New Edition: Monsters

[JonSetanta]

1198383284[/unixtime]]

*The frozen wastes of Cocytos
Never been there, so I couldn't say.

He speaks of the banks of one of the rivers of Hades. Though I suppose if you go all Dante in it, which it sounds like he is if it's frozen, then it's a frozen lake in the ninth layer of Hell; where Satan himself keeps it cold by flapping his wings while his tears refill it of any water.

That was Koumei, kthxbai.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1198524742[/unixtime]]

1198383284[/unixtime]]

*The frozen wastes of Cocytos
Never been there, so I couldn't say.

He speaks of the banks of one of the rivers of Hades. Though I suppose if you go all Dante in it, which it sounds like he is if it's frozen, then it's a frozen lake in the ninth layer of Hell; where Satan himself keeps it cold by flapping his wings while his tears refill it of any water.

That was Koumei, kthxbai.

It was an accident, let it go.

[Username17]

In an effort to get things back on track here, let's say for the moment that you have a Gnome Gadgeteer. She is small, she's smart, she's tenacious, and she has devices she makes out of steam and gears. If she has time and a lab, she can go back, take those devices apart (or just put them aside) and work up other different devices to take with her.

So. She's level 1, what storywise can her devices do?
She's level 5, what storywise can her devices do?
She's level 10, what storywise can her devices do?
She's level 15, what storywise can her devices do?
She's level 20, what storywise can her devices do?
She's level 25, what storywise can her devices do?
She's level 30, what storywise can her devices do?

Keep in mind that provisionarily, at level 10 she will be able to crush large numbers of the enemies she fought at level 5. And at level 15 she basically wades through hordes of those monsters without fear.

-Username17

[Koumei]

1: These devices aren't altering the story. They are probably knick-knacks that affect the immediate encounter (devices that stop traps from working, actual traps of her own, and minor weapons. Maybe tiny robotic spiders that bite people to piss them off).

5: By this stage, she can definitely pick just about any lock with her button-matching-Simon-Says-minigame-that-every-PC-game-needs-by-law lockpick. Sorry, I got sidetracked there. Anyway, locks suddenly become background scenery. You'll start to need weird glyphs or walls of intricate gears that need special combinations to bypass or whatever. She could have devices that work as basic transport (robo-horses and motorbikes) or little flying servo-skulls and robotic spiders that inject poison or shoot steel cables for web.

10: At this point in time, she can fly. It might be a giant hang glider with a propeller, it might be a helicopter. It might even be a jetpack that shoots fire out the exhaust pipes and sometimes explodes. So if your puzzle is a chasm, then she presents to you the middle finger. You might want to fill the chasm with lava that launches Mario fireballs, or put a vacuum at the bottom or something. She could have huge transport things for fast armoured overland travel, and possibly walks around in a small mecha.

She could begin to make the complex locking systems that lockpicks can't bypass at this point, too.

15: At this stage, there's the Final Fantasy Airship or something. The party can fly about from point A to point B, but you still need somewhere to land, and this is only good for transport: it will merely be a liability in actual combat, save dropping bombs on giant scorpions, and I don't even care. She can also build sentry turrets and reliably make power armour, just in case she thinks transforming the fighter into a Space Marine is a good idea. As for spells she can replicate at this stage, I'm thinking "Fairly impressive ones". After all, she's halfway through the game. So, building large short-lived allies, making lightning storms and splitting the ground open are all viable options.

20: At this stage she can probably start to actually change the colour of landscapes at suck the mana out into big devices. Mostly this will have the effect of fucking the area up, rather than giving her a huge power boost, but maybe it can also be put to good use.

25: I've drawn a blank, so let's say "somewhere between 20 and 20", shall we?

30: Name it. Time machines, if a "you can't travel into your own lifespan." rule is placed. Plane-hopping craft, teleportation machines, mass-production devices... oh, and a cannon that launches actual meteors that can be hundreds of feet wide.

[Username17]

So you're looking at adventures in the 11-20 range being largely based on closing nodes and fighting the demon armies which have already been spawned there; and adventures in the 21-30 range being based largely on dimension hopping and Chrono Trigger time travel?

-Username17

[Koumei]

Yeah, pretty much. Throw in some gigantic creations that only affect the plot in a "they could elect to change the plot by walking their Titan into a city and destroying/capturing/pocketing it." kind of way, too. But basically, yeah.

The time travel idea was just tossed out as a "This is big in the world of sci-fi, inventions and technology. Also, if anyone can do it, it should be high level." way. I understand if people don't want to use it, but with the Chrono-Trigger type rule there, they can't undo what happened last round, but the DM can actually send them out to get the Spirit Blade before the Witch King destroyed it, so that they can fight him in the present.

[Username17]

So transportation is allowed between Yugas (time periods) and Lokas (planes of existence), but not directly through minutes or kilometer, right? Anyone think that teleportation as such should exist or that short duration time travel should be possible?

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Okay, on a 30 level scale with every 5 levels making you roughly 10 times more badass... I'm going to note the appropriate combat encounters to keep me in scale context.

Level 1: Fairy-tale kids
Appropriate encounter is a Tiny toothy goblin whose big advantage is the stealth granted by being Tiny. Gadgets include reaching the high shelf with stilts and a grabby arm, clockwork mice that distract stupid things, and a slingshot that's, like, a double slingshot.

Level 5: Elite soldiers
Appropriate encounter is 10 Tiny goblins, or a nameless enemy elite, like an Uruk-Hai. Gadgets include smoke flares, cricket-boxes, and bear traps.

Level 10: Standard Fantasy Badass (or Fellowship member)
Appropriate encounter is 10 Uruk-Hai or a Cave Troll. Gadgets include spring-boots that jump hella high, convincing mechanical decoys that can distract intelligent things, and a steam-powered weed-whacker to clear away Swarms.

Level 15: Fanboy Fantasy Badass (or Kratos)
Appropriate encounter is 10 Cave Trolls or an enormous legendary beast, like a 30-foot armored furnace golem minotaur. Gadgets include most of the Girl Genius setting, from sentient clockworks to lightning cannon.

Level 20: World-conquerer
Appropriate encounter is 10 enormous legendary beasts, or one ridiculous legendary beast, like a fanboy's Dragon. Gadgets include stuff you'd use to conquer the world by your damn self, like mass persistent mind control, teleporters, von Neumann soldiers, weather machines.

Level 25: World-shaper
Appropriate encounter is 10 fanboy's Dragons, or Loki. This is where you redecorate the world to look like you want it to, and have giant gears that reverse continental drift, a ray that shrinks cities to portable size, and mountain-removing bombs.

Level 30:
Appropriate encounter is Loki and his family or one Primordial from Exalted. Your devices alter fundamental principles, like an assembly line that produces a 25th hour for each day or something.

edit: In retrospect, I agree very much with Koumei.

Also, teleportation should definitely be possible. Short-period time-travel would be cool if it didn't create do-over situations. It's neat as a special effect for some powers, like where your future selves show up to help out in a fight, but Prince of Persia-style 'second chances' are tedious at the table.

[the_taken]

I do like pin angel's idea of the level appropriate challenges for certain levels.

I don't time travel should be possible unless it's a plot device. Prince of Persia style "second chances" should be limited to the highest level of re-roll.

[Koumei]

I don't mind teleportation in metres. You know, like the Warlock does. That's useful. Precise teleportation in kilometres is the problem, especially when combined with divination. See: Scry and Die.

That being said, a workaround could totally be built-in to prevent that from happening.

Those encounters are more or less what I was thinking. Goblins and animals at the first few levels (once again, I'm not actually willing to play a low level game, but a game isn't going to exist that starts you off fighting the good stuff at level 1, and there are always enough DMs that agree that I can just be in a game that starts at 5th, or 10th or whatever). At 5th, elite, powerful orcs. Not orc heroes with names and unique abilities - at 10th level, all 10 of those orcs will be exactly the same - but still fairly decent. It gets cooler from there on out.

[Catharz]

Here are a few sample 1st-level Gadgereer ('Inventor', 'Tinkerer') abilities.

Clockwork spy: This is a little (say, 4" diameter) spider that you wind up. It the records everything it hears to a miniscule wax drum and everything it sees to a microfiche movie reel while doing whatever you instructed it to do. It's hard to see and almost completely silent when stationary, and fairly loud when in motion. When you pick it up you can use a specialized device to play back the video, but be warned: a rival gadgeteer might be able to do the same! Its attributes are pathetic.
* I'm not sure the level of control you want to give players over this. Radio or even wired links should come later, but it should probably act as a moderately stupid but trained summon.

Hand bomb: You've delved into the art of Alchemy and learned how to bring down your enemies with fiery destruction! This is an area effect which activates the round after you throw it. It creates a 15' radius explosion. The DCs are Int-based. This item does not count against your gadget limit, but requires specialized training to use.

Clockwork rifle: You've managed to improve greatly on the heavy crossbow, creating a weapon which fires shaftless bolts and re-cocks itself automatically. This ranged attack has a Wis-based attack roll and Str-based damage.


Level two gadgets:
Clockwork bomber: Combining you skill at bomb-making and automation, you've created a clockwork spy which can explode, dealing damage as a hand bomb. Unfortunately this leaves no space for recording equipment.

Fly spy: You've managed to lighten the clockwork spy design enough to give it wings rather than legs. It's still loud while airborne.

Steam servant: The power of steam automation allows this tin man to perform almost all of the duties of a man-servant and bodyguard, with far greater loyalty.


I haven't been looking so much at the balance of these abilities as what I can imagine a low-level Gadgeteer doing.


[Edit]
As for long-range teleportation, I see a whole category of 'Ritual Magic' which does what are mostly story effects and requires a long time to activate. At the location of teleportation there would be obvious manifestation of the magic (i.e. a giant glowing blue mandala on the ground and wavering air). Teleportation would also leave the users momentarily disoriented.
The "scry" part would be a ritual too.

[Fwib]

I think any gadgets you give out to non-gadgeteers should fail spectacularly if possible on a failed int check to use - isn't that the spirit of gadgeteering? (although checks should be reactively easy, since how hard is 'push the button, and then throw at enemy'?)

[Surgo]

Also gives a great reason to actually be a gadgeteer, instead of have a gadgeteer cohort.

[Koumei]

Bugger it, if you have gadgeteer devices actually explode as soon as they are touched by a non-gadgeteer (except special permanent devices that have a hard limit), then you don't actually need to invent grenades: anything you use becomes a grenade when thrown at someone else.

[Catharz]

1198714460[/unixtime]]Bugger it, if you have gadgeteer devices actually explode as soon as they are touched by a non-gadgeteer (except special permanent devices that have a hard limit), then you don't actually need to invent grenades: anything you use becomes a grenade when thrown at someone else.

If they have to try to use it it's a different story. Flavor-wise I'm all for Int-checks to understand devices, but that sort of a mechanic requires careful balancing.

Gadgets should be split up into two groups: Gadgets, which require constant maintenance and can be cannibalized to build new gadgets quickly, and Gear, which degrades at a more normal rate and can be generalized use-wise (and is therefore limited in quantity only by weight and bulk).

[Draco_Argentum]

1198683623[/unixtime]]Anyone think that teleportation as such should exist or that short duration time travel should be possible?

Short range teleports are just like running really fast, those should be in.

I'm against any time travel but consider short hops the most obnoxious.

[JonSetanta]

1198739737[/unixtime]]

1198683623[/unixtime]]Anyone think that teleportation as such should exist or that short duration time travel should be possible?

Short range teleports are just like running really fast, those should be in.

I'm against any time travel but consider short hops the most obnoxious.

Fuckin seconded all the way.

And LOL at meters.. heh

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Time themed magic is fine, but traveling back in time just creates stupid in a game.

Teleportation should be in, scry and die out. You just need to create a mechanic so that it isn't possible. Maybe create a more available version of a dimensional anchored hallow spell. Or maybe long range teleportation magic is dependant upon reaving the fabric of reality and can't operate (teleport to) near powerful creatures. So, for example you can't teleport to any place within one mile of a creature whose CR is equal to 1/2 yours or higher. Or something.

[Username17]

There are lots of potential teleport setups which don't involve scy & die.

• Portal Countdown In order to teleport, you perform a mighty ritual of vast power. It creates a big glowing thing on the other end that turns into a portal in a moderate and knowable amount of time.
  
  
• Beacons In order to teleport, you have to actually get some place first, and then you can set up some sort of mystical trigger to return to it.
  
  
• Fixed World Locations You can teleport to Castle Dunthar, but you show up at he foutain in the courtyard, and you do this everytime, and the residents of Dunthar actually know that this is where people teleport into.

Inaccuracy, risk, and several other techniques have been tried but not been particularly successful.

-Username17

[Crissa]

I do like the idea of the magic-fountains tweaking the effect of some magics - like teleport - making them ineffectual within a certain amount of range.

'We need to teleport in 2km outside and march in under the force screen.'

-Crissa

[Koumei]

1198747937[/unixtime]]and LOL at meters.. heh

I... don't get the joke. What's so funny about metres? Normal people use the metric system*

*Note: The British are not normal. They stick with Imperial just to spite the French, which is an admirable goal most of the time.

[Cielingcat]

I prefer the "portal" idea.

[Koumei]

Now you're thinking with portals.

I'm not sure which idea I like most. They all have benefits.

Portal: Looks really cool, and you can go anywhere, but Scry and Die won't really work, as they can re-build the entire dungeon around your plan of where to go.

Beacon: This makes the "Zip back to town for healing" routine a given, and reminds me of Castle of the Winds' "Rune of Return" and Diablo's "Town Portal". On the other hand, it can lead to interesting espionage things, where you sneak into the place when it isn't so much of a problem (or you wander in during open hours or whatever), then teleport back later on.

If you simply need an attuned item in place, then you send a stealthy person by foot to set the teleport beacon down, then teleport the Terminator squ- er, the party to that spot, but risk the minion getting killed and the beacon tampered with (or dangled over a pit of acidic spikes).

Fixed Locations: This makes it rather simple. It saves travel time, and can get you out of a jam, but won't get you into the ideal place you want to be. If you also have to visit the place first, then we're playing Diablo 2 with Waypoints, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as we don't get stuck with the rest of the Diablo 2 shit.

[Catharz]

There's no reason that you can't use both "beacon" and "portal" methods. Beacons are pretty much word of recall, and give interesting options for sneaky guys to help their less sneaky friends. The beacon itself would be detectable but subtle. You'd want to put it out of direct sight if you were going to do something like that. Anybody can 'attune' to a beacon by spending an action (if they can use beacon-based transport in the first place).

And then you have portals for getting to places you haven't been to or didn't mark, and to transport lots of stuff both ways.

[Edit]
And fixed locations are just less versatile beacons.

[the_taken]

Interestingly, I used the beacon method in Unreal Tournament during CTF games. Run in with the team while they went for the flag, place the beacon in a corner near the flag. After we got the to our base, I'd teleport back and dodge the packs of noobs trying to get back to their base. It seriously took my opponents years to catch on, at which point I was sick of the game anyway.

Yes, this means I'm pro beacon method. Let's put it in the early teens.

All three methods are acceptable.