What if....

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:50 pm

...clerics were CHA based?

in order to influence other people to their faith, as well BS their deity this could make more sense than WIS?

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:15 pm

I mean, what is it with the gods always liking the popular kids?

Anyways, that might mean something if there were mechanics, but since Charisma doesn't actually help you win converts, I don't know if it matters.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:26 pm

why doesnt is? reaction adjustment and such like that was ALL removed from WotC editions? what does it even have CHA for?

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:29 pm

The whole point of Clerics (aside from legacy material from earlier editions) was to occupy mental attribute space. Wizards (Int), Sorcerers (Cha), Clerics (Wis). One might as well ask, "why not rewrite D&D so every main class is a spellcaster with a single set of attributes?" like so:

Fighter (Strength)
Barbarian (Constitution)
Rogue (Dexterity)
Sorcerer (Charisma)
Wizard (Intelligence)
Cleric (Wisdom)

Yes, these are just the base classes, and aren't terribly balanced. It would probably be more interesting to have something like Book of Nine Swords Guy (Str), Warlock (Con), Rogue (Dex), Mantle/Aura Dude (Cha), Wizard (Int) and Archivist (Wis).

Either way, you could then get some interesting "mixed" classes which instead of having a single primary attribute you get two attributes you have to balance out - like say, Paladin (Str/Wis), Spellsword/Duskblade/Eldritch Knight (Str/Int), Monk (Dex/Wis), Spellthief (Dex/Int), Bard (Dex/Cha), and so on and so forth...but that could get very complicated very quickly.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Charisma as a base stat still stands out as being even worse than CON.

I've never been particularly adept at wrapping my brain around why CHA affects how you cast a fucking spell.

[/pet-peeve]

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:35 pm

codeGlaze wrote: I've never been particularly adept at wrapping my brain around why CHA affects how you cast a fucking spell.

You remind me of the babe

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:15 pm

You just flirt with physics until it lets you cheat.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:30 pm

OgreBattle wrote:
codeGlaze wrote: I've never been particularly adept at wrapping my brain around why CHA affects how you cast a fucking spell.

You remind me of the babe

Damn you!

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:50 pm

TiaC wrote:You just flirt with physics until it lets you cheat.

So, it's halfway between being a Wizard and being Mister Cavern's boyfriend?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:51 pm

What if Clerics were just a bunch of Cure spells for the mage?

Then you wouldn't have to worry about Clerics.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:54 pm

I always preferred the interpretation of Charisma as 'force of personality' and the like. I could be persuaded to key Will off of Charisma, if someone wanted that.

So in a dualistic universe like D&D, it has a certain logic to it that the people with the strongest personality/wills could do instinctive and/or untrained magic better than the folks who don't have that strength of personality.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:13 pm

This has always been my explanation for Use Magic Device keying off of Charisma--you're basically forcing your will on things to affect a change or activate a magical effect.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:10 am

I remember playing some weird throw-away game of 3rd edition where we had to keep what stats we rolled in order and I rolled like shit except for a natural 18 in charisma and like a 15 or so in Wisdom, so shits & giggles I played a charismatic priest.

Aside from turning with "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!" jokes, I played a priest who was also the mother of all con men. Tymora as his patron goddess naturally. Though in hindsight Beshaba or whoever it was that was Tymora's sister would have been a better bet.

It was probably one of the most entertaining characters I ended up ever playing. Not a great cleric, but when I fast-talked the MC so fast that real-life and in game I managed to BS him and pretty much storm the dungeon with a torrent of verbal diarrhea that was *almost* believable and waltz my way straight up to the BBEG side-tracking a carefully laid out dungeon everyone lost it.

In fact, it's one of the things I wish rogues would get to do more often. Naturally you'd have to fix diplomacy and all it's associated social bullshit, but con man would be a fucking awesome archetype to play. Instead with rogues all we get is basically cat burglar.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:18 am

Rogues DO have Bluff and Diplo, and can get Skill Mastery for them if they really wanted to. They also get Gather Info and Forgery, so they can plan heists and bullshit their way past folks with documents and the like.

So I don't see where you get the idea that Rogues can't con. They can. They can also do the flanking-buddy thing if it comes to a fight.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:45 am

Bluff sort of works and diplo is broken as fuck.

Gather Info is sort of useful and I've seen a handful of times that forgery came into play, but all of it pales in comparison to compulsion and charm spells. With those I could hand you a piece of paper I wiped my ass with and you'd take it as a legitimate document.

The problem with con men is that unless you quickly go supernatural you're stuck in the Fighter's dilemma even more quickly than the fighter. 1st level the wizard wins with Charm Person, 3rd level spell the Wizard wins with Suggestion, and 5th level spell the wizard wins with Dominate Person.

And that's just from memory.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:59 am

codeGlaze wrote:I've never been particularly adept at wrapping my brain around why CHA affects how you cast a fucking spell.

aside from Bowie....

the concept of a cleric is mental manipulation, a con artist. (see Jim Baker) their purpose is to feed you hogwash to get you to join teir religion. D&D has the whole more worshipers = more power for the god thing going.

clerics were based on Franciscan monks or something,b ut that doesn't work to well as i don't recall them going around the countryside really getting more followers for the faith.

a D&D cleric has always been a televangelist. what better stat that CHA for that? more CHA more followers, more followers more power for the god, more power for the god more spells for the cleric...

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:06 pm

D&D Priests have been basically a straight port of Archbishop Turpin from the Song of Roland, just like the Paladin is a straight port of Roland and the other knights.

Song of Roland wrote: XIX
Turpin of Rheims from amid the ranks Said: "Lolk, my liege, on your faithful Franks: Seven full years have they held this land, With pain and peril on every hand. To me be the mace and the glove consigned; I will go this Saracen lord to find, And freely forth will I speak my mind."

Song of Roland wrote: XCII
Archbishop Turpin, above the rest, Spurred his steed to a jutting crest. His sermon thus to the Franks he spake: "Lords, we are here for our monarch's sake; Hold we for him, though our death should come; Fight for the succor of Christendom. The battle approaches - ye know it well, For ye see the ranks of the infidel. Cry mea culpa, and lowly kneel; I will assoil you, your souls to heal. In death ye are holy martyrs crowned." The Franks alighted, and knelt on ground; In God's high name the host he blessed, And for penance gave them - to smite their best.

Song of Roland wrote: CXXXIII
Turpin rideth the press among; Never such priest the Mass had sung, Nor who hath such feats of his body done. "God send thee'" he said, "His Malison! For the knight thou slewest my heart is sore." He sets the spur to his steed once more, Smites the shield in Toledo made, And the heathen low on the sward is laid.

Good times.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:52 pm

I have a character I'm working on. A cleric of Pelor, whose full name is Cleric-Militant Luminiferous Alistar "Mad" "One-Eyed" "Hardass" McTavish.

Think...bald, eyepatch, scalp scars, mace, full armor, and he wears a cape to prevent anyone behind him from seeing any seams in the platemail.

Likewise, I will one day find an excuse to bring out the Church Marines.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:23 am

I was playing once with the idea that all casters should work off of all three mental stats. I don't remember how I wound up splitting it, but I think it was Charisma for Save DCs, Wisdom for Max Spell Level and Int for Bonus Spells.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:41 am

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:I was playing once with the idea that all casters should work off of all three mental stats. I don't remember how I wound up splitting it, but I think it was Charisma for Save DCs, Wisdom for Max Spell Level and Int for Bonus Spells.

Fantasy Craft does something like that.

If you just applied MAD to D&D3.5 spellcasters does it have any positive effects on balance or is it thrown off at levels 1-6?

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:45 am

I'm tempted to scrap CHA as a stat and let people use whichever is higher of INT and WIS for all CHA related stuff. Would this break the game?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:55 am

Paladins and Clerics have one less stat to worry about, Sorcerers get higher Will saves, Rogues and Bards become better bullshitters, animal trainer types have more spells or skills (probably more spells)...

And a bunch of monsters have their Spell Like DCs fucked with.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:02 am

OgreBattle wrote:
Desdan_Mervolam wrote:I was playing once with the idea that all casters should work off of all three mental stats. I don't remember how I wound up splitting it, but I think it was Charisma for Save DCs, Wisdom for Max Spell Level and Int for Bonus Spells.
Fantasy Craft does something like that.

If you just applied MAD to D&D3.5 spellcasters does it have any positive effects on balance or is it thrown off at levels 1-6?

The big problem is that players care about Save DCs a lot more than they care about Bonus Spells, and once you get it so that you are allowed ninth level spells, you don't have to worry about THAT stat ever again. It can make for some interesting build choices, but in the end I decided that it wasn't terribly workable.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:16 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Paladins and Clerics have one less stat to worry about, Sorcerers get higher Will saves, Rogues and Bards become better bullshitters, animal trainer types have more spells or skills (probably more spells)...

And a bunch of monsters have their Spell Like DCs fucked with.

Okay, it would screw up a lot of existing stats and buff clerics. Bad idea. Are there any feats (Tome or otherwise) that make a high charisma worth it for non casters?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:37 am

Well.... leadership scales to level+cha mod, so if you want to play a pokemaster of cannon fodder, there's that. I *think* Touch of Golden Ice has a Cha based DC, but given that you have to be an Exalted unarmed fighter for that to come up much, that's very niche.

Other than those, without my books that's all I've got.