So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
So the new rule is that everybody must be able to tell what you are by looking at you? Sure, aiming for the person in the robes was always a standard strategy in previous editions, but at least it was possible to disguise yourself somewhat if you wanted to be sneaky. This approach leads to lines like, "I see you have a dagger and a hand crossbow. Should I arrest you for theft right now and save us all some trouble?"
It looks like a Striker's schtick is to do lethal amounts of damage and have the ability to attack the target's weakest defense (presumably why the rogue has all these attacks vs. Will, Reflex, and Fortitude). Positioning Attack could be really cheesy, depending on how they word the effects of size on attacks. If it actually does work on giant-sized creatures, they should really change the flavor text to emphasize deceptiveness.
One non-mechanical observation: I hate the long list of characteristics under each power. The 3.x way of describing feats (Requirements, Benefit, and how the benefit differs from normal if applicable) is much easier to comprehend at a glance. I had to read Piercing Strike 2-3 times to figure out how it was different from a standard attack from Level 1-20.
It looks like a Striker's schtick is to do lethal amounts of damage and have the ability to attack the target's weakest defense (presumably why the rogue has all these attacks vs. Will, Reflex, and Fortitude). Positioning Attack could be really cheesy, depending on how they word the effects of size on attacks. If it actually does work on giant-sized creatures, they should really change the flavor text to emphasize deceptiveness.
One non-mechanical observation: I hate the long list of characteristics under each power. The 3.x way of describing feats (Requirements, Benefit, and how the benefit differs from normal if applicable) is much easier to comprehend at a glance. I had to read Piercing Strike 2-3 times to figure out how it was different from a standard attack from Level 1-20.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Absentminded_Wizard at [unixtime wrote:1203840072[/unixtime]]
One non-mechanical observation: I hate the long list of characteristics under each power. The 3.x way of describing feats (Requirements, Benefit, and how the benefit differs from normal if applicable) is much easier to comprehend at a glance. I had to read Piercing Strike 2-3 times to figure out how it was different from a standard attack from Level 1-20.
Yeh, I think thats one of the most telling things. This sneak peak is just really unattractive. Feats always were skeletal, but at least spells had enough that you'd say "hell yeh, I know what this does" without too much work (unless you were working with polymorph, of course).
I mean, did you notice how many things require a light blade? Don't drop your dagger or you'll stop being a playable character.
Heh, as a jailer you'll restrict all daggers from your prisons. Don't want those rogues to even have a chance of attacking you. Swords, spears, or whatever are fine, but even have a dagger in your jail and rogues might get it and escape.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
It does sound pretty stupid - almost as though they're just making these things for Order of the Stick to poke fun at.
It also appears that making new content is going to take longer than before, with the exception of monsters - with them, don't bother assigning hit dice and ability scores and all that so as to get abilities that are roughly in line with the desired level, instead just pick a level, get fundamental stats for that level, then add some options.
But to make a new attack will require the requirements, the usage, what weapons work with it and all that shit, a new weapon will require a huge fuck-off list of abilities that work with it, along with who gets it (or alternatively just say "Counts as" for those purposes), a new class will require build options, new items, a list of attacks to choose from... a lot of bullshit.
It also appears that making new content is going to take longer than before, with the exception of monsters - with them, don't bother assigning hit dice and ability scores and all that so as to get abilities that are roughly in line with the desired level, instead just pick a level, get fundamental stats for that level, then add some options.
But to make a new attack will require the requirements, the usage, what weapons work with it and all that shit, a new weapon will require a huge fuck-off list of abilities that work with it, along with who gets it (or alternatively just say "Counts as" for those purposes), a new class will require build options, new items, a list of attacks to choose from... a lot of bullshit.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
In regards to the bonus they're giving in ability scores, I think that's just a notation thing. Any time you perform an action based on a stat, you use the base modifier and a level-based bonus, and that's where the bonus to damage comes from, rather than increasing your Strength mod AND throwing in a level bonus by its lonesome.
Well, earlier they listed "Strength Bonus and Level Bonus" as things which were multiplied by the 2[W] notation when explaining a preview Paladin Smite. That might have been just them fucking around. In any case they have said that stat bonuses would come faster - as getting +1 to a stat every four levels was "not fun."
In any case, you're probably right that there won't be a separate Level Bonus, but that instead your Strength Modifier and your Dex Modifier will both be Level Dependent. And that right there adds another 1/2 point of damage per level to the calculation.
So it's Strength (C + Level Mod) * 3 + Dexterity (C + Level Mod). Meaning that your Level Mod adds in 4 times. That by itself adds 20 damage from 2nd level to 10th level. All other bonuses combined (feats, Magic Items, continuous powers, Stat increases, expected Party Buffs from the Cleric, etc.) therefore have to add up to 25 damage for the SaW paradigm to scale evenly from 1st to 11th level. And since all that shit is doubled, that is hardly unlikely.
For example: your +3 shortsword of Icy Handjobs is worth 6 damage before we find out what the hell Icy Handjobs even does. Think that between the new "faster stat modifiers" and the scaling bonuses the Warlord is handing out and the Rogue's own feats that we can get an average of 10 base damage during this period?
Edit: Forgot we were talking about the brutal Rogue.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203847898[/unixtime]]
For example: your +3 shortsword of Icy Handjobs is worth 6 damage before we find out what the hell Icy Handjobs even does.
Can I be the first to say I don't want to find out what that does?
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203847898[/unixtime]]In regards to the bonus they're giving in ability scores, I think that's just a notation thing. Any time you perform an action based on a stat, you use the base modifier and a level-based bonus, and that's where the bonus to damage comes from, rather than increasing your Strength mod AND throwing in a level bonus by its lonesome.
Well, earlier they listed "Strength Bonus and Level Bonus" as things which were multiplied by the 2[W] notation when explaining a preview Paladin Smite. That might have been just them fucking around. In any case they have said that stat bonuses would come faster - as getting +1 to a stat every four levels was "not fun."
In any case, you're probably right that there won't be a separate Level Bonus, but that instead your Strength Modifier and your Dex Modifier will both be Level Dependent. And that right there adds another 1/2 point of damage per level to the calculation.
(almost) Definitely not. From the info I've seen so far, its going to work like this:
A normal weapon attack [W], is weapon damage die (d6 or d4 for our rogue, here, since he's stuck with daggers and shortswords) + str mod (which is the same as it is now) +1/2 level (once) + enhancement bonus (which will be easy, since items now are given in terms of levels so you know when to give it to the characters- a +2 flaming sword is a 10th level item). Thats it, as I understand it.
So [W] = d4 +Str +1/2 level + enhancement
For a 10th level rogue with an appropriate magic item, 14 Str and 18 Dex
W= d4+2+5+2 = d4+9
For most of those powers, add dex, so d4+13
for a 2[W] power, 2d4+18 +dex (4), so 2d4 +22.
for torturous strike and a brutal scoundrel, add strength again, so 2d4+24
For sneak attack 2d4+22 +2d6 [+2 again, if brutal thug guy]
And crits give... whatever +d6 based on weapon and magic items stuff.
As for stats advancing faster... I don't know. Haven't seen any comment to that effect. I suspect, particularly since almost all permanent stat boosting is gone, that it will be like Saga- every 4 levels, +1 to two stats. Maybe it will be every 3 levels (feats are apparently going to be every two levels- at least a dev monkey mention that his 12th level character had 6 feats), but I haven't seen any confirmation of that.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1203839595[/unixtime]]
And no offense, some of your complaints here are direct references to ideas I've seen bandied about for any kind of replacement ruleset.
None taken. But I'm not good with numbers, so I just hook onto the things that are "obvious."
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203847898[/unixtime]]
Well, earlier they listed "Strength Bonus and Level Bonus" as things which were multiplied by the 2[W] notation when explaining a preview Paladin Smite. That might have been just them fucking around. In any case they have said that stat bonuses would come faster - as getting +1 to a stat every four levels was "not fun."
I've been saying this for years. Most players disagree, claim that +1 every 4 levels is 'balanced' and 'doesn't need changing'.
I think the designers are just fucking around.
1. Put out shocking 'preview', which is actually a fresh turd of a draft.
2. Watch the forums.
3. Tweak 'official preview' to suit complaints.
I won't believe anything they propose until the book is in my hands.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Stat increases are inherently divergent. I increase the stats that make my attacks better and I don't increase the stats that make me stronger against whatever your attacks happen to target. Increasing attributes is just a convoluted way of increasing BAB without increasing Defense Bonuses.
So no, +1 every four levels isn't balanced. But increasing attributes faster than that is less balanced. Ideally, we'd go back to the old D&D system where your stats didn't go up at all. But that isn't happening. 4e is removing the belt of strength and giving us faster strength increases for going up levels and the ability to temporarily raise our strength during combat.
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So no, +1 every four levels isn't balanced. But increasing attributes faster than that is less balanced. Ideally, we'd go back to the old D&D system where your stats didn't go up at all. But that isn't happening. 4e is removing the belt of strength and giving us faster strength increases for going up levels and the ability to temporarily raise our strength during combat.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203931766[/unixtime]]
So no, +1 every four levels isn't balanced. But increasing attributes faster than that is less balanced. Ideally, we'd go back to the old D&D system where your stats didn't go up at all. But that isn't happening. 4e is removing the belt of strength and giving us faster strength increases for going up levels and the ability to temporarily raise our strength during combat.
I just want to smash my head agasint a wall everytime I see those temporary stat increases. WTF man. Not only are they not balanced, they're also a bitch to calculate. I thought one of the reasons they were removing ability damage and such is that they figured out that it was a pain to recalculate your entire sheet based on your ability scores changing. Then some jackass on the design team decides it'd be good to temporarily boost your strength as a combat buff. At that point they should just tell that guy to get the fuck out because he obviously isn't on the same page as everyone else.
Half the design problems with D&D I think come from the fact that there are multiple designers to it who are actually pulling in opposite directions.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Have any of these temporary stat increases actually been confirmed? I mean, last I heard it could just be that a Belt of Giant Strength adds +5 to one Strength roll per encounter.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Imban at [unixtime wrote:1203950125[/unixtime]]Have any of these temporary stat increases actually been confirmed? I mean, last I heard it could just be that a Belt of Giant Strength adds +5 to one Strength roll per encounter.
Mike Mearls said that increasing your Strength score for one encounter per day did not change the math of the game and was thus not problematic in the way that increasing your strength all the time is.
Take your pick of refutations:
- Add to your strength for one encounter, every encounter by having more than one such item/ability.
- Restrict your self to one encounter per day.
- Acquire several abilities which supposedly don't change the math despite adding to die rolls and stack them together so that you aren't even on the RNG with other people.
- Use some of the above mentioned techniques often enough that your DM is used to you operating at that level and then run out of charges before a major battle.
But yes, he did say that bonus strength for the duration of one encounter was a way to solve the problems caused by having bonus strength all the time. Your guess is as good as mine.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
If Mike Mearls actually said that, uh, that svcks, because that's blatantly dumb.
Well, then I won't even feel bad for a second about adding 3e-style magic items back into my game. So it works out either way!
Well, then I won't even feel bad for a second about adding 3e-style magic items back into my game. So it works out either way!
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Well then what about items and buffs that give the same bonuses as having higher stats, without actually giving stat bonuses?
For instance, STR bonuses in combat are mostly for the benefit of dealing more damage and hitting harder.
+1 melee attacks and melee/throwing damage when it would be +2 STR.
Lifting and pushing and such are less used, and while that does require more STR, one could handle that with a longterm bonus that requires a warmup time to gain benefit of. That way PCs couldn't suddenly gain +2 to every stat, 'lagging' the game as they calculate every minor bonus, if this really is the problem (slowing the game).
You would need at least a minute or maybe 10 for the character to get the pluses.
For instance, STR bonuses in combat are mostly for the benefit of dealing more damage and hitting harder.
+1 melee attacks and melee/throwing damage when it would be +2 STR.
Lifting and pushing and such are less used, and while that does require more STR, one could handle that with a longterm bonus that requires a warmup time to gain benefit of. That way PCs couldn't suddenly gain +2 to every stat, 'lagging' the game as they calculate every minor bonus, if this really is the problem (slowing the game).
You would need at least a minute or maybe 10 for the character to get the pluses.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Thats more likely whats actually going to happen. Its still pretty fucked up, but it gets around the 'No adjusting stats on the fly' thing, which they have declared.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1203847898[/unixtime]]In any case they have said that stat bonuses would come faster - as getting +1 to a stat every four levels was "not fun."
Oh where did I put my cane. You know in my day (1E) sonny, we only got stat bonuses when we became old farts or when some DM home brewed some stupid magic fountain that normally messed us all up real bad, and we had FUN. Fun I tell you. None of this steroid shit I see all the 3E players (and now 4E players) use. We played clean! Clean I tell you. And we had fun!
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Tzor, you old timers were killed by the very living walls, ceiling, and floors of the dungeons.
And that was if walking into an invisible cube-shaped ooze didn't get you first.
I've played the old editions, and can confidently claim 3.x as better in most ways.
As mentioned by others, the overdependency on items for power is both wrong and materialistic, but times change ya know?
Kids want lots of stuff.
And that was if walking into an invisible cube-shaped ooze didn't get you first.
I've played the old editions, and can confidently claim 3.x as better in most ways.
As mentioned by others, the overdependency on items for power is both wrong and materialistic, but times change ya know?
Kids want lots of stuff.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1203925622[/unixtime]]
I think the designers are just fucking around.
1. Put out shocking 'preview', which is actually a fresh turd of a draft.
2. Watch the forums.
3. Tweak 'official preview' to suit complaints.
I won't believe anything they propose until the book is in my hands.
Wow...if they're actually doing this, that would be great, because it would mean the designers are paying attention to what the people on the forums (you know, the people most likely to PLAY the game) are saying, and adjusting the rules to suit.
"Well, they hated Rule #27. Scrap that. On the other hand, there's a lot of support for Rule #31, so let's flesh that out some more."
Call me pessimistic, but...I find that somewhat unlilkely.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1203980553[/unixtime]]
Call me realistic , but...I find that somewhat unlilkely.
Fixed.
In the DMM, "combat advantage" was described as a +2 to attack rolls.
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1203980553[/unixtime]]sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1203925622[/unixtime]]
I think the designers are just fucking around.
1. Put out shocking 'preview', which is actually a fresh turd of a draft.
2. Watch the forums.
3. Tweak 'official preview' to suit complaints.
I won't believe anything they propose until the book is in my hands.
Wow...if they're actually doing this, that would be great, because it would mean the designers are paying attention to what the people on the forums (you know, the people most likely to PLAY the game) are saying, and adjusting the rules to suit.
"Well, they hated Rule #27. Scrap that. On the other hand, there's a lot of support for Rule #31, so let's flesh that out some more."
Call me pessimistic, but...I find that somewhat unlilkely.
Neh. From what I hear the book went to the printers several months ago. This is it.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Huh. As of last week, they were saying they hadn't sent the books off yet.
But its all pretty much done... except for a few things that inexplicably aren't. Hurrah for last minute changes. Put your vote in now for whether drinking potions will be standard or minor actions. Just flip a coin, really. Its what they'll end up doing.
But its all pretty much done... except for a few things that inexplicably aren't. Hurrah for last minute changes. Put your vote in now for whether drinking potions will be standard or minor actions. Just flip a coin, really. Its what they'll end up doing.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Voss at [unixtime wrote:1203987468[/unixtime]]Huh. As of last week, they were saying they hadn't sent the books off yet.
But its all pretty much done... except for a few things that inexplicably aren't. Hurrah for last minute changes. Put your vote in now for whether drinking potions will be standard or minor actions. Just flip a coin, really. Its what they'll end up doing.
Nope. The Developer Kit has been out for several months. See link.
You'll note that it has the whole ruleset in it. Anything not in it now is because they straight-up forgot and someone noticed from the Kit (and I guess they'll probably be tossing in the Errata).
People have noticed that all the "developer videos" have them in the same clothes, lighting, background, etc. Basically, they did all the promo material several months ago.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
Sorry, K, but that hasn't been out for months.
Yes, the promo videos are old, but they've got almost no useful information
From the guy who owns ENworld, about the OGL, posted on January 7th.
http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4 ... quote]WotC announces plans for 4e SRD and OGL: On January 7th 2008, Wizards of the Coast held a courtesy call with the 3rd party publishers who had expressed close interest in gaining advance access to the 4e rules. Attending the call were:
* Adamant Entertainment
* EN Publishing
* Expeditious Retreat Press
* Fantasy Flight Games
* Goodman Games
* Green Ronin Publishing
* Mongoose Publishing
* Necromancer Games
* Paizo Publishing
* Paradigm Concepts
* Privateer Press
On the line for WotC were Scott Rouse, Linae Foster (Licensing Manager), Sara Girard, Andy Collins, Bill Slavicsek, and Chris Perkins.
Their formal announcement can be found here, but here's what we learned from the call.
4e publisher support will be released in two phases.
Phase One is for publishers who want access to the 4e rules early. Taking a lesson from software publishers, WotC will be making available an OGL Designers Kit. This gives early access to rules and is offered to any publisher, not just the ones on the conference call. Access to the kit requires a legitimate business license, a signed NDA, and a one-time $5000 fee.
This kit will be available within a matter of weeks, as soon as several legal logistics are complete. It provides three hardcopy pre-publication versions of the three core rule books, copies of the OGL and SRD, and a FAQ. Publishers will continue to receive updates to these rules as changes are made, one in the beginning of February and possibly one in March. Publishers will also receive advance copies of the final rule books. Importantly, publishers who purchase the kit may begin selling product on August 1, 2008 – earlier than other publishers.
Phase Two is free and begins on June 6th, when the OGL goes live. Any publisher can then produce D&D supplements under the OGL, but these cannot be published until January 1, 2009.
Effectively, this means that publishers who pony up the $5000 fee get four months of advance production time for their products, can sell their products at GenCon and Christmas without a whole lot of competition, and have a five month grace period when theirs are the only 4e products available. Publishers who choose not to pay the fee will enter the market at a later date.
I took notes during the Question and Answer portion of the call, and the following Q&A comes from my notes. In some cases the information is paraphrased instead of an exact quote.
1. What's the current status of the core rules?
The Players Handbook heads to typesetting on Wednesday. The Monster Manual heads off at the end of January, and the Dungeon Masters Guide in the middle of February. Additional changes and corrections will continue to be made in the galley through the end of March, but the rules are largely complete. Lots of playtester feedback, both internal and external, has been incorporated.[/quote]
Last paragraph is the most important. The last book just got out of typesetting, and they planning on tweaking shit almost to the end of March.
The people who paid out the $5000 like idiots may have some access to the rules, but as noted in the very link you posted, its a pre-publication version, which they'll get updates for until launch. The link you posted, by the by, went up the next day, January 8th.
This cake ain't finished yet.
Yes, the promo videos are old, but they've got almost no useful information
From the guy who owns ENworld, about the OGL, posted on January 7th.
http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4 ... quote]WotC announces plans for 4e SRD and OGL: On January 7th 2008, Wizards of the Coast held a courtesy call with the 3rd party publishers who had expressed close interest in gaining advance access to the 4e rules. Attending the call were:
* Adamant Entertainment
* EN Publishing
* Expeditious Retreat Press
* Fantasy Flight Games
* Goodman Games
* Green Ronin Publishing
* Mongoose Publishing
* Necromancer Games
* Paizo Publishing
* Paradigm Concepts
* Privateer Press
On the line for WotC were Scott Rouse, Linae Foster (Licensing Manager), Sara Girard, Andy Collins, Bill Slavicsek, and Chris Perkins.
Their formal announcement can be found here, but here's what we learned from the call.
4e publisher support will be released in two phases.
Phase One is for publishers who want access to the 4e rules early. Taking a lesson from software publishers, WotC will be making available an OGL Designers Kit. This gives early access to rules and is offered to any publisher, not just the ones on the conference call. Access to the kit requires a legitimate business license, a signed NDA, and a one-time $5000 fee.
This kit will be available within a matter of weeks, as soon as several legal logistics are complete. It provides three hardcopy pre-publication versions of the three core rule books, copies of the OGL and SRD, and a FAQ. Publishers will continue to receive updates to these rules as changes are made, one in the beginning of February and possibly one in March. Publishers will also receive advance copies of the final rule books. Importantly, publishers who purchase the kit may begin selling product on August 1, 2008 – earlier than other publishers.
Phase Two is free and begins on June 6th, when the OGL goes live. Any publisher can then produce D&D supplements under the OGL, but these cannot be published until January 1, 2009.
Effectively, this means that publishers who pony up the $5000 fee get four months of advance production time for their products, can sell their products at GenCon and Christmas without a whole lot of competition, and have a five month grace period when theirs are the only 4e products available. Publishers who choose not to pay the fee will enter the market at a later date.
I took notes during the Question and Answer portion of the call, and the following Q&A comes from my notes. In some cases the information is paraphrased instead of an exact quote.
1. What's the current status of the core rules?
The Players Handbook heads to typesetting on Wednesday. The Monster Manual heads off at the end of January, and the Dungeon Masters Guide in the middle of February. Additional changes and corrections will continue to be made in the galley through the end of March, but the rules are largely complete. Lots of playtester feedback, both internal and external, has been incorporated.[/quote]
Last paragraph is the most important. The last book just got out of typesetting, and they planning on tweaking shit almost to the end of March.
The people who paid out the $5000 like idiots may have some access to the rules, but as noted in the very link you posted, its a pre-publication version, which they'll get updates for until launch. The link you posted, by the by, went up the next day, January 8th.
This cake ain't finished yet.
Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
And it went to typesetting a day later.
Sure, they may change a word here or there, and maybe tweak some stats but thats it. If something is in typesetting it means that its done, and they can't add more than a few sentences here or there without mucking up the works.
Note that they said that feedback "has been incorporated" and not "will be incorporated."
Sure, they may change a word here or there, and maybe tweak some stats but thats it. If something is in typesetting it means that its done, and they can't add more than a few sentences here or there without mucking up the works.
Note that they said that feedback "has been incorporated" and not "will be incorporated."
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Re: So, the 4e rogue. Discuss!
True. Now that typesetting and layout are done with computer software, it's much easier to introduce last-minute changes than in the old days of physical pasteboards. It appears WotC has been counting on this fact as part of their development process.
Unfortunately, I think they've been hurrying development too much. If they're still deciding what kind of action certain activities should be, that's evidence that they really should have sat on this for another year and worked these wrinkles out.
Unfortunately, I think they've been hurrying development too much. If they're still deciding what kind of action certain activities should be, that's evidence that they really should have sat on this for another year and worked these wrinkles out.
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At-will: Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon ("sword", range 10/20)
Target: One Creature
Attack: Con vs AC
Hit: [W] + Con, and the target is slowed.