Why do I keep doing this to myself?

[Voss]

Well, there is the pig farmer from the Desert of Desolation miniatures set.

Here are the 4e stats (for DDM, which are slightly tweaked from the 4e stats, but not much)-

level 1, 10 hp (these are definitely rounded), AC 17, Defenses are all 13, Bill Hook +8 vs AC, 10 damage (also rounded).

So, yeah...

[Leress]

damn, that is one tough ass farmer.

[Talisman]

AC 17? Defenses 13?? +8 to hit???

Go farmer! We don't need any stinkin' adventurers shoving us around!

[Koumei]

It's like those MMORPGs that don't say "No combat in town" or "shopkeepers are immune to violence" and instead make every shopkeeper level 100 just to force players to play the "kill monsters, earn money, buy stuff" game instead of killing and robbing the storekeepers.

[Crissa]

That doesn't really follow, Koumei. The Kobold was tougher.

Also, I'm confused as to how they expect anyone to subscribe to this. Some will, certainly, but it'll be ten or twenty thousand people. Not a large number. They no longer have stores, they don't have plans for game cards or phone-charging that I know of...

...And I'd really argue that I don't see a first level character in their system having more options than a 3e character. It seems like much less options. Less weapons, less armors, less maneuvers, less effect for the maneuvers that remain, and a few special abilities that seem outnumbered by what was lost.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

I think the point was that the characters have more options than the monsters, due to monsters being created from the "They'll be lucky to last a whole round." point of view.

And I know the Kobold is tougher, but that farmer is still pretty hardcore.

[Voss]

Yeah, you thought the kobold was bad? Check this shit out.
They actually threw this at the 1st level parties going through the adventure at the D&D experience thing. Mearls added it in to prove that characters can die. (and yeah, I'm quite serious)

Young Black Dragon Lvl 4 Solo Skirmisher
Large natural magical beast (aquatic, dragon) XP 875
Init +11 Senses Perc +9; darkvision
hp 280, bloodied 140 (bloodied breath)
AC 24; Fort 19, Ref 21, Will 18
Resist 15 acid
Saving throws +5
Speed 7, fly 7 (clumsy), overland flight 10, swim 7
Action Points 2

m Bite (standard, at-will) * Acid
Reach 2; +10 vs AC; 1d6+3 damage and ongoing 5 acid damage (save ends)

m Claw (standard, at-will)
Reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d4+3 damage

M Double Attack (standard, at-will)
Makes two claw attacks

M Tail Slash (Immediate reaction, when a melee attack misses the dragon; at-will)
Uses tail to attack enemy that missed it, reach 2; +8 vs AC; 1d6+4 damage and push 1 square

C Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) * Acid
Close Blast 5; +7 vs Ref; 1d12+3 acid, and target takes ongoing 5 acid damage and -4 to AC (save ends both)

C Bloodied Breath (Immediate reaction; when first bloodied; encounter) * Acid
Breath weapon recharges automatically, and dragon uses it immediately

C Cloud of Darkness (standard; sustain minor; recharge 3 4 5 6) * Zone
Close burst 2; creates a zone of darkness that remains in place until end of dragon's next turn. The zone blocks line of sight for every creature except the dragon. Any creature entirely within the area except the dragon is blinded.

C Frightful Presence (standard, encounter) * Fear
Close burst 5; targets enemies; +5 vs Will; the target is stunned until the end of the dragon's next turn; Aftereffect: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends)

Alignment Evil Languages Draconic
Skills Nature +9, Stealth +17
Str 16 (+5) Dex 20 (+7) Wis 15 (+4)
Con 16 (+5) Int 12 (+3) Cha 10 (+2)

Yes, solo monsters are design to handle a whole party on their lonesome, but...
280 hp? At level *4*? (by contrast, our 4th level rogue will have about 41. A fighter, speculatively, about 50-55)

+5 to its goddamn saving throws. So its throwing off, for example, sleep, on a 5+

AC and defenses are ridiculously high for its level. A fighter might have somewhere between a +8 to +10 to attacks. And is going to be whiffing a lot, and being punished for it by its tail strikes.

On the other hand, its damage is ridiculously low. all its attacks are standard actions, so the best it can do is breath acid or do a double claw attack. 2 x 1d4+3 or 1d12+3 to an area. Whee.
However it does have 2 action points to spend, so it can double claw twice in two rounds. But most of its damage comes from smacking people with its tail every time they miss, strangely though, it has reach, but can't have reach when it isn't its turn, but thats the only time it can use it...


Oh, the breath weapon... um. ridiculously stupid if I understand close blast 5. Everyone within 5 squares of it is attacked. Not in a cone, or line, or whatever, but everywhere all around.

But mostly it just has a hell of a lot of hit points.

More stats and monsters, here:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220242

[JonSetanta]

1204331089[/unixtime]]damn, that is one tough ass farmer.

Well, yeah.
He can wrassle hog or calf, chop and plow, dig, so why not be more competent in battle than an underfed soldier or squire half his age?
And the scythe.. yowzaz.

But in all seriousness, it's relative. 10 HP might survive a housecat (better fucking hope so!!!) but against a Fighter 1, he probably won't make it... unless he calls out his many strapping young sons and/or daughters, in which case the level 1 adventuring party of 4 is screwed.
And that's just without 30 HP, CON 18 wife with a cast iron frying pan to your forehead.

[Voss]

Its also worth noting that while rogues can't use maces, NPC bandits that are almost rogues, can. And are, in fact, required to do so.

Human Bandit Level 1 Skirmisher
Medium natural humanoid XP 135
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initiative +6 Senses Perception +1
HP 30; Bloodied 15
AC 16; Fortitude 12, Reflex 14, Will 12
Speed 6

m Mace (standard, at will) * Weapon
+4 vs. AC; 1d8 + 1 damage, and the human bandit shifts 1 square

r Dagger (standard, at will) * Weapon
Range 5/10; +6 vs. AC; 1d4 + 1 damage

M Dashing Strike (standard, at will) * Weapon
Requires mace; +4 vs. AC; 1d8 + 1 damage, the target is dazed until
the end of the human bandit's next turn, and the human bandit shifts
1 square

Combat Advantage
The human bandit deals an extra 1d6 damage on melee and ranged
attacks against any target it has combat advantage against.

Alignment Any Languages Common
Skills Stealth +5, Streetwise +7, Thievery +9
Str 12 (+2) Dex 17 (+4) Wis 11 (+0)
Con 13 (+2) Int 12 (+1) Cha 13 (+2)

Equipment leather armor, mace, 4 daggers

And yeah, the bandit and guardsmen prove that everybody starts out in the 20+ hp range. If not 30.

I forget, already, was the 'sweet spot' they were trying to spread to all levels the one where everyone attacks each other repeatedly to no real effect until about round 4, and then you just randomly determine who dies?


And dear gods. The hobgoblin spellcaster is essentially a master of force magic. That makes me a little sad, just because it spits on my personal preferences. Its fantasy dammit. 'Force' isn't a goddamn element, and barely a concept. Its more anachronistic than rapiers, plate and handguns.

[JonSetanta]

DAMN IT why didn't they just scrap the idea of weapon proficiencies? Are there really that many fans of limiting weapon use to tiny niche roles???

No more splat book class example pictures with maces! Please!

[Voss]

Here's a fun (probable) fact about the weapons. Each weapon has a proficiency rating (it was on the pick back in the critical hits article. Its the bonus to hit with the weapon. +2 is normal, daggers are +3, and axes are apparently +1....

[Prak]

1204329902[/unixtime]]Prak: knowing said forum is blocked should tell you that a large part of the audience doesn't even have permission to read on rape-related issues. Also, even if the 4E design was perfect, just heeding the retards of the Manure forum on flavor concerns would make me drop it.

But of course, the point stands on both not every half-orc being a rape product, and on Tanis seemingly haven't done anything to half-elven reputation. I think the real answer is ultimately "orcs are neither pretty nor emo".

which of course could make huge swathes of half-orcs go emo.

"Half-Orcs, so ignored, they're not even popular when they're emo."

and if anyone lives in CA and wants a farmer my store opened some boosters and we've got 'em...

I'm not sure if that offer was in earnest or jest...

[virgil]

A level 4 solo monster has 280 hit points?! There is that much of a disparity between solo and non-solo? The pit fiend is a leader type ('tween state of solo and non-solo), and is 22 levels higher, but only has 70 more hit points. Is the actual damage scaling expected to be that slow?

[CatharzGodfoot]

1204351418[/unixtime]]A level 4 solo monster has 280 hit points?! There is that much of a disparity between solo and non-solo? The pit fiend is a leader type ('tween state of solo and non-solo), and is 22 levels higher, but only has 70 more hit points. Is the actual damage scaling expected to be that slow?

Nah, it's just that the 4th level solo monster is a dragon.

Wizard's hardon for dragons has grown to such epic proportions that if you so much as look at a dragon it will slap you into the ground and spit all over you.

Adult dragons have a special ability that allows them to summon Balors and make them explode into confetti just to intimidate you.

[Voss]

judging from the hp/ level the rogue gets, various monster that are leaking all over the place, (bodaks and some other things are here: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4 ... stcount=42 ), yes, hp scale that slowly. The bodak is worth taking a look at, just for the fucked up way the reworked the death gaze.

Basically, death gaze is stupid.

Death Gaze (standard; encounter) • Necrotic
Range 10; targets a living creature; +20 vs. Fortitude; If the target is weakened, it is reduced to 0 hit points, otherwise the target takes 1d6+6 necrotic damage and loses 1 healing surge.

Rather trivial if you aren't weakened, keeping in mind these are level 16 and 18 monsters, so d6+6 is literally, 'whatever'. (the rogue has about 90 hp at level 16). However, both creatures have a melee attack that inflicts the weakened condition. The lower level one, the skulk is actually slightly more dangerous since that condition just lasts until its next turn (when it gazes you to 0), whereas you can just roll a 10+ and shake off the soldier's condition. (Or, in either case a cleric can remove it).
But yeah, the 'death gaze' drops you to 0. You now have to roll <10 three times to actually die, assuming no one heals you in the meantime. So scary.

[JonSetanta]

So what should the Bodak do, IYO?

IMO it should deal 1d6 +6 +(1 stat bonus, maybe the whole score) +level.

But then again it does get +20 to the 'attack' for being L18 or so (I don't feel like going to ENWorld right now, I'll take Voss's summary as-is) which is like having a 3.x save DC of, what, low 20 something?
Would that 'hit' often? Or somewhat of a 50/50.

Personally I have no problem with death effects knocking a person to 0 rather than the DM stating "You die." Even better than my [Death] effect CON damage concept.

[Username17]

So what should the Bodak do, IYO?

Such a quandary. Because frankly Bodaks are stupid and no one cared that they existed before they got folded into the 3e Monster Manual. As far as I know they got their start in the AD&D 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Index. Bodaks should go back to not existing in order to make room for cooler monsters like Tengu or Scorpicores.

But over and above that, the math of 4th edition that they are so smugly proud of is so shitty that I can't even wrap my mind around it. I can't give a good answer for what any of these critters should do numerically because I'm genuine offended by the rubric they are throwing around where Monsters have lots of hit points and do tiny damage and the player characters inflict moderate damage. The thing where it seriously takes over a hundred rounds for a Dragon to kill itself is just dumb.

-Username17

[SunTzuWarmaster]

From above:
Wait a minute, I just saw something on the kobold, an ability called "shifty". Does this mean they completely removed 5'-steps?
----

Wait a minute, I just saw something on the hobbit, an ability called "trisksy".

Heh, LoTR...

[RandomCasualty]

1204372843[/unixtime]]
But over and above that, the math of 4th edition that they are so smugly proud of is so shitty that I can't even wrap my mind around it. I can't give a good answer for what any of these critters should do numerically because I'm genuine offended by the rubric they are throwing around where Monsters have lots of hit points and do tiny damage and the player characters inflict moderate damage. The thing where it seriously takes over a hundred rounds for a Dragon to kill itself is just dumb.

It sounds like they just copied the format of a Final Fantasy boss battle.

The problem is that even the mooks still have lots of hp, if the kobold skirmisher tells us anything. This means that battles are going to take forever.

[Voss]

Not forever, really. The dragon is an odd exception, not just because of his hit points, but because the defense scores are so high for the level- people will be needing 15+ to hit the damn thing. Whereas against the kobolds, its about a 9+. The party against a group of kobold skirmishers should take about 5-6 rounds, and I think that holds true for a lot of other monsters. That, in itself, isn't bad. The problem I have with it is that almost everything is geared for combat. It might as well be entitled Advanced D&D Miniatures at this point- you *can* roleplay if you really want to bother, but its mostly an advanced combat set.

There are some other types of kobolds. Most are equally stupid, though the hobgoblin archers get some crazy shit- if one hits with its longbow, an ally within 5 squares gets +2 on its attacks. So a group of hobgoblin archers is very good at volleying- at third level they attack at +9, or +11 if affected by this.
But, anyway- there is also the kobold minion. This sort of kobold will be showing up in huge groups, because unlike the 27 hp skirmisher, or the 31 hp 'dragon shield' kobold, or the 24 hp kobol slinger, the minion dies as soon as it takes any damage whatsoever. Because, you know, consistency and verisimilitude were things that they decided early on that they didn't want to present in the game in any way.

As for what the Bodak's gaze should do.... I don't know exactly. i'm a bit with frank- if you don't want SoD's, you take the things that used to rely on them out entirely. It just stretches the potential tpk out over 2 rounds. And yes, those bonuses seem high. The fort on a character (level 18, to match the +20 bodak gaze) should be 10+9 (1/2 level) + Con (or str) mod +0-2 depending on class + 3-5 (depending on what level of defense boosting item is level appropriate and required for the math). I think thats it. So, call it 10 +9 + 3 + 1 +4 = 27. The bodak needs a 7. Very low. Hopefully I'm missing something in that formula, but I can't guess what it is. The attack that inflicts the weakened stat is +21 versus AC, which is more reasonable, since that will probably be 5-9 points higher, from magical armor.
Whatever. there are a lot of gaps in the info for higher levels, so its hard to say exactly how that plays out, but it doesn't look good. And the bodak is on my personal list of stupid creatures that ought to be tossed out. Unfortunately, it looks like a lot of those creatures survived the edition change.

[Voss]

Ah. Magic items. Prepare to laugh and cry.
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p ... ][quote]+1 Cloak of Resistance (Level 2)
Body Slot: Neck
Enhancement: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defenses
Power (Daily): Minor Action. Gain resist all 5 until the start of your next turn.[/quote]

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Ugh. One one hand I like that "+1 armor" has a non-numeric effect in addition to being "+1". On the other hand, I don't like have a 1/encounter power on my warhammer, a 1/day power on my armor, another 1/encounter power on my cloak, and another 1/day power on my gauntlets. That is stupid.

Also, I loved the Girdle of Giant Strength. I mean, come on. They made it so that you could throw GIANT ROCKS at people. I remember one time in the 2nd ed. campaign I was in the warrior was being rushed by a group of archers after having been teleported to the top of the castle walls. He used his Girdle of Giant Strength to rip out a crenelation and throw it at the guards. That is awesome, and should be encouraged in D&D. These are NOT Gauntlets of Ogre Power:

GAUNTLETS OF OGRE POWER [LEVEL 5]
These gauntlets are good for a fighter, ranger, or paladin.
Body Slot: Hands
Property: Gain a +1 item bonus to Athletics checks and Strength ability checks (but not Strength attacks).
Power (Daily): Free action. Activate when you hit with a melee attack. Add a +5 power bonus to the damage roll

BTW, for the cloak, I believe that it grants +1 to all saves as well, so it is effectively a +1 Cloak of Resistance with some other minor stuff.

[Crissa]

That's... Uhh... Level 5? That item is supposed to make r break your win against the Dragon? WTF?

Level 1 is more like it, I'd rather have the cloak.

-Crissa

[Leress]

+1 FROST WARHAMMER [LEVEL 3]
This is a good weapon for a fighter to wield.
Enhancement: Attack rolls and damage rolls with weapon.
Critical: +1d6 cold damage.
Power (Encounter): Free action. Activate when you hit with this weapon. The target takes +1d10 cold damage and is slowed until the end of your next turn (Cold).

Okay, if I recall correctly, wouldn't a creature hit with slow be able to roll as saving throw at the end of their turn?

With all these 1/day or encounter, it looks like there will be a flood of abilities and everyones character sheet will look like a 3.5 wizards spell list. There just seem to be a bewildering number of options that only work once. I thought people didn't like having a lot of little tiny bonuses on abilities and having to add and take off when the turn is over. I guess there is going to be a lot of erasing and writing even in one battle alone.

I wonder if there are going to be alchemical items in this new edition.

[Voss]

1204412665[/unixtime]]

Okay, if I recall correctly, wouldn't a creature hit with slow be able to roll as saving throw at the end of their turn?

Well, it depends how they get hit with slow. Or rather what is inflicting the condition, which is one of the greatest stupidities of the system- no consistency. The slow inflicted by the sleep spell is lifted by a save. The slow inflicted by this hammer's power isn't. It lasts for a set duration. Slow does the same thing in both cases, but the duration is dependent on the power that inflicts it. I'm sure there will be other things that slow you for the duration of an encounter, with no save.

With all these 1/day or encounter, it looks like there will be a flood of abilities and everyones character sheet will look like a 3.5 wizards spell list. There just seem to be a bewildering number of options that only work once. I thought people didn't like having a lot of little tiny bonuses on abilities and having to add and take off when the turn is over. I guess there is going to be a lot of erasing and writing even in one battle alone.

Yes. Yes there are. And some last until the end of your next turn, some last until the end of someone else's next turn, some last until you make a save at the end of your turn, and some just last. And, lets see. Light has a duration of 5 minutes, ignoring the new system entirely, and the cleric has a power that lasts for one attack or save. Its really, really inconsistent.

I wonder if there are going to be alchemical items in this new edition.

Sadly, from my perspective, there are. Sunrods appear on several character sheets.


And yes, expect bad estimations of an item's power. Though you can stack the hell out of those items. To make uber-alpha strikes, and I don't see anything to stop you from swapping items out after you've used encounter or daily powers. Just like I told that idiot mearls, and he shrugged it off as not a problem.


Oh, Sun. 5' steps are not exactly out. You can turn any move action into a shift (move without provoking an attack) of 1 square. Its effectively the same thing, but some abilities allow you to shift more than one square. And the kobolds can apparently do it as a minor action, or whatever that 'shifty' trait says.