Its not how LARGE it is... its HOW its used.

[Aryxbez]

Im cool with that. Even if I disagree about the "game design forum" part myself.

I'm not sure how long you've been lurking here before you joined, but...this IS a Tabletop RPG Game Design focused forum. While different ideas on design have been discussed, they are discussing their design ramifications. So seeking to doubt a large benefit of the Gaming Den and its members, shows don't seem to know this forum well (and possibly insulting it members inadvertently as well).

Well it seems you dont know Amber enough to speak for it.

As controversial this is going to sound to you, ye don't need to play a given RPG to get an introspective look into its ruleset. Much like we don't need to play an RPG to see if it's RNG works or not (math is something that can be tested obviously).

I've read the former and played the later and never found any problem with it, except "stylistic disagreements"

Just because you personally, do not see a problem, does not mean said problems do not exist. That line of thinking is simply being dishonest for discussion, and you'd be much less relevant to discussion if ye advocate something like that.

It is true there will be more to making a given RPG, than just its ruleset, but in terms of talking about it as a "game", its rules are important. As thing is about RIFTS, while I'm sure it's something I would enjoy reading, unlikely something I'd ever play (which given its apparent quality of writing, would be a shame its rules give such disservice). Saying we only care about "task resolution" is another example of you truly looking to be dishonest in discussion here (your language barrier both linguistically and mentally be damned).

Lastly, it is clear and sad, that you're trying to shutdown discussion as evidenced by "it's only opinion", "FUN", "gotta be a designer before can criticize!", and"Shut up" excuses. All childish notions you should seek to learn and overcome from.

[Voss]

Whoa, whoa. Rifts 'quality of writing' isn't good either. There are good setting ideas, and all sorts of wild and crazy shit that make for entertaining elements in a multi-dimensional, post-apocalyptic crossrip... but the quality of writing usually isn't good. Part of it is simply that there isn't a coherent narrative, but rather individual snippets, but there is also the giant pile of cliches and bullshit. Kevin is primarily an idea guy, but comes up somewhat lacking when it comes to bringing it all together, and really falls apart when it comes to rules.

[codeGlaze]

As far as Dennizen products being "seen" around the internet...

I found this place because of the WotC forums, GitP forums, MinMaxBoards (formerly BrilliantGameologists) and somethingAweful. Shit, even /tg/ has Tome conversations.

Tome material was highly regarded and recommended repeatedly. Especially "official" stuff.

So just writing off the opinions of the majority of the Dennizens because they aren't 'important' enough to know what they're talking about is disingenuous. Especially considering how the Tome products have been relatively influential in the non-Grognard community.

[Kaelik]

I found this place because of the WotC forums, GitP forums, MinMaxBoards (formerly BrilliantGameologists) and somethingAweful. Shit, even /tg/ has Tome conversations.

The problem with that is that most of those forums are primarily D&D forums, because D&D is th most popular TTRPG game in existence. Hell, even therpgsite, rpggames, ect also talk about Tome.

But fundamentally, we are talking to silva, someone who has never played D&D and knows nothing about it. So when a forum posts about D&D, he doesn't read the threads, because he only reads threads where he can fap to *World games.

It isn't surprising that he hasn't seen Tomes or Aftersundown out there, because he only reads threads that are about games without rules.

[silva]

Yup, overall Im not really interested in D&D or WoD. The former never really did it for me, and I played too too much of the later in my youth. And btw, Im not really interested in Shadowrun anymore for the same reasons - after trying out subsequent rules-lightish games, I dont see the point to coming back to games where you spend hours for creating charactes and hours for resolving combats and hours for arguing rules, and hours leafing through supplements and etc. for in the end "Having 20 minutes of fun packed into 4 hours".

We´re even having a campaign of Tenra Bansho Zero right now, but I confess Im on it more for the nice fellas and laughs we give at the table than by anyother reason. (I lie: the hyper-nippon-sengoku premise is too evocative for me to pass)

[sabs]

Because fundementally, games where you are completely at the mercy of the DM for all resolutions suck. The number of DMs I would trust with that kind of power amounts to 4. Most people probably approach 0 as the number of DMs they trust that much.

Even 8 year olds know that Cops and Robbers is going to come down to a popularity contest of who can get the most people to agree with them. Add in the RPG dynamic where 1 person playing is the sole arbitrator of every single action? And it's going to disintegrate in less than 5 sessions.

And many people do not see the point of having 20 minutes of fun packed into 20 minutes of being narrated to by the DM.

[silva]

You dont trust the GM to react to a situational roll.. but trust him to come up with a whole adventure full with encounters, NPCs, plots, etc.

[silva]

I'm not sure how long you've been lurking here before you joined, but...this IS a Tabletop RPG Game Design focused forum

Game design based on the kind of paradigm seen on exception-based power-ups mechanicist masturbation heavens better exemplified by D&D 3.X.

Hint: out of that paradigm, this game design is worth very little.

Hint 2: the roleplaying game sphere comprehends much more than that single paradigm.

Hint 3: using that paradigm for judging games which were not designed under it, is like having a basketball sports critic judging a work of literature.

..with all due respect and all that.

[Aryxbez]

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, you implied doubt, that the Gaming Den's focus is on Game Design (Tabletop RPG's). Your seeking to say otherwise, is proven false by the hundreds of threads, tone, and mindsets in this very forum. Seeking to speak as if we're all wrong, is incredibly ignorant and insulting on your part. I don't care if you have a language issue here, that's no excuse for being a dumb@$$.

Also, I hope you actually read my posts and others, would probably solve a lot of discussions you've been having on here for some time now.

[Kaelik]

You are wasting your time. Look, he just had a hate filled invective rant against 3e D&D even though he has never played it or read the books, and knows nothing about it.

Clearly he doesn't actually give a fuck about reality. He hates the Tomes he hasn't read, Aftersundown he hasn't read, and 3e he hasn't read because... Well because they aren't Apocalypse World. And like many relationships in which you have a dick in your mouth, he has been told that it would be cheating on Apocalypse World's dick if he liked another game.

[K]

I'm not sure how long you've been lurking here before you joined, but...this IS a Tabletop RPG Game Design focused forum

Game design based on the kind of paradigm seen on exception-based power-ups mechanicist masturbation heavens better exemplified by D&D 3.X.

Hint: out of that paradigm, this game design is worth very little.

Hint 2: the roleplaying game sphere comprehends much more than that single paradigm.

Hint 3: using that paradigm for judging games which were not designed under it, is like having a basketball sports critic judging a work of literature.

..with all due respect and all that.

First, a few thousand players is like 0.001% of the gaming community. Hell, for all we know those sales are from impulse buyers who liked the art and flavor text and had no intention of trying to play the game. Maybe they were those completionist collectors who think that it'll be worth something on eBay in twenty years. Maybe they were orders from the authors trying to get the ball rolling on the books.

In short, there is no reason to believe that there are a lot of RPGers who care about the AW paradigm of not having rules that produce predictable results. Remember that the internet means that you can always find the fringe that you belong to even if you are into something weird and incredibly niche (do a search on " looners" if you doubt that). Finding some people on four or five forums is a really easy even if your niche interest is only shared by a few hundred people on the whole damned planet.

Second, you do realize that there is no need for a forum about AW design and that AW has no place in a design forum, right?

AW doesn't need design and so designers don't want to talk about it. There are no knotty mechanical problems that could use feedback, and there is no need to get suggestions for flavorful mechanics because AW doesn't have mechanics in any meaningful sense. You don't have to worry about testing the math of a design when there is no meaningful math and you don't need to talk about innovative designs because AW can be ported to any setting and any genre because it's fundamentally about people telling stories and dicerolls that don't affect that process so profoundly that they might as well be a group nervous tic.

The paradigm of "rules that create predictable results" needs design forums. We have shit to do: problems to talk about, designs to be compared and examined for useful bits, and designs that need testing because they actually produce consistent results and we need to design those results.

The fact that you want to talk about AW on a gaming forum does make you a special snowflake, but only because no one else thinks that AW is a game. It's like you are the guy continually talking about Ford trucks in a deer-hunting forum.... we get that you like Fords, but that has nothing to do with deer-hunting.

[RadiantPhoenix]

It's like you are the guy continually talking about Ford trucks in a deer-hunting forum.... we get that you like Fords, but that has nothing to do with deer-hunting.

Yes it does.

Roadkill

[silva]

K, that first phrase is enough reason for me not reading the rest. But I promise I will do it when have something interesting to say.

EDIT:

Ok, Ive read it. And surprsingly, I kinda agree with you on this:

It's like you are the guy continually talking about Ford trucks in a deer-hunting forum.... we get that you like Fords, but that has nothing to do with deer-hunting.

[rasmuswagner]

Silva, you take pride in your ignorance, yet continue to (badly) discuss the very subject that you are ignorant on.

That's really all that needs to be said about A), your "opinions", and B) your worth as a human being.

[OgreBattle]

Maybe his goal is to create content for grognards.txt

[K]

Maybe his goal is to create content for grognards.txt

I'll never understand the troll communities.

[Mask_De_H]

Having a laugh at someone else's expense is fun, K. But if you're trawling for trollin', always remember to look but don't touch.

[Stinktopus]

Maybe his goal is to create content for grognards.txt

He's not defending 4th Edition. But, just in case, ahem... Does breasts on non-placental reptoids hurt your verisimilitude?

[OgreBattle]

Maybe his goal is to create content for grognards.txt

He's not defending 4th Edition. But, just in case, ahem... Does breasts on non-placental reptoids hurt your verisimilitude?

I'm really bugged that they don't have tails. Tails are an important part of Dragon-guy imagery. What's the goddamn point of being a dragonguy without a tail

*overly large scalyguy images below*

[atanycost]

Maybe his goal is to create content for grognards.txt

He's not defending 4th Edition. But, just in case, ahem... Does breasts on non-placental reptoids hurt your verisimilitude?

I'm really bugged that they don't have tails. Tails are an important part of Dragon-guy imagery. What's the goddamn point of being a dragonguy without a tail

*overly large scalyguy images below*

Or wings, don't forget the wings.