After Sundown tweaks/house rules

[Orion]

At this very moment, I don't own a computer. As soon as I do, I will have a substantial amount of free time to devote to prose. I could crank out a substantial amount of prose in my own voice, or imitation Trollman or whatever, I just need to know what people want.

[OgreBattle]

At this very moment, I don't own a computer. As soon as I do, I will have a substantial amount of free time to devote to prose. I could crank out a substantial amount of prose in my own voice, or imitation Trollman or whatever, I just need to know what people want.

One of those "dudes are around a table and playing the game" italic text stories where we witness them rolling dice and being in-game.

[Username17]

Examples of play take up immense amounts of space, but I suppose it could be done.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

A short scene where someone gets run down by a car during a rainstorm would be really helpful.

E.g. a werewolf gets run over by a couple of hunters, they get chased through the woods until the inevitable.

[Lokathor]

Incidentally, I think that the game could have some expanded vehicle rules. We're not really playing The Fast and The Furious or Gone In 60 Seconds, but right now there's not even any explicit rules for how to decide vehicle impact damage when you drive a car into a monster. Sure, "You soak some big damage value" because a car is a 6N weapon, but maybe a guideline on how to pick a damage value would be cool. Also, something like a chart of suggested damage values for crashing when doing a stunt in a chase or doing "unsafe driving".

[Prak]

Isn't there a table fordamage by object size? That could cove various sizes of vehicle, including a basic "x at 30 mph," "x at 70 mph," "x at 120mph" distinction, while also covering "sewer lid," "telephone pole," and "uprooted electrical tower"

[Lokathor]

There's a table for melee weapons, which includes "Car, 6N" on it.

The equipment section probably needs to be expanded out a bit anyway, in addition to having a little chart for vehicle impacts and so on.

EDIT: There's also no rule on things like shooting through walls and car doors and stuff. Probably as simple as saying "it counts as bonus armor dice".

[Orion]

Maybe cars get a strength score, and then they attack you with a car?

[Grek]

Resolving a pedestrian being hit by a car as a 6N attack with no bonus works out pretty well. The average human Extra has about 3 Strength or so, and getting hit with a 6N attack will produce terminal wounds 96% of the time after soak. So, upon getting run over, an extra usually just falls over incapacitated before dying five minutes later.

Car crashes are a bit more problematic. Obviously, car accidents where you're inside the car are much less bad than accidents where you are in front of the car. Simulating this fact by having the Car give you Armour is incredibly awkward though - you'd need double digit armour bonuses just to get things approaching reasonable results. I'd recommend having a car accident do 1N for every 15 KPH (or 10 MPH for imperial users) you were going at the time of the accident, rounded up.

[Prak]

It's been a while since I read the pdf and don't have it handy at the moment. Isn't soak based on strength? Why not handle car crashes on the passenger side exactly the same way they're handled on the pedestrian side--the car's strength is used in place of the person behind the wheel.

[Grek]

Under the current rules, inanimate objects (including cars) don't have a Strength score for you to use.

[erik]

A short scene where someone gets run down by a car during a rainstorm would be really helpful.

E.g. a werewolf gets run over by a couple of hunters, they get chased through the woods until the inevitable.

I think I'm smellin what yer sellin.

[edit: In more seriousness, were you thinking like comic panels which could be done in about 2-3 pages to give that short scene, or a written scene?

I want to volunteer to do a comic panel but I'm still irritated that I haven't finished the Gregor short story for a Nosferatu and don't want to overreach.

edit2: I linked a higher resolution clickable on the pic since I'm not as happy with the smaller version]

[Lokathor]

I just saw this quote that I thought was so completely applicable to After Sundown that I thought I'd post it:
“People with dark souls have nothing but dark dreams. People with really dark souls do nothing but dream.”
― Haruki Murakami, Hear the Wind Sing

[echoVanguard]

In more seriousness, were you thinking like comic panels which could be done in about 2-3 pages to give that short scene, or a written scene?

I'm fairly certain they're referring to written examples. A lot of the mechanics in AS aren't extraordinarily clear how they might be applied in actual play, so an increase in examples across the board would be a big win.

echo

[echoVanguard]

I'm also tremendously confused what happens if your Baali witch becomes a Vampire or Revenant. Do you lose your old powers, or just stack them on? Similarly, how might a mundane Luminary in an Origin Story become an Android? Not how might such a transformation be explained, but how might it actually occur in terms of advancement?

echo

[Lokathor]

I'm also tremendously confused what happens if your Baali witch becomes a Vampire or Revenant.

A Baali cannot normally become a Vampire. If you did change, then my advice would be to swap out your Baali powers for Vampire powers (like with becoming a Wraith). Any power that you end up losing access to in the process (eg: because you lost the basic power in a category that you have an advanced power in) probably just becomes unavailable until you get a basic power in that group again.

Sometimes a player may want to continue their character as a Wraith rather than start a new character or have their character restored to life. This is a workable storyline, but it is fraught with peril because Wraiths are not normally considered playable (being constantly insubstantial while outside the Gloom). If the players agree, the character can be converted into a Wraith, with their Powers traded out for the basic Wraith abilities, starting what is in essence a new Origin Story. Being a Wraith should not be a license to print superpowers, so the new Powers that Wraiths get should replace some of the abilities they already had rather than just piling more on.

Same thing with Revenant. Baali powers become Revenant powers, left over powers you get to keep.

Similarly, how might a mundane Luminary in an Origin Story become an Android? Not how might such a transformation be explained, but how might it actually occur in terms of advancement?

When you become a supernatural you get some or all of your "Supernatural Template" for free, separately from the Karma System.

Regardless of the type of supernatural creature that the character is becoming (or discovering that they have always been), the character gains certain things when they stop being a human Luminary and start being a Supernatural Creature:
• A Potency of 1.
• A Power reserve of 10 (13 after Potency Modifier).
• A Master Passion appropriate to the character’s transformation story.
• The 6 Basic and 2 Advanced Powers common to their supernatural type.
• 1 additional Basic Power.
• 1 additional Advanced Power
Whether these new aspects of the character are discovered gradually over several chapters or gained all at once in a flash of insight and despair, these changes are automatic and have no impact on any other sources of advancement the character may have coming.

[echoVanguard]

A Baali cannot normally become a Vampire.

Why not? I understand that a Baali couldn't become, say, an Android or Frankenstein, but the game text specifically calls out certain types of supernatural transformations as acquisitions of a template (such as vampirism and zombiedom) from an in-game affliction or effect.

If you did change, then my advice would be to swap out your Baali powers for Vampire powers (like with becoming a Wraith). Any power that you end up losing access to in the process (eg: because you lost the basic power in a category that you have an advanced power in) probably just becomes unavailable until you get a basic power in that group again.

Sorry if I'm being unclear - I'm not looking for how to MTP an in-game situation, I'm looking for clarification of the rules themselves. I picked Baali specifically because most of their powers are learned sorceries that I would have no reason to forget or lose access to upon becoming a vampire. There also isn't any text in the rules suggesting that the rules for converting a character into a Wraith is meant to be applicable to other types of type conversions.

When you become a supernatural you get some or all of your "Supernatural Template" for free, separately from the Karma System.

So, I just randomly declare that my character is an Android whenever I feel like it if I haven't already chosen a supernatural type? It seems strange that certain templates like Revenant/Vampire/Lycanthrope can be foisted upon you by in-game events while others are entirely elected. It seems like there should be a way to have your supernatural type randomly accrued during the origin story without preselecting it. For example, Fallen can be spontaneously created by having a mortal Luminary be corrupted by an Infernal Artifact, which is totally awesome. Why aren't there similar rules for other types?

echo

[Chamomile]

For Android, having your body uploaded into a machine to prevent you from dying due to terminal illness or mortal wounds is an option.

[erik]

A Baali cannot normally become a Vampire.

Why not?

I'd swear there was a game text citation for this, but cannot find it. I wonder if it was left on the cutting room floor when it was being composed on the forums.

A Baali has reduced their soul to ash. A Dryad has replaced their heart with a seed and blood with sap. A Khaibit has already died once. These transformative events can justify them not being able to be later transformed into a were-critter or vampire. Same goes for transhumans and all supernaturals. They've been transformed such that they cannot become another. Blank slate luminaries no more.

For Ghost/Wraith and Zombie/Revenant I'd expect that mostly their transformations are of blank-slate luminaries. The bit about becoming a Wraith post-transformation in the Death section smacks more of an optional rule as it advises getting everyone on board before using that option.

If you're becoming one of the dead options post transformation, then you've been transformed again. Yes, sorceries were learned, but perhaps they don't work the same with your newly transformed rig and you're going to have to learn them all over again with your dead body. That would dovetail nicely with that being a Revenant can be reversed, and thus you'd be back in your old body type which can once again use the sorceries that were learned.

But yes, you are definitely spot on for highlighting that this is a section that needs better explanation in Version 2.

It seems strange that certain templates [...] can be foisted upon you by in-game events while others are entirely elected. It seems like there should be a way to have your supernatural type randomly accrued during the origin story without preselecting it.

This is another section that should get further fleshed out in V2. Really in an Origin Story the players should be having some sort of agreement with the MC before the transformation happens about how it is going to go down. You could agree that the MC will pick for you, or you could agree with the MC what you want to become and they can help make it happen.

The only template that is likely to be foisted upon you is Revenant and that one comes with suggestions that it can be reversed, and it is an alternative to death anyway. A vampire or werewolf probably shouldn't be turning a PC unless it was agreed upon by the player and MC as an acceptable thing to be done.

[Lokathor]

Why not? I understand that a Baali couldn't become, say, an Android or Frankenstein, but the game text specifically calls out certain types of supernatural transformations as acquisitions of a template (such as vampirism and zombiedom) from an in-game affliction or effect.

If a Baali wanted to become a frankenstein instead of a vampire they could just have themselves cut up and stitched back together in a fancy new way and bam. Or they could have their brain downloaded into a robot body if they want.

All supernatural transformation is a template. Each subtype is a template. There are no subtypes that aren't templates.

Maybe you're not getting that. Maybe you should read more of the sections that I quoted you:

The precise moment when a character becomes supernatural is not always clear. Sure you become a Nosferatu when another Nosferatu kills you with blood draining and passes you a power point. And you become a Bagheera when another Bagheera mauls you with a Terminal Wound and you spend an Edge to survive. But for others it’s less cut and dried. A character becomes a Fallen when their connection to humanity has been burnt out by Infernal magic, and that can take time. Androids and Troglodytes often discover their non-human status only gradually, sometimes the uncovering of powers is dragged out over the course of multiple chapters.

Sorry if I'm being unclear - I'm not looking for how to MTP an in-game situation, I'm looking for clarification of the rules themselves. I picked Baali specifically because most of their powers are learned sorceries that I would have no reason to forget or lose access to upon becoming a vampire. There also isn't any text in the rules suggesting that the rules for converting a character into a Wraith is meant to be applicable to other types of type conversions.

They're learned sorceries that you can write down in a book... so logically you should be able to pick up a book and read out of the book and then cast magic. And yet you still need to spend Karma to get a Sorcery Learning Card during the ending of a Chapter, or you can't use the book to cast spells. Because Magic. So clearly there's some sort of supernatural effect going on during the learning process that's associating the ability to do this thing with you. So clearly it could potentially be unassociated by a major event, such as changing your supernatural type.

It's weird to me that you're asking for specific rules citations of how to do a thing that the rules don't allow in the first place.

So, I just randomly declare that my character is an Android whenever I feel like it if I haven't already chosen a supernatural type? It seems strange that certain templates like Revenant/Vampire/Lycanthrope can be foisted upon you by in-game events while others are entirely elected. It seems like there should be a way to have your supernatural type randomly accrued during the origin story without preselecting it. For example, Fallen can be spontaneously created by having a mortal Luminary be corrupted by an Infernal Artifact, which is totally awesome. Why aren't there similar rules for other types?

I will start by saying that players should be free to choose their supernatural type even in an Origin Story. If they want to eventually play as a vampire, they should say so and the GM should work with them to let a vampire get into the story that makes them a vampire. At the same time, if they don't want to be a vampire then they should not be told that they have to play as one just because they were attacked by a vampire at the GM's whim.

It's appropriate to have games where "everyone is a vampire" or "everyone is a werewolf", if that's what the players have been told about and agreed to.

It's also appropriate to have games where no one knows what supernatural thing they'll become. However, the GM is at that point just picking for the player. Unless you have some sort of totally complex chart of random encounters and random supernatural types or something that somehow leaves the decision of it up to actual chance.

But regardless of how you're gonna go, every single type can be assigned "spontaneously", if you insist.

Vampire: bites
Lycanthrope: bites
Witch: you find a magic book and read it and do what it says
Animate:
``Frankenstein: chopped up and you wake up put back together with some of your parts replaced.
``Golem: your soul gets stuffed into a metal/wood/stone body
``Android: Your brain gets downloaded into a plastic body
Leviathan: You eat some infected meat and become a fish/lizard/bug person
Transhuman: you do the thing, each type already has a thing

[echoVanguard]

Why is Veil the only discipline that doesn't grant a tier-based bonus to anything? This seems like a huge bug.

echo

[echoVanguard]

I'd swear there was a game text citation for this, but cannot find it. I wonder if it was left on the cutting room floor when it was being composed on the forums.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. Sorry for not stating it more clearly.

This is another section that should get further fleshed out in V2. Really in an Origin Story the players should be having some sort of agreement with the MC before the transformation happens about how it is going to go down. You could agree that the MC will pick for you, or you could agree with the MC what you want to become and they can help make it happen.

The only template that is likely to be foisted upon you is Revenant and that one comes with suggestions that it can be reversed, and it is an alternative to death anyway. A vampire or werewolf probably shouldn't be turning a PC unless it was agreed upon by the player and MC as an acceptable thing to be done.

I think this is a valid way to do it, but I don't think it should be the only way. In the rules, if your character takes a terminal wound from a Bagheera and spends an Edge to survive, you turn into a Bagheera. Obviously you can elect to become a Bagheera by seeking out this circumstance and coordinating with the MC to do it, but for players who want a more organically-generated character it's certainly possible to just run into a Bagheera in the course of normal play and take a Terminal Wound from them. I think for AS 2E it would be a huge improvement to add organic template acquisition text for all of the various monster types, even if some of them are already fairly elective (nobody just decides that a dead Mi-Go looks tasty on a whim, but it's stated you can become a Mi-Go by eating the flesh of one).

For Android, having your body uploaded into a machine to prevent you from dying due to terminal illness or mortal wounds is an option.

Perfect! Exactly what I was looking for.

echo

[echoVanguard]

``Golem: your soul gets stuffed into a metal/wood/stone body

Wait, what? I had to go spot-check this in my copy, but it seems you are correct. Apparently you can be a golem made out of wood...who takes aggravated damage from being attacked with wood.

\(o_O)/ WHAT IS HAPPEN <(^_^<) LOL STOP HITTING YOURSELF

echo

[Prak]

Yeah, I honestly think the weaknesses need some revision.

[Username17]

It is certainly the intent that you get exactly 1 (one) special creature template, and not more. Magical transformation is something that is applied to a luminary human, not to a supernatural creature. If that is in any way unclear, I'll try to make it clearer and more explicit.

You can of course die and be brought back as a different kind of supernatural being. Most likely a ghost. But you'd still never be two kinds of supernatural creature at the same time. We don't want to go all Samuel Haight.

Apparently you can be a golem made out of wood...who takes aggravated damage from being attacked with wood.

It doesn't seem to bother anyone that Werewolves in Werewolf: the Apocalypse take aggravated damage from Werewolves. It doesn't bother anyone that a dragon's scales are pierced by a sword made from dragon scales. I don't see how it's even weird for a creature's defenses to be weak against the material it's made of. That's super standard in all mythology. Season 4 of Angel was really bad, but the big indestructible demon was defeated by being stabbed with his own horn. That part was fine.

Why is Veil the only discipline that doesn't grant a tier-based bonus to anything?

It doesn't grant anything because the obvious thing for it to do was make you stealthier, and that turned out to be super broken. If you have a thematic idea, I could possibly work it in.

-Username17