Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Corsair114]

"Surprise, blizzard!" accompanied by "Rocks are falling, start everybody saving or dying" seems somewhat classic, though perhaps a touch more lethal than intended. You could start cranking up the temperature with the weather control machine to cause sudden flash floods from melting snowpacks then whip up a lightning storm to start zapping puddles players might be standing in that also happen to be connected to tree roots.

[Antariuk]

Since the power site seems to have an aerial theme, incorporate it into the dungeon as well. Flying critters, lots of them (place a colony of darkmantles somewhere, they are always fun). Also, flying rocks with a deep chasm beyond, so you can have an Avatar moment. Strond winds in some tunnels, low gravity in others.

[Slade]

I will take any odds, truly long insane odds that the Swashbuckler will be unusable ass. Come on people take hundred to one odds on it. You can send me money over paypal.

Fighter is bad, Gunslinger is unusably bad, Grit is garbage. Also if anyone was worried that a Fighter/Gunslinger would be able to use guns they assure us that they have no proficiency with guns. What??? I have aids now.

So I send you a dollar or you will send me a hundred. I can take that bet: I can spare to lose a dollar.

What if they get a Parry ability like Crane wing/Deflect Arrow: So just auto block any attack(rays, weapons, etc) that would hit. Get Crane Wing and you'll block 2/rd.
Still not great past 11th level, but till then decent.

Y

If you can convince Mister Cavern to let your Cleric of Asmodeus to get his splatbook bonus of summoning hellhounds 2 spell levels early, that's definitely powerful, but it relies on too much MC fiat to be a sure thing.

It is Priest not Cleric.
Meaning Wizards can benefit as well (put it in your background).

Weird thing about Summoner they never learn SM 3, they learn SM 4 instead.

[ishy]

How do those alternate summons work anyway?
It was my understanding that a wizard knows how the spell works thus can summon any monster it damn well pleases, so how do new options if you worship god X work / make sense?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Pathfinder was padding pagecount in their adventures by writing up in-depth looks at various deities. So people were more likely to care about them, the dev team included mechanical bonuses you could get from the god.

[magnuskn]

How do those alternate summons work anyway?
It was my understanding that a wizard knows how the spell works thus can summon any monster it damn well pleases, so how do new options if you worship god X work / make sense?

You can normally only summon monsters on the list provided in the CRB when using any Summon Monster spell. Certain deities give a few more options, pending GM approval, and Summon Good Monster gives an (IMO) much better list than the normal one for good characters and additionally the Die Hard feat to the summoned creatures. And, yes, we already had clarification that Die Hard would work as intended with the monsters summoned on that list, although by a RAW reading they should disappear at 0 HP.

[Avoraciopoctules]

It might be a little suboptimal, but I really want to play a Summoner that exploits some of these new lists of creatures. All I've had a chance to try so far was a low-level guy who insta-gibbed enemies with a charging cat eidolon.

There are so many things you could do with 3 shadow demons that stick around for 10+ minutes or even 1 deva. Maybe I can tag in a new PC once one of the games I'm playing in hits level 10.

[Avoraciopoctules]

How liberally would you interpret a djinni's ability to create vegetable matter? I've seen them make cake frosting in adventurer modules already, does that mean they can make plant-based drugs? Can a mage call up a genie just to ask it for 9 cubic feet of refined pesh or cocaine?

Djinni already have an explicit power to summon booze, so it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

[Archmage Joda]

So, I know that it's suboptimal or not a very good option or whatever, but dangit, I wanna play a blaster mage ("blaster" as in throwing direct damage spells at monsters and such), but I don't know how to make it decent or good in the context of only pathfinder. How would I make good at blasting with only pathfinder material?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Let's look at Sorcerer...

Ifrit can take an option that gives an effective +2 CHA for sorcerer stuff on top of their racial +2. Humans can dramatically increase spells known through their racial favored class bonus...

Actually, lemme just skim a couple build guides:

Build 3: Tesla Coil
Race: Human, Bloodline: Draconic (Electricity), Archetype: Tattooed Sorcerer

1st level snapshot:
Ability Scores: 7 str/12 dex/14 con/14 int/9 wis/19 cha
Feats: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Burning Hands)
Spells: 1st level - Burning Hands, Mount, 0 level - Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Acid Splash, Light

6th level snapshot:
Ability Scores: 7 str/12 dex/14 con/14 int/9 wis/20 cha
Feats: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Lightning Bolt), Toughness, Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
Spells: 3rd level - Lightning Bolt, 2nd level - Burning Arc, Levitate, Glitterdust, Resist Energy(B), 1st level - Burning Hands, Mount, Vanish, Silent Image, Grease, Protection from Evil, Mage Armor(B)

12th level snapshot:
Ability Scores: 7
str/12 dex/14 con/14 int/9 wis/22 cha Feats: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Chain Lightning), Toughness, Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), Additional Traits, Improved Initiative, Dazing Spell, Empower Spell
Spells: 6th level - Chain Lightning, 5th level - Lightning Arc, Lesser Planar Binding, Magic Jar, Spell Resistance(B), 4th level - Ball Lightning, Black Tentacles, Confusion, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Ice, Fear(B), 3rd level - Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Slow, Chain of Perdition, Fly(B), 2nd level - Burning Arc, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Stone Call, Haunting Mist, Create Pit, Resist Energy(B), 1st level - Magic Missile, Mount, Vanish, Silent Image, Grease, Protection from Evil, Feather Fall, Mage Armor(B)

Notes: Yeah, manipulating reality and tricking people into doing your bidding is all well and good, but sometimes you just want to melt faces. This build is for face-melting. Period. No one does sustained damage like a sorcerer, that includes crazy trick wizard builds that dip crossblooded orc/draconic sorcerer. Sure Mr. Wizard can belt out a stronger chain lightning than you, but unless he filled all of his spell slots with chain lightning, there’s no way he can keep up with you all day. Then there’s the part where that final boss you’ve been fighting your way towards turns out to be a blue dragon, he spends the entire boss fight hiding in the corner while you switch to a different spell without batting an eye

There, how's that for a starting point? We have a blasty sorcerer chassis, is there anything you want that it can't do?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Here's another, longer one that apparently throws out lots of damage dice even early on:

Flaming Fingers - A pathfinder sorcerer build
I heard a comment the other day that sorcerers aren’t great till higher level, here is a little build to flip that around without losing a lot of diversity later.

Race: Human
Class: Sorcerer Archetypes - Tattooed Sorcerer (Inner Sea Magic), Cross Blooded (Ultimate Magic)
Abilities: str10 dex13 con14 int14 wis12 cha16
1 sor1 Bloodline: Orc (Orcs of Golarion)/Bloodline (Draconic(Red, Gold, or Brass))
1stlvl Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation); Human Feat: Spell Specialization (Burning Hands); Tattooed Sorcerer Feat: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation); Traits: Precocious Spellcaster (Taldor, Echoes of Glory): Light, Burning Hands; Magical Lineage: Burning Hands
2 sor2
3 sor3 Feat: Intensified Spell
4 sor4
5 sor5 Feat: spell focus (conjuration)
6 sor6
7 sor7 Feat: Augment Summoning
8 Sor8
9 Sor9 Feat: Expanded Arcana (2 3rd level spells)
I think 9 levels is enough. To give you an idea of what this character can do. She has 4 extra caster levels (from spell specialization, varisian tattoo, and precocious spellcaster) in burning hands at first level plus she gets +1 damage per die from Orc bloodline and +1 damage per die with fire spells from the Draconic bloodline (I like brass because it isn’t gold or red) so at 1st level she can cast a burning hands that does 5d4+10 damage. At 3rd level she gets the intensified spell feat so when casting intensified burning hands (no level adjustment because of magical lineage) she does 7d4+14 damage.
This build is not a 1 trick pony. Rather than making her a dedicated blaster I shifted her in the direction of conjuration at 5th level so in addition to being able to fry foes she can also summon minions and manipulate the battlefield.

Recommendations for this build:
Buy a copy of Adventurer’s armory and get familiar with the power component rules. Being able to use alchemist fire to set creatures on fire that fail their saves against your burning hands, fireball, and flaming sphere is a must.
Use the human favored class ability to get bonus spells known
Get a badger familiar as a tattooed familiar to offset the crossblooded will save penalty
Metamagic rods of lesser extended and lesser selective
I am leaving her pretty open so she can be customized as well. She uses a ton of build tricks so the ideas here can make a lot of different characters. Below I am including a sample stat block at 9th level, note that I balanced her ability scores, I did not optimize them. I believe she is much better this way but if you want you can always dump her strength or wisdom or both. I just don’t believe adding that kind of weakness buys you anything and makes for a pretty unrealistic, awkward character. I exported the build with Herolab which can sometimes have errors with crossblooded builds, make sure to build this character using this as a guide, copying the stat block might make a non society legal character.
FLAMING FINGERS CR 8
Female Human (Chelaxian) Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Tattooed Sorcerer) 9
CG Medium Humanoid (Human, Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision; Perception +3

DEFENSE

AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 56 (9d6+18)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +7
Immune fear

OFFENSE

Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3/20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (3/day), Enhanced Varisian Tattoo (Fireball) (1/day)
Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Tattooed Sorcerer) Spells Known (CL 9, +4 melee touch, +6 ranged touch):
4 (4/day) Fear (DC 17), Wall of Fire, Emergency Force Sphere
3 (7/day) Aqueous Orb (DC 17), Haste (DC 16), Fireball (DC 17), Summon Monster III, Fly (DC 16), Rain of Frogs, Sheet Lightning (DC 17)
2 (7/day) Create Pit (DC 16), Resist Energy (DC 15), Rage, Flaming Sphere (DC 16), Bull’s Strength (DC 15), Web (DC 16), Burning Arc (DC 16), Staggering Fall (DC 15)
1 (7/day) Magic Missile, Shield (DC 14), Mage Armor (DC 15), Mage Armor (DC 15), Burning Hands (DC 15), Burning Hands (DC 15), Grease (DC 15), Ear-Piercing Scream (DC 15)
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Read Magic (DC 13), Detect Poison, Ghost Sound (DC 13), Mending, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Message, Light, Scrivener’s Chant, Spark (DC 14)

STATISTICS

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 17
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Augment Summoning, Expanded Arcana: Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Tattooed Sorcerer), Intensified Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Burning Hands, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation
Traits Magical Lineage: Burning Hands, Precocious Spellcaster: Light, Burning Hands
Skills Bluff +15, Fly +14, Intimidate +15, Linguistics +11, Perception +3, Sense Motive +3, Use Magic Device +15
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Daemonic, Giant, Ignan, Infernal, Osiriani, Terran, Varisian
SQ +2 bonus on Will saves, Bloodline Tattoos (Ex), Create Spell Tattoo (1/day) (Su), Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su), Draconic: Brass Dragon (Fire), Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Familiar Tattoo (Su), Fearless (Ex), Orc, Share Spells with Familiar, Speak with Animals (Ex), Speak With Familiar (Ex)

SPECIAL ABILITIES

+2 bonus on Will saves You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm’s reach.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Bloodline Tattoos (Ex) Bloodline spells are cast at +1 caster level.
Create Spell Tattoo (1/day) (Su) As a standard action, create a spell tattoo on yourself or a willing recipient.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Draconic: Brass Dragon (Fire) +1 damage per die for [Fire] spells.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enhanced Varisian Tattoo: Fireball (1/day) (Sp) At 9th level, the tattooed sorcerer can pick any one spell she knows for which she has a Varisian Tattoo feat. This spell must be one that lacks focus components and costly material components. She can now use that spell as a spell-like ability once
Familiar Tattoo (Su) A tattooed sorcerer gains a familiar as an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to her sorcerer level. Her sorcerer levels stack with any wizard or witch levels she possesses when determining the powers of her familiar—this ability does not allow her to h
Fearless (Ex) At 3rd level, you gain a +4 bonus on saving throws made against fear and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, you lose your light sensitivity, gain immunity to fear, and your natural armor bonus increases to +2.
Immune to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magical Lineage: Burning Hands A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Orc Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.
Precocious Spellcaster: Light, Burning Hands Select one cantrip and one 1st-level spell; when you cast these spells, they function at one caster level higher than your actual caster level.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with similar animals to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Focus: Conjuration Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Focus: Evocation Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Specialization: Burning Hands Pick one spell and cast it as if you were higher level
Varisian Tattoo: Evocation Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.

[Avoraciopoctules]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-cl ... -commander

Looks like someone decided that the game needed a class that let you play Angel Summoner even more effectively.

This looks really good, but I'm not sure what feats I'd take with it.

[Voss]

It looks like it just hands you all the relevant feats anyway.

The handwave of 'Oh, its a divine class now' doesn't sit very well either.

[rasmuswagner]

It looks like it just hands you all the relevant feats anyway.

The handwave of 'Oh, its a divine class now' doesn't sit very well either.

It trades away the Eidolon completely in order to be a (much) improved Master Summoner.

But, you know, 3rd party publishers.

[Archmage Joda]

Here's another, longer one that apparently throws out lots of damage dice even early on:

Flaming Fingers - A pathfinder sorcerer build
I heard a comment the other day that sorcerers aren’t great till higher level, here is a little build to flip that around without losing a lot of diversity later.

Race: Human
Class: Sorcerer Archetypes - Tattooed Sorcerer (Inner Sea Magic), Cross Blooded (Ultimate Magic)
Abilities: str10 dex13 con14 int14 wis12 cha16
1 sor1 Bloodline: Orc (Orcs of Golarion)/Bloodline (Draconic(Red, Gold, or Brass))
1stlvl Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation); Human Feat: Spell Specialization (Burning Hands); Tattooed Sorcerer Feat: Varisian Tattoo (Evocation); Traits: Precocious Spellcaster (Taldor, Echoes of Glory): Light, Burning Hands; Magical Lineage: Burning Hands
2 sor2
3 sor3 Feat: Intensified Spell
4 sor4
5 sor5 Feat: spell focus (conjuration)
6 sor6
7 sor7 Feat: Augment Summoning
8 Sor8
9 Sor9 Feat: Expanded Arcana (2 3rd level spells)
I think 9 levels is enough. To give you an idea of what this character can do. She has 4 extra caster levels (from spell specialization, varisian tattoo, and precocious spellcaster) in burning hands at first level plus she gets +1 damage per die from Orc bloodline and +1 damage per die with fire spells from the Draconic bloodline (I like brass because it isn’t gold or red) so at 1st level she can cast a burning hands that does 5d4+10 damage. At 3rd level she gets the intensified spell feat so when casting intensified burning hands (no level adjustment because of magical lineage) she does 7d4+14 damage.
This build is not a 1 trick pony. Rather than making her a dedicated blaster I shifted her in the direction of conjuration at 5th level so in addition to being able to fry foes she can also summon minions and manipulate the battlefield.

Recommendations for this build:
Buy a copy of Adventurer’s armory and get familiar with the power component rules. Being able to use alchemist fire to set creatures on fire that fail their saves against your burning hands, fireball, and flaming sphere is a must.
Use the human favored class ability to get bonus spells known
Get a badger familiar as a tattooed familiar to offset the crossblooded will save penalty
Metamagic rods of lesser extended and lesser selective
I am leaving her pretty open so she can be customized as well. She uses a ton of build tricks so the ideas here can make a lot of different characters. Below I am including a sample stat block at 9th level, note that I balanced her ability scores, I did not optimize them. I believe she is much better this way but if you want you can always dump her strength or wisdom or both. I just don’t believe adding that kind of weakness buys you anything and makes for a pretty unrealistic, awkward character. I exported the build with Herolab which can sometimes have errors with crossblooded builds, make sure to build this character using this as a guide, copying the stat block might make a non society legal character.
FLAMING FINGERS CR 8
Female Human (Chelaxian) Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Tattooed Sorcerer) 9
CG Medium Humanoid (Human, Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision; Perception +3

DEFENSE

AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 56 (9d6+18)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +7
Immune fear

OFFENSE

Spd 30 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3/20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Dancing Lights (3/day), Enhanced Varisian Tattoo (Fireball) (1/day)
Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Tattooed Sorcerer) Spells Known (CL 9, +4 melee touch, +6 ranged touch):
4 (4/day) Fear (DC 17), Wall of Fire, Emergency Force Sphere
3 (7/day) Aqueous Orb (DC 17), Haste (DC 16), Fireball (DC 17), Summon Monster III, Fly (DC 16), Rain of Frogs, Sheet Lightning (DC 17)
2 (7/day) Create Pit (DC 16), Resist Energy (DC 15), Rage, Flaming Sphere (DC 16), Bull’s Strength (DC 15), Web (DC 16), Burning Arc (DC 16), Staggering Fall (DC 15)
1 (7/day) Magic Missile, Shield (DC 14), Mage Armor (DC 15), Mage Armor (DC 15), Burning Hands (DC 15), Burning Hands (DC 15), Grease (DC 15), Ear-Piercing Scream (DC 15)
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Read Magic (DC 13), Detect Poison, Ghost Sound (DC 13), Mending, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Message, Light, Scrivener’s Chant, Spark (DC 14)

STATISTICS

Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 17
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Augment Summoning, Expanded Arcana: Sorcerer (Crossblooded, Tattooed Sorcerer), Intensified Spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Burning Hands, Varisian Tattoo: Evocation
Traits Magical Lineage: Burning Hands, Precocious Spellcaster: Light, Burning Hands
Skills Bluff +15, Fly +14, Intimidate +15, Linguistics +11, Perception +3, Sense Motive +3, Use Magic Device +15
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Daemonic, Giant, Ignan, Infernal, Osiriani, Terran, Varisian
SQ +2 bonus on Will saves, Bloodline Tattoos (Ex), Create Spell Tattoo (1/day) (Su), Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su), Draconic: Brass Dragon (Fire), Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Familiar Tattoo (Su), Fearless (Ex), Orc, Share Spells with Familiar, Speak with Animals (Ex), Speak With Familiar (Ex)

SPECIAL ABILITIES

+2 bonus on Will saves You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm’s reach.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Bloodline Tattoos (Ex) Bloodline spells are cast at +1 caster level.
Create Spell Tattoo (1/day) (Su) As a standard action, create a spell tattoo on yourself or a willing recipient.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Draconic: Brass Dragon (Fire) +1 damage per die for [Fire] spells.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Enhanced Varisian Tattoo: Fireball (1/day) (Sp) At 9th level, the tattooed sorcerer can pick any one spell she knows for which she has a Varisian Tattoo feat. This spell must be one that lacks focus components and costly material components. She can now use that spell as a spell-like ability once
Familiar Tattoo (Su) A tattooed sorcerer gains a familiar as an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to her sorcerer level. Her sorcerer levels stack with any wizard or witch levels she possesses when determining the powers of her familiar—this ability does not allow her to h
Fearless (Ex) At 3rd level, you gain a +4 bonus on saving throws made against fear and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, you lose your light sensitivity, gain immunity to fear, and your natural armor bonus increases to +2.
Immune to Fear (Ex) You are immune to all fear effects.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magical Lineage: Burning Hands A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Orc Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.
Precocious Spellcaster: Light, Burning Hands Select one cantrip and one 1st-level spell; when you cast these spells, they function at one caster level higher than your actual caster level.
Share Spells with Familiar The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast).
Speak with Animals (Ex) Your familiar can communicate with similar animals to itself.
Speak With Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Focus: Conjuration Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Focus: Evocation Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spell Specialization: Burning Hands Pick one spell and cast it as if you were higher level
Varisian Tattoo: Evocation Spells from chosen school gain +1 caster level.

The two posts you made look good. I'm just wondering, though, if there's anything on the same vein for wizard? Like, Evocation (Admixture) specialists?

[rasmuswagner]

The two posts you made look good. I'm just wondering, though, if there's anything on the same vein for wizard? Like, Evocation (Admixture) specialists?

The answer is basically "1 level of sorceror".

[GâtFromKI]

The two posts you made look good. I'm just wondering, though, if there's anything on the same vein for wizard? Like, Evocation (Admixture) specialists?

Admixture specialist and preferred spell. This makes the blaster sorcerer looks like a small piece of shit.

[Juton]

So I read part of Mythic Adventures. What's really galling is that all the mythic versions of fighter feats are what fighter feats should be already. Maybe Paizo is secretly afraid of melee classes that are merely underwhelming instead of sucking outright. That would explain dropping rage points from the beta.

[hogarth]

That would explain dropping rage points from the beta.

By "dropping", do you mean "renaming"? Because there's little difference between one rage point (in the playtest) and one round of rage (in the final version).

[Juton]

That would explain dropping rage points from the beta.

By "dropping", do you mean "renaming"? Because there's little difference between one rage point (in the playtest) and one round of rage (in the final version).

The huge difference is that with rage points you could nova if you wanted to. This is really important for classes like the Barbarian, because in its default mode it can deal with popcorn just fine, and being able to nova meant that it was a lot more useful against higher CR enemies.

[hogarth]

That would explain dropping rage points from the beta.

By "dropping", do you mean "renaming"? Because there's little difference between one rage point (in the playtest) and one round of rage (in the final version).

The huge difference is that with rage points you could nova if you wanted to.

You're going to have to refresh my memory. Was there some rage power where you could spend a whole bunch of rage points at once that I'm forgetting about?

[Dean]

I actually felt from what I read of the mythic book that by using the mythic rules and only giving them to the fighting classes you could actually balance out the game a fair bit. Casters act as normal but Fighters and Paladins and Rangers and Barbarians would all get mythic'd up and get all the sweet sweet mediocrity of mythic fighter powers. They could fly short distances for charges and gain spell resistance. All sorts of OK things.

[Juton]

You're going to have to refresh my memory. Was there some rage power where you could spend a whole bunch of rage points at once that I'm forgetting about?

Pretty much all the current rage power have a limitation of 'once per rage'. With rage points you could spam the same power on every attack and you could spam multiple powers on the same attack. The best powers allowed you to add your level on attack roles, CMB/CMD checks and grapple checks.

[hogarth]

You're going to have to refresh my memory. Was there some rage power where you could spend a whole bunch of rage points at once that I'm forgetting about?

Pretty much all the current rage power have a limitation of 'once per rage'. With rage points you could spam the same power on every attack and you could spam multiple powers on the same attack. The best powers allowed you to add your level on attack roles, CMB/CMD checks and grapple checks.

I guess it just seems a bit confusing to me to phrase that as "dropping rage points" instead of "nerfing rage powers".

[OgreBattle]

So what are the mythic powers Fighters get?