tests (and can be loaded with programs to do their respective jobs)
* Complex Forms are spells learned, working as programs, at 3BP apiece
* Living Persona's System = Resonance (not Logic) & Matrix tests replace Logic with Resonance
* Threading's increases to CF work as straight bonuses to use of said program
* Threading DV does physical if greater than half Resonance (as per casting)

This is a bit more significant, and more than a number here or there...
* Because bandwith is deemed 'enough', there does not exist a perceptible limit on how many items can attempt to access a node. This makes DoS attacks only viable for already comprimised systems, which is done through the Crash action.

* Agents/programs acting in tandem simply act as one unit (the best one) without any perceptible bonus to rolls. The only benefit by spreading your Agent seed across the Matrix is that it will be harder to stamp them out.

* It is assumed that in the standard Matrix, a hacker will access and utilize every piece of computing power he can get his hands on (including light switches and teapots). If in an active zone with devices abounding, you can give yourself a +2 bonus to Matrix tests, at the expense of providing an equal bonus anyone trying to track you or notice you while you actively use this technique (once you stop, it's assumed you hide your trail to negate the bonus). If you're in a Matrix dead zone or an area with limited access to wireless devices, you suffer a -2 penalty to Matrix tests because of the lack of your resources to exploit.


Interestingly enough, half of my original notes for house rules regarding the Matrix were nearly identical to Moon-Hawk's, and have since tailored the list in response to reading his work.

[Username17]

For example, in SR4 there's little point in expecting to cast spells on all your mates since the -2 dice penalty affects everything you do, which is a massive unmitigated crippling effect in SR4 (not so much in SR3).

I disagree. It is a very important trick to be able to summon Spirits of Man with the Innate Spell power to toss down buff or cloak spells and maintian them on people. That's not even possible if you make those spells Personal.

such as hackers that only use skill (logic attribute be damned) and then just buy the biggest programs they can find (stock models just plain don't exist to players), technomancers can't hack because of the complex forms limitations (and seem to have major difficulty having a secondary role)

The best solution I can come up with these twin and connected problems is to combine the contradictory rules for dicepools on page 124, 208, and 223 so that your dicepool on all Hacking Tests is Logic + Hacking + Equipment (Program). This makes Logic and Programs both important, and allows Technomancers to do stuff at all when they don't have Complex Forms.

identity theft seems to be stupidly easy,

It's also impossibly difficult though, because identity is stored in distributed databases throughout the world and you couldn't possibly hack them all. Identity theft of any kind is always a matter of time. A better forgery will last longer,k but it will always collapse eventually.

Here are some tentative house rules, and not just the Matrix...

• Elf & Orc cost 25BP
  
  - Sure.
  
  
• Allow skill group rating to stack with skill rating (usual caps in place)
  
  As long as you're using a BP for Karma system like I am this is fine. I do it myself (I even allow people to purchase skills into skill groups for the BP difference).
  
  
• Single skills cost 3BP per rating, groups at 7BP
  
  That's a weird cost. I use 2 and 5.
  
  
• Programs are binary equipment (lack of it inflicts a -4 penalty), making all hacking tests follow the Attribute + Skill paradigm
  
  That's certainly one way to do it - but you'll need to do something about Attack programs and other Threshold setting programs.
  
  
• Use Response or System, as appropriate, for when a program rating is required (such as using an attack program)
  
  OK.
  
  
• Agents use Pilot + System for matrix tests (and can be loaded with programs to do their respective jobs)
  
  Why not double Pilot (limited by System) like normal? Do Rating 1 Agents need to be awesome when run from decent Commlinks?
  
  
• Complex Forms are spells learned, working as programs, at 3BP apiece
  
  This is a no-brainer.
  
  
• Living Persona's System = Resonance (not Logic) & Matrix tests replace Logic with Resonance
  
  I don't undersand the motivation here.
  
  
• Threading's increases to CF work as straight bonuses to use of said program
  
  OK.
  
  
• Threading DV does physical if greater than half Resonance (as per casting)
  
  That's not how Casting works.
  

-Username17

[virgil]

The 3/7 cost for skills was a compromise between full cost and half cost.

Hmm, mistaken on the threading DV, my bad. I had considered using double Pilot (capped at double System) originally, but I can't honestly remember what made me change my mind.

As for the motivation for the Technomancer's change to limit use of Logic to Resonance, it was an attempt to not have as many stats dedicated towards doing his job, so that it might free up a bit more BP towards being able to do other things.

[virgil]

And does your BP for Karma mean that you turn all of your BP into Karma and build your character using the Character Improvement Table on p264? Because if so, wouldn't you need to give characters more than 400 Karma to still make the same characters they used to be able to?

[Username17]

Quite the opposite, I hand out additional BP rather than give people Karma during play.

Serbitar has a Karma-based chargen system that works OK if you want to go that way. Ultimately though I feel that you have to do one or the other. Karma costs are not transitive with BP costs and that's unbalanced if you use both systems concurrently.

-Username17

[virgil]

And are there other aspects of gameplay that have these kind of 'hiccups' in the rules?

[Username17]

1185482703[/unixtime]]And are there other aspects of gameplay that have these kind of 'hiccups' in the rules?

• The lifting and carrying rules are non-functional. You cannot have a carrying limit that is linear in nature, because actual examples of animals and humans don't fit on the same scale as one another. If strength is to mean anything, it has to represent an exponential increase in one's ability to carry shit (strength 8 is supposed to be fvcking horse strength!)
  
  
• The Toxins are... crazy lethal. Even the "stun" poisons. I suggest handling them like the Diseases in Augmentation - I am much happier with that system (which is why it looks the way it does).
  
  
• I suggest using the less random drain rule from Street Magic (again, this is why it's in there).
  
  
• At no time should you even consider using the sustaining penalties for Bound Spirits optional rule as it is completely fvcked.
  
  
• Cyberlimbs are shit on shit. They shouldn't even have a Body rating - they should just give you damage resistance bonuses. And they shouldn't have capacity limits. And they should start with Strength scores that are racially appropriate if you are an Ork or Troll.

-Username17

[Modesitt]

1185071020[/unixtime]]I'm tempted to run a Shadowrun (4th edition) campaign for my players, and I was seeking advice/opinions on whether I should try this out.

Even moreso than in D&D, the players MUST communicate with the GM and each other if anyone is to have fun.

GM A expects EXTREMELY detailed plans. You are expected to go on several mini-runs before the run itself in order to score data you'll need to succeed. If you leave so much as a single hair, drop of blood, or fingerprint in the general area of a run, all of your bank accounts will be closed, your face will be on the evening news with a substantial reward if you are caught dead or alive, and a ritual team will kill you in your sleep.

GM B doesn't really require plans. He's OK with a plan that goes something like "Ok, the security guards are only armed with pistols. Let's just bring shotguns and SMGs so we don't escalate it too much. If the run goes bad, everybody should meet up at the Stuffer Shack thataway. Everybody ready? Ok! Let's go!" If you get shot, well, ok, you get shot. He expects you'll get away, get your money, and do the next run. He gets irritable if you spend too much time planning runs.

If you're the type that enjoys GM B's style but you're in GM A's game, no-one is going to have any fun.

Equally important is the Evil Quotient. If your GM thinks shadowrunners should all be willing to kill their own mother for the right price, you're not going to have any fun if you're playing a peace-loving doctor who just runs so he can afford to operate his free clinic in the Barrens. If another character thinks killing baby's is OK and your char disagrees heartily, someone's going to need to reroll.

[ckafrica]

Frank, is there a website that has a compiled houserules for SR4? I hate foraging through the internet if someone else has the info

Thanks