Orb of Dragonkind question
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Orb of Dragonkind question
The artifact orb of dragonkind grands the bearer the AC and saving throw bonuses of the dragon matching the orb. "These values replace whatever values the character would otherwise have, whether better or worse. These values cannot be modified by any means short of ridding the character of the orb."
The question is what counts as modifying the AC? Is touch AC a separate number for touch attacks, or do touch attacks make the target lose the modifiers for that attack, which is negated by the Orb? From what flat-footed and similar attacks show in the rules, they actually lower the AC against those attacks, and are thus not numerically lost; indirectly giving the benefits of Uncanny Dodge?
The question is what counts as modifying the AC? Is touch AC a separate number for touch attacks, or do touch attacks make the target lose the modifiers for that attack, which is negated by the Orb? From what flat-footed and similar attacks show in the rules, they actually lower the AC against those attacks, and are thus not numerically lost; indirectly giving the benefits of Uncanny Dodge?
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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Size Category: Ancient
Color: As Orb
AC: Refer to <color> Dragon Abilities by Age table
Saves: Refer to <color> Dragons by Age table
That said, I once wrote a short module featuring the Orb of Faery-Dragon Kind. That was a fun adventure. It was largely inspired by Faery Meat and used the Hackmaster rules.
Size Category: Ancient
Color: As Orb
AC: Refer to <color> Dragon Abilities by Age table
Saves: Refer to <color> Dragons by Age table
That said, I once wrote a short module featuring the Orb of Faery-Dragon Kind. That was a fun adventure. It was largely inspired by Faery Meat and used the Hackmaster rules.
I read the orbs as overwriting whatever the bearer's stats would be if they didn't have the orb. Your own statline is irrelevant; pull up the dragon's statline and read it instead.
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So enhancement bonuses don't improve/lessen the Orb bearer's AC, but circumstance/nameless bonuses do? Or do their baseline numbers from size/natural/dexterity shift to match that of the dragon, then they can wear armor and enchant themselves as normal?Archmage wrote:I read the orbs as overwriting whatever the bearer's stats would be if they didn't have the orb. Your own statline is irrelevant; pull up the dragon's statline and read it instead.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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Hence my original question. What counts as a modifier to AC vs a modifier to the assailant's attack bonus? Flat-footed? Touch attacks? Presumably modifiers from higher ground, flanking, and being invisible all give their +2 as bonuses to attacks rather than penalties to AC; while cover, prone, stunning, blindness, helplessness, and similar give no penalty to the Orb bearer.Ancient History wrote:Neither. By a strict reading, when you have the orb no modifiers to AC apply, either positive or negative. You can be a naked halfling laughing as the arrows bounce off you or a paladin in magical full plate, your AC with the orb is the same.
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How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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Am I that hard to understand?
With such effects as this, you can be naked & unconscious; and they still have to hit your 38 AC unless they perform a coup de grace. You could be exposing only your face from behind a wall, prone, & performing total defense; and archers still only have to hit an AC 38.
Going by a strict reading, you have basic Uncanny Dodge, because you cannot ever be denied your Dexterity bonus to AC. Is this only for flat-footed AC, or is there similar language for touch attacks?SRD wrote:Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
With such effects as this, you can be naked & unconscious; and they still have to hit your 38 AC unless they perform a coup de grace. You could be exposing only your face from behind a wall, prone, & performing total defense; and archers still only have to hit an AC 38.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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Touch AC would be the same as the dragon in question. All of your other questions have already been answered - no effect, circumstance, or item can modify the character's AC in any way barring the loss of the orb.
I should probably also point out that the wording of the powers of the orbs were only minimally altered when transcribing from their 2E formats, so they come from a time which such questions were answered with an empty pizza box to the face.
echo
I should probably also point out that the wording of the powers of the orbs were only minimally altered when transcribing from their 2E formats, so they come from a time which such questions were answered with an empty pizza box to the face.
echo
Pretty much. Either strict reading or sensible reading houseruling.
A strict reading is just as AH suggests.
You could certainly homerule it to be more sensible so that AC does change based upon whether you have cover, are flat footed, etc. but the artifact is wacky as written.
A strict reading is just as AH suggests.
You could certainly homerule it to be more sensible so that AC does change based upon whether you have cover, are flat footed, etc. but the artifact is wacky as written.
Last edited by erik on Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not trying to argue whether it's good or bad, I was looking for clarification so I know whether I understood how it works.Ancient History wrote:"Artifact." If you don't like it, homerule it.
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How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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It's rather straightforward. It does everything except send you a link to the table. A strict reading is that your AC is as listed for an ancient <color> dragon - including the touch and flat-footed AC listed - with no modifiers, such as feats or armor. A more liberal reading might allow for some situational differences on whatever rational you choose.
Poor imps and archers, benefiting from the Orb seems supremely inconvenient.
My next question, if you dominate a dragon with the Orb, does control of the dragon shift with/to the owner of the Orb? If you control a dragon and someone steals it, do they now control the commanded dragon?
My next question, if you dominate a dragon with the Orb, does control of the dragon shift with/to the owner of the Orb? If you control a dragon and someone steals it, do they now control the commanded dragon?
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Indeed, leave it to Artifacts to not be as awesome as one hoped, though I like the notion of Naked Halflings bouncing arrows off their chests.virgil wrote:Poor imps and archers, benefiting from the Orb seems supremely inconvenient.
My next question, if you dominate a dragon with the Orb, does control of the dragon shift with/to the owner of the Orb? If you control a dragon and someone steals it, do they now control the commanded dragon?
Well, it would be rather climatic for control to switch, and according the SRD, whoever's currently possessing the Orb, has its powers. However, that is a good question, in theory, if it's like casting the spell, it should stay under your control, as in a typical case when ye cast a spell, ye don't lose domination because that spell is now gone/expended for the day. If you lose a staff that had Domination, imagine ye wouldn't lose hold of the Dominated target.SRD wrote: The bearer of an Orb can dominate dragons of its particular variety within 500 feet (as dominate monster)
Last edited by Aryxbez on Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
Hey, so the dragon orbs from Dragonlance are basically orbs of Dragonkind, right? Does anyone know how they differ mechanically from the rules described in the DMG?
Also, where does it say what age category/size of dragon you get the AC of? I couldn't find that part in the DMG.
Also, where does it say what age category/size of dragon you get the AC of? I couldn't find that part in the DMG.
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Trank Frollman wrote:One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.
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TiaC wrote:I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)
It's my understanding that Dragonlance's orbs can summon dragons, has an ego score, scry (possibly through time), influence dragon-type creatures, and have command over more than one colour (only chromatic, IIRC). Oh, and they can be physically destroyed fairly easily.
I haven't referred to the DMG in ages, but in the online SRD I use, it states in the first line that it has an ancient dragon inside it.
I haven't referred to the DMG in ages, but in the online SRD I use, it states in the first line that it has an ancient dragon inside it.
Last edited by virgil on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Thankee-sai, virgil.
For a minute, I used to be "a guy" in the TTRPG "industry". Now I'm just a nobody. For the most part, it's a relief.
Trank Frollman wrote:One of the reasons we can say insightful things about stuff is that we don't have to pretend to be nice to people. By embracing active aggression, we eliminate much of the passive aggression that so paralyzes things on other gaming forums.
hogarth wrote:As the good book saith, let he who is without boners cast the first stone.
TiaC wrote:I'm not quite sure why this is an argument. (Except that Kaelik is in it, that's a good reason.)