[OSSR]Epic Level Handbook
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NineInchNall
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The classic loop is through Epic Leadership (or Thrallherd if you allow that to advance at epic) and DC 0 epic spells that give Charisma boosts. Go through the loop a few hundred times and boost your posse to arbitrarily large. Then cast a DC 0 ritual to do ... who even knows?
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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Username17
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You do indeed have to make the spellcraft check every time you cast the spell. The big thing is that the costs to research spells in the first place, in terms of time, money, and XPs, are all simple multiples of the DC. And there's no listed value. So while a DC 20 spell may be so easy to cast that you can't fail on ranks alone, it's still a pain in the sphincter to research. But DC 0 costs nothing and you learn it instantly.
So while actually using the system is overly expensive and unrewarding, abusing the system is easy and fun.
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So while actually using the system is overly expensive and unrewarding, abusing the system is easy and fun.
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TarkisFlux
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Damnit LM. This sort of thing will convince me to go back to DMO:High Level Campaigns, if only for the Epic Spell precursors. I hate you and your renewed progression.Lord Mistborn wrote:So yeah, I sort of abandoned this project for a while, which was a travesty because I had yet to review Epic Spellcasting. Let's make this take place.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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Cyberzombie
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DMO: High Level Campaigns was a better high level book than the ELH anyway.TarkisFlux wrote:Damnit LM. This sort of thing will convince me to go back to DMO:High Level Campaigns, if only for the Epic Spell precursors. I hate you and your renewed progression.Lord Mistborn wrote:So yeah, I sort of abandoned this project for a while, which was a travesty because I had yet to review Epic Spellcasting. Let's make this take place.
The ELH had no idea what high level was all about. All they did was inflate numbers. The CR 25 adamantine golem can't even detect invisible creatures , has no way of hitting anything flying and has a 7 touch AC.
It was some of the laziest design I've seen.
When this book came out, people freaked the fuck out when I showed them my K's +200 to My Casting Stat For A Year spell.
It required a lot of simulacrums donating spell slots, but it lasted a year and had a caster level of 100. The funniest part is how the Epic Handbook has an item that donates XP to spells, so it's not like I was paying XP for my army of simulacrums.
It required a lot of simulacrums donating spell slots, but it lasted a year and had a caster level of 100. The funniest part is how the Epic Handbook has an item that donates XP to spells, so it's not like I was paying XP for my army of simulacrums.
The problem I've always had with Epic (or even 17th+ level) campaigns is that it's totally unclear what power level you should be operating at, even thematically. So even putting the borked rules aside, I don't even know what a "reasonable" character looks like.
For example, a 20th level Wizard could be operating pretty much the same way he did at 5th level, with some better spells and a few more defenses. He could also be walking around with a couple dozen layers of protection, contingencies, and a bag full of powerful minions. Or for that matter, he could be sending his Astral Projection to go adventuring while he relaxes in his ridiculously fortified demi-plane and builds up an infinite army of simulacra and other forces.
And it's not even clear which of those is "the default" for 20th level, much less 30th level.
For example, a 20th level Wizard could be operating pretty much the same way he did at 5th level, with some better spells and a few more defenses. He could also be walking around with a couple dozen layers of protection, contingencies, and a bag full of powerful minions. Or for that matter, he could be sending his Astral Projection to go adventuring while he relaxes in his ridiculously fortified demi-plane and builds up an infinite army of simulacra and other forces.
And it's not even clear which of those is "the default" for 20th level, much less 30th level.
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BearsAreBrown
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+1Ice9 wrote:The problem I've always had with Epic (or even 17th+ level) campaigns is that it's totally unclear what power level you should be operating at, even thematically. So even putting the borked rules aside, I don't even know what a "reasonable" character looks like.
For example, a 20th level Wizard could be operating pretty much the same way he did at 5th level, with some better spells and a few more defenses. He could also be walking around with a couple dozen layers of protection, contingencies, and a bag full of powerful minions. Or for that matter, he could be sending his Astral Projection to go adventuring while he relaxes in his ridiculously fortified demi-plane and builds up an infinite army of simulacra and other forces.
And it's not even clear which of those is "the default" for 20th level, much less 30th level.
I've actually played an 'epic campaign' from level 17-22 iirc but if I were to tell you the narrative of the campaign you could just as well think we were level 7-12 (epic spellcasting was banned, and spell effects beyond 5th level would never work the way you expected them too). The 'meta-game' of figuring out the DM's expectation of powerlevel became the biggest hurdle for me and my buddy. My Ubercharger was turned down for being overpowered but my Druid/Bard with 9s and 6s was okayed. We had a Shadow-Guy from DMG who do 30 damage in a turn, a Monk who could do 60 damage, and a Fighter who could do 250. System mastery and a willingness to play Spreadsheets and Dragons meant that two level 22 characters were so divergent on the RNG that the DM couldn't deal and the game fell apart.
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TheFlatline
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At least book of vile darkness did 10D6 or something like that to everything with a radius of miles. Yes, you probably didn't even phase the heroes or Elminster, but you killed the entire population of normal living things for 20 miles in every direction.name_here wrote:It is, I shit you not, single-target At least if you have the slot at all you have a maximum 5% chance of failing to cast it.
If you cast that with Sadism (same book) in effect, you then get +$TEXAS on your next d20 roll.
You know, I'd really like to see a high level D&D game play out the way it "should". Actually have the PCs outgrow the plane, forge their own one, and kill a god - not just the big actual battle that takes more than one round and includes real risk of defeat and death, but also the other stuff they have to do first to weaken it (presumably shattering artefacts, burning temples and preaching to the masses). As opposed to "Okay, this is going to be a POWERFUL game! Everyone make level 20 characters! And now... THE DRAGON IS EVEN BIGGER!"
You know, I'd really like to see a high level D&D game play out the way it "should". Actually have the PCs outgrow the plane, forge their own one, and kill a god - not just the big actual battle that takes more than one round and includes real risk of defeat and death, but also the other stuff they have to do first to weaken it (presumably shattering artefacts, burning temples and preaching to the masses). As opposed to "Okay, this is going to be a POWERFUL game! Everyone make level 20 characters! And now... THE DRAGON IS EVEN BIGGER!"
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Probably the best campaign I ever played in my life was a 13th level game played with all the best optimizers I know at once. Only by basically unanimous consensus was anything disallowed and that only happened with things that would make the game unplayable. We traveled every plane, fought multiple Demon Princes and a few gods. We had non MTP'd fights with whole armies of Giants and Dragons and generally played at the highest level of D&D power I've ever seen. It was nuts. My character abused sadism, the Initiate of Mystra feat, and persistent divine metamagics to be immune to hp damage and almost every spell ever. I still died. The sheer volume of material printed in D&D is incredible and somewhere in it is something that can kill anything you've made. It was a wonderful wonderful experience and it taught me a lot about what high level D&D even could look like.
When we recount our totally insane experiences the thing we come back to over and over is that our game was ONLY 13th level. D&D is totally insane and high level play done "right" looks like almost no stories I've ever seen. However Roger Zelazny's brilliant "Creatures of Light and Darkness" is the closest published work I know of.
When we recount our totally insane experiences the thing we come back to over and over is that our game was ONLY 13th level. D&D is totally insane and high level play done "right" looks like almost no stories I've ever seen. However Roger Zelazny's brilliant "Creatures of Light and Darkness" is the closest published work I know of.
DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.
I used to hang around the epic subforums at wizards when there was such a thing. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
It is a book where you read it and think 'if this worked, it'd be wicked cool'. I did, anyway.
Epic is a nice place to live but you wouldn't want to visit, by which I mean that if you have a longstanding game that you want to keep going past level 20, some of the content can work. A one-off will probably implode, though (too easy to break). Its aged badly in places - 3.0 epic dire charge is something a barbarian can pick up in 3.5 at level 1 (5 levels before they actually need it barring whirling frenzy or TWF), and half the ELH monsters have a gazillion heads because 3.0 vorpal was fairly nasty whereas vorpal is basically a waste of money in 3.5.
Some other issues with it:
*Magic items: you're supposed to have millions of gold and a utility item thats only a few thousand GP, or less, could be something that saves the day. Consequently optimizing equipment is lengthy and painful.
*WBL: the theoretical treasure values for higher CR monsters (going up 10% per level) doesn't give the same results as randomly generating magical items, which will often blow out and give you a 640K +8 stat booster or an epic weapon or the like.
*NPCs have pitiful stats compared to same-CR epic monsters. Particularly if using NPC starting wealth, which practically no one ever does; the result of this is that usually characters are picking up a couple of million GP worth of items each encounter. To an extent I'd often give NPCs lots of inherent bonuses or permanentcy'd buffs (like Savage Species greater resistance for +6 saves and blindsight).
*the epic level spellcasting system is junk as noted. Every example spell has an incorrect DC by the book, several have shortcuts that if legal would be very cheesy, the duration stacking rules are bad (e.g. adding the Energy seed to change duration to instantaneous), damage-die upsizing is usually too expensive unless you already have lots of damage dice but makes spells like Vengeful Gaze of God badly constructed, Writing spells on tablets should have a cost multiplier rather than a x2 DC.
*epic feats largely suck. Unfortunately, quite a few of them are things that can be trivially duplicated with magic items, like 'haste 5 rds/day' feat, or 'self-concealment', or Extra Magic Item space (since slotless or multi-functional magical items can often be built at x2 cost), or Epic Skill Focus.
*generally too easy for characters to get absolute defenses in various ways e.g. immunity to mental influence (mind blank) or sneak attack.
*custom magic items; whether these are legal or not gives 20-pt discrepancy in AC or so, as people plug in items to give sacred, profane, insight, etc. AC bonuses. Saw this break one online PbP epic game.
*monster PCs: most of the PC-useable epic monsters have incorrect ECL (less than hit dice), which was errata'd later. The default values give ECL of about CR+3 IIRC, whereas the errated values boost ECL to equal Hit Dice. Neither numbers are likely to work.
(Also, the standard ECL rules applied to monsters lets them get epic feats at ECL 21 - applied consistently a number of standard MM creatures would be eligible for epic feats at CRs below 20).
It is a book where you read it and think 'if this worked, it'd be wicked cool'. I did, anyway.
Epic is a nice place to live but you wouldn't want to visit, by which I mean that if you have a longstanding game that you want to keep going past level 20, some of the content can work. A one-off will probably implode, though (too easy to break). Its aged badly in places - 3.0 epic dire charge is something a barbarian can pick up in 3.5 at level 1 (5 levels before they actually need it barring whirling frenzy or TWF), and half the ELH monsters have a gazillion heads because 3.0 vorpal was fairly nasty whereas vorpal is basically a waste of money in 3.5.
Some other issues with it:
*Magic items: you're supposed to have millions of gold and a utility item thats only a few thousand GP, or less, could be something that saves the day. Consequently optimizing equipment is lengthy and painful.
*WBL: the theoretical treasure values for higher CR monsters (going up 10% per level) doesn't give the same results as randomly generating magical items, which will often blow out and give you a 640K +8 stat booster or an epic weapon or the like.
*NPCs have pitiful stats compared to same-CR epic monsters. Particularly if using NPC starting wealth, which practically no one ever does; the result of this is that usually characters are picking up a couple of million GP worth of items each encounter. To an extent I'd often give NPCs lots of inherent bonuses or permanentcy'd buffs (like Savage Species greater resistance for +6 saves and blindsight).
*the epic level spellcasting system is junk as noted. Every example spell has an incorrect DC by the book, several have shortcuts that if legal would be very cheesy, the duration stacking rules are bad (e.g. adding the Energy seed to change duration to instantaneous), damage-die upsizing is usually too expensive unless you already have lots of damage dice but makes spells like Vengeful Gaze of God badly constructed, Writing spells on tablets should have a cost multiplier rather than a x2 DC.
*epic feats largely suck. Unfortunately, quite a few of them are things that can be trivially duplicated with magic items, like 'haste 5 rds/day' feat, or 'self-concealment', or Extra Magic Item space (since slotless or multi-functional magical items can often be built at x2 cost), or Epic Skill Focus.
*generally too easy for characters to get absolute defenses in various ways e.g. immunity to mental influence (mind blank) or sneak attack.
*custom magic items; whether these are legal or not gives 20-pt discrepancy in AC or so, as people plug in items to give sacred, profane, insight, etc. AC bonuses. Saw this break one online PbP epic game.
*monster PCs: most of the PC-useable epic monsters have incorrect ECL (less than hit dice), which was errata'd later. The default values give ECL of about CR+3 IIRC, whereas the errated values boost ECL to equal Hit Dice. Neither numbers are likely to work.
(Also, the standard ECL rules applied to monsters lets them get epic feats at ECL 21 - applied consistently a number of standard MM creatures would be eligible for epic feats at CRs below 20).
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Ancient History
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A large part of the problem with Epic feats and Epic level progression is that it was still incremental - often even worse than pre-Epic levels - and spellslinging was going off the fucking chain. Nobody gives a rats hairy arse about +1 BAB at level 25, or at least they damn well shouldn't. Basically not using the ELH is better (or at least no less broken) than using it. Your class tops out at 20? Then you find a new class. Add stat modifiers and have fun.
Zelazney is pretty much the best model for high level play. It almost doesn't even matter which Zelazney.
The thing is, most Zelazney isn't bigger bangs or anything, it's interpersonal relations.
The thing is, most Zelazney isn't bigger bangs or anything, it's interpersonal relations.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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BearsAreBrown
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On a whim I started reading this book. I'm currently reading the fight between Set and The Thing That Cries In The Night. Now this is podracing. What the fuck.deanruel87 wrote:When we recount our totally insane experiences the thing we come back to over and over is that our game was ONLY 13th level. D&D is totally insane and high level play done "right" looks like almost no stories I've ever seen. However Roger Zelazny's brilliant "Creatures of Light and Darkness" is the closest published work I know of.
@fectin, the interpersonal thing makes sense though right? When power levels reach the point that the setting can be rearranged in seconds, feats of strength only need be threatened. If the fights weren't rare then the setting would be destroyed and the plots nonsensical. I imagine it like a perpetual Mexican standoff between all of the top players. Loyalties, bluffs, threats matter much more than trigger pull.
Which Zelazny should I read next?
I am incredibly excited for you. That is a great book. As to what to read next the answer is simply; Lords of Light. No question. Lords of Light is fucking incredible and changed the way I view fantasy forever. It is a marvel and a masterpiece.
9 Princes in Amber also gets high praise, which it deserves. But it is a 10 book series so I think Lords of Light will deliver more bang for your buck. The series is basically 2 totally separate stories. The first 5 books are one thing and the second 5 are another. I was told often enough that the first 5 books were better that I only read those. I greatly enjoyed them but couldn't give you a good review of what the second half is like, presumably some other Denizens can.
9 Princes in Amber also gets high praise, which it deserves. But it is a 10 book series so I think Lords of Light will deliver more bang for your buck. The series is basically 2 totally separate stories. The first 5 books are one thing and the second 5 are another. I was told often enough that the first 5 books were better that I only read those. I greatly enjoyed them but couldn't give you a good review of what the second half is like, presumably some other Denizens can.
DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.
More like USA vs. Russia nuclear standoffBearsAreBrown wrote:@fectin, the interpersonal thing makes sense though right? When power levels reach the point that the setting can be rearranged in seconds, feats of strength only need be threatened. If the fights weren't rare then the setting would be destroyed and the plots nonsensical. I imagine it like a perpetual Mexican standoff between all of the top players. Loyalties, bluffs, threats matter much more than trigger pull
EDIT: Not really, actually. Most his powerful characters don't have the immediate goals of "kill each other". If Corwin wants to ram yo ass with a sword - he'll ram yo ass with a sword, but Corwin's goal is becoming the king of Amber, or repairing the Labyrinth or stuff. And Corwin, Merlin, Mahatma Sam, etc. didn't really had big setting destroying powers. Corwin raised an army to take over the Amber, Merlin's powers were rather small scale, Sam also raised an army.
Last edited by Longes on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Roughly, all of Zelazney's main protagonists are fairly badass. But they're not the most badass.
Also, they tend to have long histories with their antagonists. For example, Corwin has a bunch of brothers (as the title of the first book implies). Some of them he likes, some he hates, but he's just not interested in killing them. He might do so if he had to, but his goals are all about forcing them to step aside or to support him.
Also, they tend to have long histories with their antagonists. For example, Corwin has a bunch of brothers (as the title of the first book implies). Some of them he likes, some he hates, but he's just not interested in killing them. He might do so if he had to, but his goals are all about forcing them to step aside or to support him.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Username17
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You really don't. It's that good.
I once opened it to the aesthetics speech and handed it to an Art student. He read it and started crying. No joke.
I once opened it to the aesthetics speech and handed it to an Art student. He read it and started crying. No joke.
Last edited by fectin on Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
[off-topic]
Where do I start on these? I'm curious now.
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Where do I start on these? I'm curious now.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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darkmaster
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FrankTrollman wrote:Lord of Light is probably the best book. I don't think I need any qualifiers on that statement.
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I made these into a banner and will now use that banner everywhere to tell people why they should read Zelazney.fectin wrote:You really don't. It's that good.
I once opened it to the aesthetics speech and handed it to an Art student. He read it and started crying. No joke.
Kaelik wrote:Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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TheFlatline
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Lago PARANOIA
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So. What D&D or D&D-inspired viderojames have actually had epic-level campaigns/gameplay (or at least something that approaches epic) that's deliberately put in the hands of players and doesn't just exist in a cutscene?
I'll accept either an epic-level concept or epic-level game effects. I know that video games are inherently limited with what kind of special effects that they can show and moreover one of the hallmarks of epic-level play (open-endedness) are really hard to do on a cRPG. So I'll cut people some slack. Nonetheless, which games at least aspire towards doing so?
I'll accept either an epic-level concept or epic-level game effects. I know that video games are inherently limited with what kind of special effects that they can show and moreover one of the hallmarks of epic-level play (open-endedness) are really hard to do on a cRPG. So I'll cut people some slack. Nonetheless, which games at least aspire towards doing so?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.