The Shadowrun Situation

[virgil]

Well, his character is a physical adept who wields a crossbow and monowhip and wears a trode hat slaved to the hacker's network to keep his brain safe, so about as luddite in game as you can be.

As for why, he enjoyed SR3 and I believe he was a mage or adept back then too (wasn't around).

[Nath]

As I understand it they even, and I love this, managed to retroactively explain away the terrible characterization that came from having a bunch of hacks and scabs finish off fourth edition by making them delusions in Fastjack's oncoming dementia, in the process pretty much destroying characters that some of us originated and rendering an unclear amount of the stuff we worked on as never having happened.

Though I joked bout this once, I don't think the idea crossed any of CGL authors' mind for real.

Retcon so far has been done the usual way, inserting unlikely fast strings of world changing events, reinterpreting previous sources, and opportunely forgetting to mention the parts that don't fit into the new vision.

[phlapjackage]

Aside from the covers (which are awful) especially the brony edition (awful AND stupid, a combination Jason Hardy specializes in), the book is fairly pretty. That's really all I can say.

The book is another thing I hate about the new edition, mostly because the layout is god-awful. Info is placed haphazardly, you find yourself having to flip back and forth multiple times to figure out one rule or piece of equipment. Check the length of the errata thread on DS (who's taking bets that the errata is published?). The bookmarks in the PDF suck, and why the fuck are there bookmarks for the short pieces of intro fiction? The margins and font are screwy, so much less text on every page (not in a good way).

[Aryxbez]

I did take a look at it once, for my sins.

Whenever there was progress in the game they subverted it, like the wireless Matrix. They rolled back pretty much everything they could, like the priority system. They changed things arbitrarily and for no apparent purpose, like the magic preparations. As I understand it they even, and I love this, managed to retroactively explain away the terrible characterization that came from having a bunch of hacks and scabs finish off fourth edition by making them delusions in Fastjack's oncoming dementia, in the process pretty much destroying characters that some of us originated and rendering an unclear amount of the stuff we worked on as never having happened.

Apparently a friend of mine likes the Priority system when he was making a Punching Adept for 5th edition Shadowrun. While I find that odd, I don't know too much, other than I've heard how it makes Trolls the best at Stealth somehow? Wondering if you could elaborate more on the Priority system, and your post here.

but has anyone played or attempted a session with the new rule set? Anyone planning to give it a review?

Koumei is playing in a game, though it seems the "fun" had is going to because of the group, and not the system itself. As the Bolded Portion says, I too am rather curious to see a detailed account of 5th edition's flaws. So that I could present a more wholesome case to friends of mine that are currently playing it. Albeit, I have no intention of ever playing it, as I don't need to pay for the same edition but worse, all over again.

[Rawbeard]

A drunken review would be appreciated. I am mostly curious about the limits crap and if they did anything to at least slightly fix the counter intuitive implications of that system (big burly men being potentially better at stealth than lithe elfs, sniper rifles being more interesting for close encounters, etc.)

[kzt]

Koumei is playing in a game, though it seems the "fun" had is going to because of the group, and not the system itself.

Yeah, I had a hell of a good time playing Bushido for a few years, despite Bushido being a combination of the worst elements of D&D and Rune Quest. If the group is into the game and has a low jerk factor almost any game can be fun.

[Concise Locket]

Whenever there was progress in the game they subverted it, like the wireless Matrix.

Can you (or someone else) elaborate on how the wireless Matrix was subverted?

[Ancient History]

For the wireless Matrix to work you have to assume that pretty much everything that can be online is online, pretty much as the default. They took that bit out, and then to encourage people to have their shit connect to the Matrix offered a range of insane, sometimes meaningless bonuses.

[Juton]

Thinking about the wireless matrix bonuses, they are extra unnecessary. You could fluff it that in-universe all manufacturers put all their electronics online with the state of mass manufacture wireless is as cheap or cheaper than offline. And why would good honest citizens need to keep their info off the grid? If you wanted to hide from the matrix you'd have to invest skills and time into modding your equipment or you'd have to search out and find the premium versions.

[Username17]

Thinking about the wireless matrix bonuses, they are extra unnecessary. You could fluff it that in-universe all manufacturers put all their electronics online with the state of mass manufacture wireless is as cheap or cheaper than offline. And why would good honest citizens need to keep their info off the grid? If you wanted to hide from the matrix you'd have to invest skills and time into modding your equipment or you'd have to search out and find the premium versions.

That doesn't really work though. As long as "dropout" is a possibility, players are going to do it. And if it takes one of the tech specialist characters a bunch of downtime to solder off all the antennas of all the players' gear, so be it. Indeed, all the does is create a bunch of annoying die rolling overhead and accounting before you can really start playing the game. It doesn't really matter how good or bad hackattacks are, if the players have the ability to attain total immunity to them, they are going to do that. Players already have to worry about bullets and spells (and dogs and bombs and spirits and lasers and so on and so forth), any threat that can be completely neutralized is one that the players are going to want to neutralize.

There really are only two ways to get people to actually have their devices be online. You can either set up a "stick" model or a "carrot" model. In other words, one way or the other you have to create actual incentives such that leaving your shit online is less bad than turning it off.

Now, the fact is that carrot models are fucking hard to do. And it shouldn't surprise anyone that 5th edition tried to implement one and it is incoherent and shitty.

-Username17

[JesterZero]

I have exactly zero interest in SR5 but has anyone played or attempted a session with the new rule set? Anyone planning to give it a review?

There's a decent summary of the changes between SR4 and SR5 in this Dumpshock thread:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39872

If you want a quick summary, it's basically this: SR5 is SR4 with a new mechanic bolted on (limits), the Matrix chapter swapped out (again), and a whole lot of house rules (many of which seem to exist primarily to differentiate it from SR4 and therefore sell a new book). When all is said and done, the cumulative effect of it all is a game that I think is worse than SR4 overall.

If you were a fan of the aesthetics of SR4A, you'll probably like the aesthetics of SR5, although the layout and user-friendliness of SR5 is a step down. As has been mentioned elsewhere, the production values seem high at first glance, but when you actually sit down to use the book, you're going to be continually frustrated (key rules randomly buried in the middle of paragraphs in odd places, an anemic index, lack of summaries, etc.). It also doesn't help that the book is riddled with typos, incorrect references, copy/paste errors from SR4 (and earlier), vague wording, and inconsistent rules. If you're a longtime Shadowrun fan, you'll be ok, but if you're trying to parse the rules as a new GM...good luck.

And for those of you who doubt that, here's the 20-page thread where Dumpshock tried to report errata back to Catalyst:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39006

If you're happy with SR4, you know where the pitfalls are, and you have house rules in place to deal with them, then I can't see any compelling reason you would want to switch to SR5.

[Concise Locket]

Tangentially related: http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-t ... shadowrun/

[Username17]

Tangentially related: http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-t ... shadowrun/

Sadly, there's really no part of this that isn't fair. 4th edition Shadowrun has a very solid core mechanic and several subsystems that are clunkier than they need to be. 5th edition should have streamlined that shit and made things snappier and better working. Instead it's just a stream of consciousness rant of some half baked and half remembered ideas that some grognards thought were kind of cool stapled on every which way. There's really no way that 5th edition got more elegant or more playable.

The accusation of "dinosaurs" is fair. But we're really talking about Jurassic Park dinosaurs, where the mechanics and sidebars are blended with frog DNA and kill everyone on the island because of chaos theory.

-Username17

[virgil]

I can almost (emphasis there) understand some of that guy's rant against the system. I've had several potential players read the SR4 (not SR4A) book and come away with a glazed look from the sheer volume of lists; it took one two weeks to make his character because of all of the options and four variables per option and repeated backflipping on each option...only to end up with a rigger who specialized in driving. He was proficient with D&D, and he found it overly crunchy in comparison; which is an accusation I've heard elsewhere before.

[kzt]

It would be kind of nice if the game book archetypes were actually built by someone who had both read the rules and played the game, so you really have fully functioning characters to give players without much work. I have no evidence that the SR5 ones are any better then the ones in every other edition (which all sucked) but I suspect they all suck too.

[phlapjackage]

Re: SR5 book archetypes, I think I've heard it said that when the archetypes were created they WERE fully functioning and rules-legal, but then the rules were changed a zillion times and the archetypes weren't updated to match.

[Stahlseele]

a) doesn't make it better
b) bad archetypes are kind of tradition with shadowrun it seems . .

[phlapjackage]

Didn't say it made it better, just trying to help identify what the problem was. If what I read on DS was accurate, it wasn't that someone didn't know how to make archetypes, it's that the editors didn't feel the need to update the archetypes after the rules changed.

Biggest gripe? "Shoot straight, converse ammo, don't deal with a dragon"

[OgreBattle]

maybe shitty archetypes are on purpose, in that M:tG "You'll feel clever when you build a stronger deck than the starter set" way.

[Stahlseele]

Biggest gripe? "Shoot straight, converse ammo, don't deal with a dragon"

i prefer .50AE over 7.62FMJ myself.

[Heisenberg]

Tangentially related: http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-t ... shadowrun/

That...was an illuminating read.

[Aryxbez]

Tangentially related: http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/10/14/ten-t ... shadowrun/

That...was an illuminating read.

Agreed, I always really disliked the "Dead Man's Trigger" rule requiring a toughness test before it could be carried out. Seriously, they spent an Edge already, let-em have their climatic final moment!

[Blade]

To be fair, most of this can be applied to any other edition of Shadowrun.

This guy just doesn't like complex rulesets and thinks that because most games are leaning towards lighter system, all games should do it.

[Username17]

To be fair, most of this can be applied to any other edition of Shadowrun.

This guy just doesn't like complex rulesets and thinks that because most games are leaning towards lighter system, all games should do it.

I'm not familiar with the guy, and some of his more hand wavey general complaints seem to be of the "I like ruleslite games, therefore other games are badwrong," but when it gets down to the specifics, he's right on the money. Every single thing he selected to photo out of the 5th edition rulebook is a problem. They are, in order:

• The d6 NPC "Personality Traits Table"
• The Blandness quality (for 8 Karma!)
• The Rigger archetype's wall-of-text
• The Treading Water Rules
• The Hash Power
• The insanely convoluted explosion damage example.
• The Recoil Rules
• The ass backwards movement example.
• The Dead Man's Trigger Rules
• The meandering extra text at the start of the action scenes section.

That's a pretty good list, because every single one of those thins is fucked up. The Dead Man's Trigger and treading Water rules are clunky holdovers from previous editions, but they are clunky holdovers. They weren't that good when written for SR4 or SR3 respectively, and they've been obviously in need of some cleanup for multiple presidential administrations. The fact that they were copypastaed into a new edition that even uses slightly different game mechanics just makes them clunkier and more out of place than they were to begin with.

All the other bits highlight sections of the rules that have been made more garbled and incoherent in SR5. Who honestly looked at Shadowrun's long standing shitty recoil rules and decided that what they really needed was to be just as shitty but more complicated? Who decided that there simply wasn't enough text to wade through on a Rigger?

-Username17

[Rawbeard]

Who wrote the recoil? What the fuck? What is this? "If you have to draw, you are not prepared." Thanks Illidan. This is a sentence that begs for a houserule to check for accidental discharge, to see if you shoot yourself in the foot while drawing your weapon...