4e Verisimilitude

[virgil]

Crissa makes a valid point, although many of those cited flying monsters don't actually have ranged capability unless someone is riding them with bows, in which case even in the stories the response is simple; hide underneath a rock until they pass you by or try go melee with you.

[Draco_Argentum]

Dragons are typically high level. Gryphons etc have no ranged attack.

One of the complaints against 3.x is that melee brutes dominate a PC's melee numbers so some tweaking required there.

That leaves harpies and sprites.

[Username17]

Imps: Low level, fly, cast spells.
Mephits: As above.
Sprites: As above.
Cherubs/Lanterns: As above.
Will-o-wisps: Fly, some versions have ranged attacks.
Manticores: Fly, shoot spines.
Chimera: Fly, Breath Fire
Harpies: Fly, Cast Spells, Use Weapons

And that's just iconic stuff. D&D has classic elements such as young dragons in at level 4, Marrash at level 5, and even Corralax at level 1 which are all pretty cool. And Griphons and Pegasi can carry a character armed with a bow. That is the entire point.

The flying archer is a fundamental and iconic part of the game.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Correct. So is melee guy who doesn't fly.

I think the problem here is pretty obvious.

[virgil]

While the problem is obvious, so is the solution; leave the grounded melee guy in the woods to get eaten by bears.

And once again, flight is not the only ability that causes problems. Superior mobility, combined with ranged attacks, are a deciding factor for many a melee brute. Also, melee brutes do not stop existing once wall-walking or flight enters the picture, because they can still be used without being target practice; they're just not going to be a threat when meandering mindlessly on a field.

[Koumei]

Good thinking. When the melee brute is surrounded by fast runners, fliers, invisible people and ghosts, it's his job to step his game up and match them, not theirs to slow down for him.

As foes, melee brutes are only likely to be thrown in as actual challenges if the environment forces people to stay within their reach. As players, they need to accept that sometimes they'll be riding a horse/pegasus, or using a ring of wings, or occasionally even pulling out a bow - sometimes a spellcaster can't cast their favourite type of spells, after all.

[Bigode]

Leave the melee idiot to die, and use the melee [something able to counter flight, of which there's a bunch of varieties].

[Talisman]

Thing is, all those monsters exist in real-world mythology. Who beat 'em there? A guy with a sword. The Sword-Wielding Hero TM is a staple archetype of fantasy, but the Long-Range Plinking Guy TM isn't. Even Robin Hood, perhaps the most famous quasi-mythical archer, fought hand-to-hand a large percentage of the time.

Let's face it: engaging some dreadly beastie with three feet of sharpened steel is heroic. It may not always be smart, but it's heroic. Staying 250' away and lobbing weenie attacks until it drops, while the melee guys sit around exchanging knock-knock jokes, is lame...it may be smart tactically, but it's pathetic from a standpoint of "adventure" and "heroism" and "myth."

I am all in favor of a system that nerfs the LRPG in favor of the SWH. Frankly, this is the best thing I've heard about 4e.

[Crissa]

Uhh...

In whose mythology were any of those defeated with a sword and no flight?

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1204656810[/unixtime]]Uhh...

In whose mythology were any of those defeated with a sword and no flight?

Well I don't know about mythology, and I honestly don't really care. Mythology just isn't very consistent enough to make a game out of. Basically it's magic tea party. Paul Bunyan would grow and shrink in each story. Sometimes he'd just be 12 feet tall and other times he'd be 500 ft tall. I honestly don't even care about myths and tall tales.

I'd rather focus on copying fantasy literature, fantasy movies, fantasy shows and maybe even video games.

And none of those feature, the guy plinking away at shit from a flying mount. Conan defeats all his enemies without flight and with his sword, as do all the characters in Lord of the Rings, Elric does the same, and hell so do most of the characters in fantasy novels set in D&D worlds, like the Forgotten Realms novels (at least the ones I've read). Most video game RPG characters don't fly (at least not without an airship or something, and they don't fly in combat beyond float based levitation to avoid earthquake spells).

The flying fighter in plate mail seems to be a D&D thing alone, because I really can't place it anywhere else. Hell, even in Record of Lodoss War, Parn and Ashrum don't go flying around when they're fighting people. They do jump attacks, but they don't need to fly.

I'm not seeing why people think flight is absolutely necessary. In the majority of modern fantasy stories, characters don't fly, especially not in the middle of combat.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Conan defeats all his enemies without flight and with his sword

Read a book.

as do all the characters in Lord of the Rings

Read a book.

Elric does the same

Read a book!

[RandomCasualty]

1204662452[/unixtime]]
Read a book.

So maybe there's some obscure references where the characters do it once in the series. That doesn't prove anything beyond pointless nitpicking.

Bard still kills the dragon in The Hobbit with an arrow. I mean, this is a real tough one... flying creature, use a ranged weapon. There's a tough leap of logic.

Aragorn and Elric still fight the majority of their battles on land without magical flight. And I still don't remember Elric fighting a battle in the air at all actually, though it may have been one of the books in the series I didn't read.

Still, if it happened like once or twice in a series of lots of battles, it doesn't even matter. The point is that the guys managed fine all those other battles without flight. You don't need permanent always on flight. You just don't.

[angelfromanotherpin]

So maybe there's some obscure references where the characters do it once in the series. That doesn't prove anything beyond pointless nitpicking.

I'm curious. When you say 'that doesn't prove anything,' is it with the same authority that you said 'Conan defeats all his enemies without flight and using his sword?' Seriously, you claim to want to emulate a source, and then your statements prove that you don't actually know the source well enough to cite it accurately. That means you want to emulate something that exists only in your own head; which is fine, but don't claim it has the resonance of fantasies the rest of us have shared in.

[JonSetanta]

1204662218[/unixtime]]
The flying fighter in plate mail seems to be a D&D thing alone, because I really can't place it anywhere else. Hell, even in Record of Lodoss War, Parn and Ashrum don't go flying around when they're fighting people. They do jump attacks, but they don't need to fly.

But that's entering the Anime Realm, where grognards seem to be allergic to the very air itself.
In the Anime Realm, most characters can jump retarded crazy high, be they samurai, spellcaster, schoolgirl (A-Ko or Sailor Moon ), samurai with katanas, tentacle rape demon, ninja, mecha pilot, or samurai. It puts everyone on 'equal footing' since the barrier of distance is effectively removed; the characters are more concerned about training harder and power levels and hurrrrr than locomotion.

And about Parn and Ashrum: they were equipped with godly powerful swords by the end, when they did the dragon slayins'. That's another fallacy in itself, where warriors need equips to survive, but mentioned just to prove a point that they fit the standard warrior archetype too well.

Look at Gara in the Bastard series. He's a ninja, but can hold his own against myriad spellcasters. Hell, all the best warriors know spells (they just don't know as many as dedicated spellcasters)
Why?
Because they couldn't survive in a highly magical setting without magic. Dur.

From my viewpoint, it's a matter of resistance within the Western culture gaming community at-large.
When enough fans accept the fact that it's OK for warriors to cast spells and integrate magic into the warrior archetype, the issue is resolved.
Sure, there will always be naysayers. There's a grognard in every group, really. But when the majority swings to Anime Realm, the game does too.

[Crissa]

I dunno, just in the stuff I've read, the guy with the sword if he was fighting something that flew either had to find someone who was a ranged specialist - like in the Hobbit - or did a grappling maneuver after turtling to provoke an attack, or had access to a source of flight.

How was the Roc defeated? (hide)

Harpies? (entangle)

Flying Dragon? (ranged)

You guys mention these heroes of yours, but you don't mention how they'd defeat each of those creatures. Specifically, mythology says Harpies would just fly up and drop feces or rocks on people until they win or are injured. In melee, they'd grapple, fly, and drop the opponent.

I do read books. And in the books that don't have flying protagonists - there's no flying enemies.

Even Beowolf in the recent stupid movie used turtling, ranged combat, and super leap/grapple to defeat a flying foe. And that was because there was only the one flying foe.

The rest of the stuff has flight. Magic carpets, flying mounts, flying contraptions, pixies, pixie dust, super leap, springy clouds, jumping from tree branch to tree branch or spar to jig or rock to Roc.

-Crissa

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Um... Legolas... you know... the quote:
"you have my sword" "...my axe" "...my bow"

Come to think of it, almost ALL of the elves in LoTR (the movie, assuming we haven't read shit ) use bows... from the top of the castle walls... against the melee brutes/orcs.

And the orcs used crossbows (because they suck).

Also, who doesn't carry a loaded crossbow? There are very few characters that a loaded crossbow is a poor addition to.

Also LoTR, the bigass Uruk-kai killed Boromir... you know... with the arrows.

So, what weapon do you think that the famous Dragonriders (used everywhere) use in their fights? I'll give you a clue: not a sword.

[Talisman]

Well...

gryphons: I actually haven't found any legends of heroes fighting gryphons...gryphons appeared more like weird wildlife than supernatural monsters.

dragons: Where to start?
- St George and the Dragon (spear)
- Fafnir, slain by Sigurd with his sword Gram
- Unnamed dragon that killed, and was killed by, Beowulf
- The Gorynych, a Russian dragon, first subdued by the hero Dobrynya with a hat (!) and later killed with a whip (!!)
-The Lambdon Worm, grappled to death by the Lord of Lambdon's son
- Ladon, a Greek dragon, slain by Heracles
- Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent, hammered to death by Thor at Ragnarok

pegasus: All right...Pegasus (proper name) was actually an ally to the Greek hero Bellerophon, and there are therefore no legends of a hero slaying Pegasus with a sword (or anything else).

rocs: Like the gryphon, rocs were wildlife, not adversaries. I could not locate any legends of heroes slaying a roc with a sword...or, to be fair, with a bow, or magic, or escaping from them by flying.

harpies: The Harpies were driven off by the Boreads, sons of the North Wind , who could fly. Ya got me here.

sprites: Sprites, pixies, and faeries in general do not appear as the adversaries; they are annoyances, clue-givers, or scenery. I don't know of any legends where they're slain by a sword-wielding hero OR any where they're either plinked to death or escaped from by flight.

giant giants: Several choices:
- Polyphemus the Cyclops was blinded by Odysseus with a pointy stick
- Many, many giants were hammered to death by Thor
- Jack the Giant Killer caught Giant #1 in a pit trap, strangled Giants #2 and #3, tricked Giant #4 into stabbing himself, and beheaded the final giant.

ents: Ents were invENTed by JRRT, and since they're good guys, there are no tales of heroes killing them at all.

I couldn't back up all of these, but with the exception of harpies, dragons and giants, I also didn't find any legends where they were slain by either archers or flying heroes. With giants and dragons this is to be expected, as they are far and away the most universal "bad guys" listed here.

Edit: Damn, lots of posts while I was hitting Wikipedia.
I'm not saying the flying/anime fighter is bad, nor the archer. I AM saying that the ground-bound melee warrior should be a valid option. He may not rule in every situation...but no once character achetype should be uber in every situation. That's what you call a "challenge."

[Crissa]

Uhh, didn't those dragons you're mentioning... Not actually fly?

Also, wasn't David a ranged-combat user vs Goliath, a giant?

-Crissa

[Talisman]

St George's dragon had wings. Beowulf's dragon was a flier. Give me time and I'll come up with more examples, if you insist.
I didn't know you meant "exclusively flying dragon."

And I grant you David vs Goliath. I never said there were no archer-vs.-giant matchups; just that there were plenty of melee-vs.-giant matchups. My point still holds.

[angelfromanotherpin]

- Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent, hammered to death by Thor at Ragnarok
- Many, many giants were hammered to death by Thor

It's worth noting that when Thor hammers things with Mjolnir, he mostly does it at range. By throwing it. In the form of a lightning bolt.

[JonSetanta]

1204663929[/unixtime]]
Also, wasn't David a ranged-combat user vs Goliath, a giant?

THAT SLING WAS AN UNBALANCED ITEM AND YOU KNOW IT!

[CatharzGodfoot]

Wait, so you're saying that historical and mythological heroes actually tried to use the most powerful options they had against their enemies, often putting the villain at an unfair disadvantage? What a bunch of fucktard munchkins. George's use of cover was completely imba. Nobody should be able to defeat an adult dragon at that level. Don't even get me started on Perseus.

Those heroes just wanted to ruin the game for Real Role Players.

[Leress]

1204667955[/unixtime]]Wait, so you're saying that historical and mythological heroes actually tried to use the most powerful options they had against their enemies, often putting the villain at an unfair disadvantage? What a bunch of fucktard munchkins. George's use of cover was completely imba. Nobody should be able to defeat an adult dragon at that level. Don't even get me started on Perseus.

Those heroes just wanted to ruin the game for Real Role Players.

[Bigode]

Record of Lodoss War, if you'll recall, IS D&D and suffered from its retardations, up to "warriors are only good with artifact swords". And mobile stuff like dragons was defeated via hiding or inside caves in most stories. Lurtz vs. Boromir: the ranged fighter kills the dumbass - I approve.

1204668316[/unixtime]]

1204667955[/unixtime]]Wait, so you're saying that historical and mythological heroes actually tried to use the most powerful options they had against their enemies, often putting the villain at an unfair disadvantage? What a bunch of fucktard munchkins. George's use of cover was completely imba. Nobody should be able to defeat an adult dragon at that level. Don't even get me started on Perseus.

Those heroes just wanted to ruin the game for Real Role Players.

(to both)

P.S.: it seems that there's people on this forums that hold this exact thought - and don't get me started on the "I was just toying with you" mentioned elsewhere as something good.

[Username17]

- Fafnir, slain by Sigurd with his sword Gram

By hiding in a pit and ambushing the dragon, yeah.

Unnamed dragon that killed, and was killed by, Beowulf

He had fashioned an iron tower shield which prevented the dragon from affecting him with fire from range, forcing the dragon to come down into melee range, and then he and a compatriot flank the dragon and kill it (though not before Beowulf is fatally poisoned).

-The Lambdon Worm, grappled to death by the Lord of Lambdon's son
- Ladon, a Greek dragon, slain by Heracles
- Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent, hammered to death by Thor at Ragnarok

These don't fly.

Also, you're missing the fact that Chimera was killed by Belepheron who was riding on Pegasus. With arrows. Because Pegasus flew faster than Chimera.

Basically the very legends you brought up show that flying monsters are fought by ambushing them after negating their sky attacks (with shields or stealth), by shooting them with arrows, or by bringing in other flying dudes. That's how people fight flying monsters.

I mean heck, when Conan fights Bird Men he does so by getting a good bow and shooting them in the face (until they give up and charge him, then he chops them to pieces with a sword).

-Username17