Unsorted Material

[JonSetanta]

Expendables should not be accounted for. They are one-shots. The limit for these should be by quantity rather than overlapping effect, as in the amount one may carry depends on physical capacity and places to put them.
Maybe potions and other one-shots could have reduced durations, so that even if they are stacked like 20 at one time, by the moment a warrior chugs the 20th the first few begin wearing off, making such strategies wasteful and ill-advised.

Accessibility is another problem; where are these things stored? On a belt? In a bag? On a beer cap with 2 bottle holders and big straws?
Know how dangerous having too many liquid containers on the outside of ones body can be when hit by, say, an area effect?
One Sonic spell could ruin an entire 10-potion array, tho if the character is retarded enough to have that many potions they deserve such a comical fate.

My argument is that potions really aren't worth accounting for, both material-wise and effect. They are far too insignificant compared to the power of unlimited-use or auto-refreshing charge items.

[Fwib]

1188414027[/unixtime]]Expendables should not be accounted for. They are one-shots. The limit for these should be by quantity rather than overlapping effect, as in the amount one may carry depends on physical capacity and places to put them.

Given that we are assuming Wish economy here, all characters from moderately low levels could have stupendous quantities of potions in their extradimensional spaces.

Maybe potions and other one-shots could have reduced durations, so that even if they are stacked like 20 at one time, by the moment a warrior chugs the 20th the first few begin wearing off, making such strategies wasteful and ill-advised.

That sounds like a problem for paperwork-keeping track of all those effects.

Accessibility is another problem; where are these things stored? On a belt? In a bag? On a beer cap with 2 bottle holders and big straws?

Extradimensional space (Handy Haversack for the accessibility, probably)

Know how dangerous having too many liquid containers on the outside of ones body can be when hit by, say, an area effect?
One Sonic spell could ruin an entire 10-potion array, tho if the character is retarded enough to have that many potions they deserve such a comical fate.

a) Extradimensional space. b)Need to roll a 1 on your save for items to take damage - so make sure you have a reroll available. - reduces the odds a lot.

My argument is that potions really aren't worth accounting for, both material-wise and effect. They are far too insignificant compared to the power of unlimited-use or auto-refreshing charge items.

If you have enough potions (and with the Wish cconomy, you do) then they are effectively unlimited-use items.

[edit] Hmmm... that doesn't look nice - maybe next time I try that, I'll use colour-changing instead.

[CalibronXXX]

It's more or less been established that one shot items are legacy bullshit and are bad for the game. The only thing to do about potions and scrolls as they stand is to get rid of them.

[Ecureuil_Diabolique]

I think I have an idea for potions, but you guys probably won't like it. I'll throw it out there just in case though.

What if whoever made the potion has to use a spell slot of the appropriate level and it won't be unlocked until the potion is used or the caster dismisses it (causing the potion to be useless).

This would cause potions to be much more rare seeing as casters will want to keep their spell slots open and buying them will be difficult and risky (Caster could just take the money and run, dismissing the magic in the potion).

So is it good, bad, whatever?

[the_taken]

Sorry Mr. Demon Squirrel, I don't like your idea. I really do believe in the one shot item that can be stored up magic for later use. It's like putting money in the bank. Keep it for later.

[RandomCasualty]

I don't really like one shot items.

One shots work fine when they're handed out as treasure only. I mean, in 2nd edition, you picked up a potion and that was cool, but you really had to consider when you wanted to use it, because you weren't likely to get another one.

The concept however doesn't transfer well to purchaseable or wish created magic items. In the former case, disposable magic items means you burn character wealth permanently for benefits now. since character wealth is supposed to accumulate, that obviously doesn't work.

The wish economy is even worse, because potions are no longer limited use. You can very well have enough that they might as well be infinite, and are more like continuous or at will items than one shot items. Consider that in the wish economy you can pretty much wish for as many scrolls as you want, and thus have racks of scrolls of gate or maze lying on your shelf. Infinite spells.

I generally advise people not to play with charged or one shot items at all.

[Prak]

1188374973[/unixtime]]

1188349066[/unixtime]]
So basically the only control over creating magic items is the DM hosing his PCs by not giving them time to work?

If you assume a high magic game with planar cities that you can swap hope for magic items in then you don't need a lot of control on magic item creation. Making stuff just doesn't need to be harder than kicking some guy's head in and swapping his loot for stuff you want.

actually I think what it means is that one can simply say his character does some work on his items while everyone else is resting up for the next adventure. It's like the House building example, Item creation can eiter happen in a montage ending with the subtitle "Six Months Later" or it can be spaced out around adventures with no actual work occuring "on screen".

[Crissa]

One-shots need to be classed by effect. Either they're instants (and you can use them at a certain rate) or they're duration (and you can only have so many active).

For another game's examples, both of which are very bad:
WoW used 'if they had all the possible one-shots' as a balancing point, meaning that equal CR assumed you had everything possible...
...And then they replaced that with 'nothing stacks' and still assumed the balance point of having the right one-shot at the right time.

Neither are good ideas, nor is the 'everything stacks' version D&D has.

But that's why I gave my take on it, first.

-Crissa

[Ecureuil_Diabolique]

1188419997[/unixtime]]Sorry Mr. Demon Squirrel, I don't like your idea. I really do believe in the one shot item that can be stored up magic for later use. It's like putting money in the bank. Keep it for later.

I figured as much. Personally I'm starting to think it's a bad idea too, although I still think it's interesting (which really doesn't amount to anything, sadly. D; ).

Well yeah, I suppose it's back to lurking around and seeing what the rest of you come up with.

[Username17]

1188423474[/unixtime]]

1188374973[/unixtime]]

1188349066[/unixtime]]
So basically the only control over creating magic items is the DM hosing his PCs by not giving them time to work?

If you assume a high magic game with planar cities that you can swap hope for magic items in then you don't need a lot of control on magic item creation. Making stuff just doesn't need to be harder than kicking some guy's head in and swapping his loot for stuff you want.

actually I think what it means is that one can simply say his character does some work on his items while everyone else is resting up for the next adventure. It's like the House building example, Item creation can eiter happen in a montage ending with the subtitle "Six Months Later" or it can be spaced out around adventures with no actual work occuring "on screen".

Pretty much. And it's important to wrap your mind around the fact that it'll be this way regardless of what "costs" are associated with item creation.

So it was our intention to cap item creation's possibilities to items that wouldn't particularly unbalance the game. That's why we had the basic bonuses of magic items scale to the level of the people using them. And it's also what the (at this time incoherrent and unfinished) masterpiece rules were about. The idea was that you could make items that were below your level all day. And indeed, you could take an arbitrarily long time off and make an arbitrarily large number of them if you cared - but between the 8 item limit and the fact that only one of them was "masterpiece" level for your level - it wouldn't be game breaking.

Which of course is where potions come to fist the ass of game balance. A satisfactory solution for those little scamps was not devised.

-Username17

[Captain_Bleach]

Seriously, Frank, are you really this... I don't know the word for it... worked up about d20 games, or do your post that way for show?

[erik]

Heh, you think this is worked up?

[Koumei]

If he were actually that worked up, I doubt medicine would be taking the priority.

"Saving lives, or making potions work? Damnit, we have people here with over nine thousand spell effects on them!"

[RandomCasualty]

1188438071[/unixtime]]
Which of course is where potions come to fist the ass of game balance.

Best quote ever.

[Bigode]

Seriously, Frank, are you really this... I don't know the word for it... worked up about d20 games, or do your post that way for show?

What the fvck? Is it my impression, or, for you, caring about stuff's anathema? Seriously, what's not getting worked up for you? Do you see flowery, cuddly language as a priority, or what?



Frank: I'll come back when I have more time for proofreading (in this case, mostly hunt the unfinished paragraphs) and more involved questions; but, for now, just a simple one: would anything really noteworthy happen if deflection bonuses were +level/3? The values would be 1 point higher most of the time, cap at +2, and I'd like the symmetry of having everthing be either +level or +level/3.

P.S.: aside from that, I find it mindbogglingly hilarious that the Book of Gears in the end heralds what I've done from my third campaign - no XP, GP's basically inconsequential.

P.P.S.: hey, potions are medicine (and the health of game balance's ass is too)! Why do you think he's so worked up about it? :hides:

[Captain_Bleach]

1188502404[/unixtime]]What the fvck? Is it my impression, or, for you, caring about stuff's anathema? Seriously, what's not getting worked up for you? Do you see flowery, cuddly language as a priority, or what?

No, he just seems to swear all the time.

Not to mention this post in The Rebalanced Paladin thread:

* If you weren't kidding about the paladin spells, I will kill your family. Paladin Spells are a joke. They are lower level than real spells and Wisdom is a Paladin dump stat, so the Save DCs are laughable.

Death threats, even fake death threats, are not something to be taken lightly. I sincerely doubt that you were serious in the matter, but it is still in incredibly poor taste.

[virgil]

This stuff has gotten me curious about the idea of making 'monster classes' instead of the current system of throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if it sticks, allowing balance to exist for any level.

But how would one go about making classes for turtles, elephants, butterfly swarms, ghasts, will-o-the-wisps, etc?

[angelfromanotherpin]

1188511359[/unixtime]]But how would one go about making classes for turtles, elephants, butterfly swarms, ghasts, will-o-the-wisps, etc?

Well, most of them run into the Fighter problem that they don't really have theme-appropriate crap to do at higher levels of the game. It's worse, really, because Fighters can thematically go Karate Kid and whip out all kinds of crazy kung-fu tricks, while a turtle is just a turtle.

The answer is to make the animal classes short, because there really is only so far that beaks and shells can take you. After that, they have to multiclass.

Crap, now I'm thinking of a Gryphon as a Lion 4/Eagle 2 build and that can't be healthy.

[cthulhu]

What about gamera or whatever the hell the name of the giant turtle from godzilla is that breaths radioactive fire.

Or are you imaginging some sort of 'really huge' monster prestige class?

[Jacob_Orlove]

It could always just take levels in Giant.

[virgil]

In the Wish Economy section, there's mention of a wizard only having one 'masterpiece' magic item per level. What is that talking about?

[Bigode]

1188517625[/unixtime]]In the Wish Economy section, there's mention of a wizard only having one 'masterpiece' magic item per level. What is that talking about?

It's the tentative rule of a crafter only being able to craft one item using their best crafting abilities - sort of like "all other items you make use a lower CL".

[JonSetanta]

Fwib: The problem here is extradimensional pockets, from your examples. And when it comes to Wish economy, well. That's self explanatory.
Time travel, instant relocation, bending reality like a demigod, these things all break credibility of SciFi and Fantasy genres, yet why do people insist on including them?
Overblown pseudo-science/magic practically ruined the first Star Trek, let alone Forgotten Realms... ughh

Damn I fell behind, losing internet for a day and a half.
That's what I get for trying to switch from Kerio Firewall to Zonealarml; blue screen of deaths, sudden-reboots when connecting to internet, and general loss of ALL firewalls.
Scrubbing registries, digging for 'complete uninstall' utilities, and ample reboots later, I'm back on track.. and.. using Windows Firewall since neither will install now.
Here's to Sunbelt/Kerio and Zonelabs! May your software ever suck.

Woops, more to add:

1188511884[/unixtime]]

1188511359[/unixtime]]But how would one go about making classes for turtles, elephants, butterfly swarms, ghasts, will-o-the-wisps, etc?

Well, most of them run into the Fighter problem that they don't really have theme-appropriate crap to do at higher levels of the game. It's worse, really, because Fighters can thematically go Karate Kid and whip out all kinds of crazy kung-fu tricks, while a turtle is just a turtle.

The answer is to make the animal classes short, because there really is only so far that beaks and shells can take you. After that, they have to multiclass.

I like that. And not to spoil anything, but.. oh what the hell, I'll spoil it.
4th Ed with have 'monster roles' very similar to this.
PC classes too.
Nevertheless, that doesn't mean anyone else can't make their own. In fact, judging from history, it would probably be better if WOTC didn't make 'animal levels' since they would just fuck it up and errata them repeatedly.
If you're at a loss, how about categorizing loosely by Class (or if really weird, Phylum.. for like... oozes, invertebrates, etc)

[COUNTURL=http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi708/classify/ ... index.html]http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi708/classify/ ... index.html[/COUNTURL]

Although, mammalia would need more subgroups like Predator, Scavenger, and Herd Beast. They could be subtypes, or PrCs haha

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Actually, having a griffin as a Lion4/Eagle2 is an awesome idea. It just will be difficult to have it scale past level 6 or so when animals stop being a real threat.

But seriously, if you had a couple 4-level classes for various animals, it could be a "pick your own monster" kind of build. It would be inherently awesome to fight the Turtle1/Lion2/Planar Beast 3, which, of course, is an animal with a moderate NA (shell), sharp claws (but not teeth), Pounce, Rake, Resistance to Fire/Acid/Electricity/Cold 10, SR 6?, and a breath weapon.

[CalibronXXX]

Planar Beast probably wouldn't give something like SR 2 per level or whatever you were thinking of to come up with that completely worthless amount of SR. It would definitely scale; something like HD+5, with a +1 increase on three quarters of the Planar Beast levels. Natural Armor probably wouldn't need to really scale if you decided to stop taking a monster class that provided it, or provided less. Breath weapon damage would need to scale too.