Gygax´s Cyborg Commando: the worst published game ever ?

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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Voss wrote:
The roots of the modern rpg are firmly planted in wargames and wargame theory.
Apart from silva, I would hope we all knew that bit already.
Well, the nPlayer aspect that became the foundation of Wesely's "Braunstein" is assumed to have come after, not from, wargames.

Dave Arneson didn't claim that he 'invented' the RPG b/c he attributed its creation to Wesely.
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Post by ckafrica »

My only contribution to any Gygax discussion is as a result of his voice from a guest appearance as narrator in a DDO quest chain. he sounds like the worst stereotype of an ubergeek role player that you can ever imagine. Perhaps its just his bad voice acting but you can image his girlish cackles as you stumble through traps.
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Post by tussock »

@ckafrica, definately.

EGG thought the nature of the game was to play tricks on your friends and laugh when they fell for it because suddenly your clues all made sense, from the perspective of lying dead at the bottom of a pit. He's also credited with cackling away even harder whenever his own characters fell into similar situations.

He was quite confused that people wanted to tell epic stories with it, when it was just so much fun.


@roleplay. Yes, though it did take a while to appear, the DMG in 1st edition has penalties for failing to play to your alignment, for failing to play up your class role, and does not abstract out player skill in negotiation or anything. There's rules like penalties for failing to negotiate with henchmen the right way. You absolutely have to roleplay under EGG, it's part of the deal. Hell, he called it a "role-playing game". You're just not supposed to have to play in-character, because it's not an acting contest, it's a game.

@modules. The early ones are gencon events. They look like fast-action tournament play because people wanted to buy their tournament modules. Greyhawk was rather different, all political scheming and world-jumping and active gods and time travel based around the great dungeon under castle Greyhawk. They didn't sell that because they couldn't figure out how to publish a kitchen-sink megadungeon with 60+ levels.
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

talozin wrote:I can go dig my copy out of the attic and OSSR it.
I've looked at the PDF and my brain refused to process it, but to be honest...

I'm curious what a hard copy of Cyborg Commando smells like.
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Post by malak »

Judging__Eagle wrote:Gygax and Arneson weren't really innovating; they were simply evolving the existing content.
Not sure why you think that's not innovating. It pretty much describes all human advance...standing on the shoulders of giants and all.
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Post by talozin »

JigokuBosatsu wrote: I'm curious what a hard copy of Cyborg Commando smells like.
Not nearly as much like ass as you would be justified in expecting. I have a head cold, so it might be worse than I think, but at minimum it smells better than my cat's litterbox.

On the other hand, after a brief attempt at reading it I am now unsure whether I would rather OSSR this game (128 pages) or World of Synnibar (500+ pages). At least Synnibar has the virtue of being utterly ridiculous.
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Post by silva »

Do you actually own physical copies of Cyborg Commando and World of Sinnybar ?

Tell me you dont own FATAL and RaHoWa too.
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Post by codeGlaze »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:
talozin wrote:I can go dig my copy out of the attic and OSSR it.
I'm curious what a hard copy of Cyborg Commando smells like.
That is now one of my all time favorite quotes. XD
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Post by talozin »

silva wrote:Do you actually own physical copies of Cyborg Commando and World of Sinnybar ?
Yes. Back in the '90s, during the first dotcom boom, I bought stuff just for the hell of it -- if it looked interesting or if it looked terrible. After all, you can learn just as much from terrible games as from good ones, if not more.

So I do in fact own physical copies of Cyborg Commando (bought it new in shrink wrap!) and Synnibar, along with SenZar, Space: 1889, SLA Industries, Prince Valiant, Hong Kong Action Theatre, the first edition of Gamma World, what the fuck ever. I have a copy of Engel for no better reason than "huh, I don't think I've ever seen graphic design quite that abusive before."
Tell me you dont own FATAL and RaHoWa too.
Fuck no. I have standards. Not high standards, but standards.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

talozin wrote:
silva wrote:Do you actually own physical copies of Cyborg Commando and World of Sinnybar ?
Yes. Back in the '90s, during the first dotcom boom, I bought stuff just for the hell of it -- if it looked interesting or if it looked terrible. After all, you can learn just as much from terrible games as from good ones, if not more.

So I do in fact own physical copies of Cyborg Commando (bought it new in shrink wrap!) and Synnibar, along with SenZar, Space: 1889, SLA Industries, Prince Valiant, Hong Kong Action Theatre, the first edition of Gamma World, what the fuck ever. I have a copy of Engel for no better reason than "huh, I don't think I've ever seen graphic design quite that abusive before."
Tell me you dont own FATAL and RaHoWa too.
Fuck no. I have standards. Not high standards, but standards.
How is Hong Kong Action Theatre? It's one of those games I've only heard of in passing.
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Post by fectin »

Space: 1889 apparently underwent something of a revival, because steampunk.
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Post by talozin »

Mask_De_H wrote: How is Hong Kong Action Theatre? It's one of those games I've only heard of in passing.
I don't know how much you've heard about it, but the central conceit is that you're all generating actors who appear in the action movies that you play out as game sessions. So characters have the same basic stats in every "film" (adventure), but can have different skills and specialties (e.g., a big brawny guy might be cast as a pro football player in a modern movie -- and thus get a bonus to sports-related stuff for that adventure -- but become a leg-breaking thug in an Ancient China adventure and get crime connections for that adventure.) The GM is supposed to concoct adventures with "roles" that any of the characters could get cast as, and the players bid on individual roles for each new adventure with Star Power, which is also used to raise stats, and do "script rewrites" during the course of the adventure. Besides gaining back Star Power at the end of a movie (a multiple of what you bid, based on how well you did in the role), you also get it back for doing ridiculous stunts.

The actual mechanics are pretty abstract: it's just Stat + Applicable Specialty + situational modifier + 1d20 vs an arbitrary difficulty level ranging from 10 (easy) to 40 (impossible). PC stats range from 11 to 20, specialties can be from 1 to 5, so it's pretty fast as long as you don't get hung up on picking difficulties.

Combat uses the basic mechanics, but with difficulties set based on how important the character is to the movie -- so it's extremely easy to shoot a mook in the eye from 100 yards away and hard to plug the Big Bad even if he's standing right in front of you. Initiative is based on 1d20 + Speed stat +/- weapon speed modifier. There's a slightly odd mechanic where you get additional "actions" based on how many points you beat the initiative difficulty of what you're doing by. Oh, and little drama rules like guns running out of ammo on low die rolls, rather than actually keeping track of how many shots you've used. I'm glossing over a few things here, but honestly not that much -- the entire rules section of the book covers maybe 30 pages of fairly large print with a lot of tables and illustrations.

I think the high concept of "characters as actors" is the main reason to look at the game; there's no real reason to use it with the mechanics provided, though (as opposed to Feng Shui or whatever) if that's what you prefer.
Last edited by talozin on Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
TheFlatline wrote:This is like arguing that blowjobs have to be terrible, pain-inflicting endeavors so that when you get a chick who *doesn't* draw blood everyone can high-five and feel good about it.
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