[Greyhawk] Prak's Greyhawk Game (form. Wither Psionics?)

[Prak]

So, it looks like I'm running Greyhawk sometime in the extremely imminent future--between reading through the Gazetteer, mulling over ideas, and a player saying Greyhawk was their favourite when I made some vague mumblings on facebook.

One player would like to play a soulknife. All I've really been able to find on Greyhawk Psionics is an article in the first issue of Dragon magazine I bought which details a Scarlet Brotherhood splinter group, and the Baklunish deities Zuoken and Xae Yae. So, there we go, I know that the Baklunish have a psionic tradition in Greyhawk, and that I could slot some into everybody's favourite fantasy racists the SB.

I'm actually thinking of combining the psionic SB, with Talozin's idea from my thread about campaign settings where the SB are a blind for a greater magical threat--ie, the Scarlet Brotherhood are the result of an ancient infiltration of Suel culture by hidden mind flayers. Humans in the Suel culture received preferential treatment because humans are the only real viable host for their hidden alien masters. The mind flayers pushed the Suel into conflict with the Baklunish peoples because ...mumblemumblesomething... eventually resulting in the Invoked Devastation, an illithid bequeathed super weapon, and the Rain of Colourless Fire, a Baklunish meta-concert psionic force super weapon. In the post cataclysm, Suel refugees corrupted knowledge of the illithid servant-race, Beholders, into the toad-like god of Human Supremacy, Wastri, and the Suel closest to their hidden masters splintered off into the Scarlet Brotherhood, still acting out the last commands given to a pre-cataclysm hidden order by the illithids under the watchful gaze of the psion Purified Ones, with the nigh-feral soulknife "Hounds."

---

So, some questions-

First, are there any other Greyhawk Psionics things I should know about?

Second, how bad is "Magic and Psionics are Completely Different" for the game?

Third, how game breaking would it be to have a regional feat which gives at will/always active Detect Magic or Detect Psionics?

[ubernoob]

First, are there any other Greyhawk Psionics things I should know about?

Second, how bad is "Magic and Psionics are Completely Different" for the game?

Totally retarded. It means that high level psions buy custom antimagic field items then go caster hunting. Or it means that a psion cannot dispel an arcane/divine charm person spell. Or vice versa. They literally have the same effects duplicated for half the shit psionics does, so making them not interact for no reason is retarded.

Third, how game breaking would it be to have a regional feat which gives at will/always active Detect Magic or Detect Psionics?

It would be kind ok. Could be strong or underpowered depending on what you threw in with it, and what kind of campaign you had. Detect magic/psionics would still require you to make the spellcraft check to do anything other than say "There is magic stuff there" so its not game changing either way.

[codeGlaze]

I treat detect magic/alignment/etc a lot like force sensitivity. You can willfully trick other (something)-sensitives by casting off a false alignment or suppressing your power/alignment, etc.

So detect is sort of always on, with an at will being used for concentrating on picking up specifics.

It hasnt been detrimental to my group in the slightest.

[Prak]

I'm always tempted to run Magic =! Psionics for flavour reasons, but I'm also leery of the mechanical implications.

On the Detect Psionics feat, I'm thinking something like:

Mindhound (Psionic, Regional--Scarlet Brotherhood)
You are one of the Scarlet Brotherhood's carefully bred psion-hunting servitors. You probably escaped, and are being hunted by them with a "crossbow first, ask questions later" attitude.
Benefit: You have a special sense for psionic energy. More specifically, you can smell it.
You have Detect Psionics as an at will psi-like ability, with the caveat that different levels of power can be sensed at different ranges. Consult the chart below.
Also, Overwhelming auras are literally overwhelming. In smelling range of such powerful forces, your sense of smell and taste are overloaded and you literally cannot smell or taste anything but the psionic energy of such a source.

Aura Strength (mechanical definition)	Range
faint psionics (3rd level or lower powers, 5th or lower manifester level)	30 feet
Moderate psionics (4-6th level, 6th-11th ML)	60 feet
Strong psionics (7th-9th level, 12th-20th ML)	120 feet
Overwhelming psionics (10th+ level, 21+ ML)	250 feet away or more*
*depending on the exact power level.

Your ability to Detect Psionics is literally scent based, thus you cannot pinpoint the source unless you are within 5'. However, due to it's intangible nature (there are no psionic scent molecules), your sensory range is not affected by wind direction. A source can be downwind or upwind, and they are no more or less difficult to smell. Like with Scent, particularly strong scents can mask the scent of psionics.
This ability is otherwise like the power Detect Psionics--with concentration, you can discern the number of sources, and different disciplines have distinct scents, and a spellcraft/psicraft check can be made to determine the discipline of a scent--though due to the visceral nature of the ability, you automatically know the "strength" of a source upon smelling it.
You are accustomed to your own psionic scent, and can become accustomed to the psionic scents of those you are around frequently so as to filter them out. (It takes about a week of fairly frequent contact with another person to be able to filter out their scent).

[ubernoob]

That's pretty shitty even for a regional feat. Here's why. At the levels where you would actually spend a feat on detect [anything] before people start getting permanencied arcane sight and whatnot, the majority of spell effects you're going to deal with are going to be low. You seriously only need CL 11 to permanency up an arcane sight. That's the caster, not the character. Between caster level boosts and just fucking paying an NPC caster for it, you can have arcane sight on all the time as early as level 9.

Anyways, I'd give them the full detect magic range from level 1 for everything (because seriously it's a cantrip), and throw in some other bonus like Identify once per day and upgrade it to arcane sight at level ten or some nonsense. As is, that's a kick in the nuts sitting next to stuff like Otherworldly (which lets you polymorph into outsiders and also gives you martial weapon proficiency), precocious apprentice (which lets you qualify for prestige classes early), and jotunbrud (which gives you powerful build). Did I mention that otherworldly also gives you a bonus to diplomacy checks for no reason?

[Prak]

Given that Mindhound is supposed to be the result of breeding, I need to add in a "can only be taken at level 1" caveat.

The flavour is that you're a psi-bred bloodhound for magic/psionics. Identify would be a bit out of flavour (though not terribly so), and that's why I modified the ranges.

Hm. If I changed the animal motif, making the feat "Psihawk," that would be plenty of reason to change to just straight Detect Psionics. So I think I'll do that. It changes aesthetics a bit, I suppose, but there's probably more I can do with a visual sense than an olfactory one.

I'll need to look through spell and power lists for fitting accompanying powers.

Edit: Is it appropriate to require a class feature or the like for a regional feat? This feat could easily require a level in Soulknife, given its flavour, and by extension, could modify Mind Blade.
Editedit: A quick look at some Greyhawk regional feats shows that it's totally fair for a regional feat to require a certain class ability if it modifies that ability. So that gives me somewhere to go with this idea too.

...I love how I constantly put a significant amount of work into things my players won't actually use...

[Prak]

So I'm looking at this, let me know if I should still add something, keeping in mind we're using the printed books and not anything Tome as my players don't like the power level of Tome.

Psihawk (Psionic, Regional--Scarlet Brotherhood)
You are one of the Scarlet Brotherhood's carefully bred psion-hunting servitors. You probably escaped, and are being hunted by them with a "crossbow first, ask questions later" attitude. You have a special sense for psionic energy, and can see psionic auras. Your eyes glow faintly red, increasing in intensity as your power as a soulknife increases, and your mind blades have a raptorial motif.
Prerequisites: ability to manifest a mind blade
Benefit: You have Detect Psionics as an always active supernatural ability.
In addition, the default form of your mind blade is wicked talons on both hands, treated as a pair of daggers. You may still manifest your mind blade as a single blade with short sword stats if you wish.
When you gain a +1 enhancement to your mind blade, your mind talons do not have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than a single mind blade would, as would happen for a 5th level soulknife manifesting two blades.
At fifth level, your mind blade's default form is a series of razor-sharp feather-like blades projecting from the back of your hand and running halfway down your forearms, which are treated as a paired longsword and short sword, though these blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than a single blade would. You are also able to manifest a longsword or bastard sword as normal.

[Ancient History]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020623c

[ubernoob]

That looks like a pretty usable feat, Prak. Not too much or too little for most games.

[Prak]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020623c

Yup, I've got that issue. Read through the article last night and need to consider how I'm using it.

@Uber: thanks. The mind blade alteration was a bit tricky to work out in a way that doesn't stop being a benefit at 5th level, or completely eclipse Shape Mind Blade.

So far, this is what I have, along with pages on the Suloise and Baklunish (C/P'd from the gazetteer at the moment), and a page on the Scarlet Brotherhood, with the start of a feats page.

[Prak]

So I'm working on this some more and want to float a couple Regional feat by people.

Unoerthly Cave Looter (Regional--Barrier Peaks)
You hail from one of the Mountain dwarf strongholds in the Barrier Peaks and have plumbed the shining caverns that range hides. While you were fortunate to escape with your life, you were even more fortunate to escape with a little bit more...
Benefit: You possess a piece of Unoerthly Tech looted from one of the strange mountains found in the Barrier Peaks. Few outside the range know much--if anything--about these treasures, but, through trial and a cat's worth of luck (seriously, there was a ritual and everything. ...poor Mittens...), you figured out how to work, and which end to point at the thing you want to incinerate. Or heal. Whatever. If you put some work into it, you can probably find a few other functions, or figure out how to use it more reliably. When you take this feat, choose one of the below:

• Lightbow: A device something like a short rod on a crossbow handle with a button, which fires bright rays of light. It can fire 25 such rays in a given day, before apparently being depleted of energy. Given reasonable exposure to sunlight (a few hours each day), it recharges fully for the next day, but seems to recharge in "sets," meaning that the 25 shot/day limit is solid. Even if you let it sit in sunlight for three hours, you can't get another 25 shots until after midnight. Deals 3d6 fire damage, x2 crit, range 40'.
• Needler: Similar to the Lightbow in shape, but an elongated egg-shaped construction in place of the rod and an array of spines protruding from the end of the egg which sits above the handle. When the button on the handle is squeezed, it fires a burst of glowing needles, which disappear from the end. Unlike the Lightbow, the needler can regrow needles for use the same day. The needler holds up to 30 needles at a time, and fires 1d4 needles each time it is used. Once the needles are depleted, it takes 5 rounds for another needle to regrow, or 15 minutes to fully refill the needler. Deals 1d4 piercing/needle fired, 19-20/x2 crit, range 20'.
• Blast Stone: This silvery device appears to be an oversized throwing stone with a button on the perimeter. If the button is pressed and the stone thrown, when it hits a surface it will emit a large explosion which does not consume it. The device has the ability to emit one such blast a day, and must absorb sunlight for five hours to recharge for the next 24 hour period. Deals 5d6 fire damage in a 10' radius, 10' range.
  • Several variants of Blast Stone exist:
  • Sleep Stone: Instead of a blast of fire, the Sleep stone emits a gas which puts creatures to sleep. Up to 4 medium size creatures within 5' of the thrown device must save (Fort, DC 10+your character level) or fall asleep for 1d10 minutes. The device can also effect larger or smaller creatures than medium, though the number changes: 1 huge=2 large=4 medium=8 small=16 tiny=32 diminutive=64 fine. The Sleep Stone is usable 3 times per day before it must recharge.
  • Poison Stone: As the Sleep Stone, but affected creatures are sickened for 1d6 rounds, and can be used 5 times per day.
  • Barb Stone: The Barb stone looks little like a Blast Stone. Instead of a throwing stone, it looks more like a short rod, or a weapon handle with a button in place of a shaft or blade, and a seam around the pommel. When the button is pressed, the pommel opens up and drops a small cylinder with a softly pulsing red light. When it hits a surface, or after one to three rounds--during which time the pulsing light grows brighter and starts pulsing faster, and which can be set by the wielder--the cylinder explodes in a cloud of shrapnel. Three such cylinders can be ejected each day. Deals 3d10 damage to targets within 5', no crit. A thrown cylinder has a 10' range.
  Alternatively, you have two of the below items:
• Translator: The translator comes in two pieces attached by a tough black rope--one which sits over a humanoid's ear, and the other which attaches to the corner of the mouth. The Translator is essentially always active. The wearer can understand virtually any language it hears (particularly obscure or specialized languages, such as Druidic or Dark Speech may be meaningless or require time to decode). The wearer can tap a small button on the earpiece, and anything it says will be translated into the last language the device translated for them.
• Healer's Patch: The Healer's Patch is a stiff fabric round which adheres to any organic or living creature to mend their wounds. While active, thin silver spidery lines spread out from the patch through the creature's skin/surface. When the patch is attached to the creature, the patch puts the creature into a light comatose state unless they make a DC 15 Fort save. If the save fails, or the creature is willing, it is rendered helpless and has Fast Healing 3. Removing the patch requires a drop of reasonably strong alcohol--which makes the lines retract and the patch detach from the skin, curling slightly. After one minute, the patch returns to normal and can be used again.
• Endless Ration Box: Appearing to be a small metal bread box with a series of buttons on top, this device is fairly straightforward. By pressing a few buttons in a series you've memorized, a small unseen bell rings and the box opens, revealing a small, but hearty--if mysterious--meal. You can generate food this way any number of times in a day.

At fifth level, you've discovered more to your strange device:

• Lightbow: You can now fire a more concentrated blast of light from your weapon, dealing 6d6 damage which overcomes damage reduction and hardness, but uses two charges from the device. You've also figured out how to get an additional set of charges out of your device per 24 hour period, though it does still need three hours of sunlight to charge.
• Needler: You found a way to open your device and remove some sort of limiter. It now can hold up to 60 needles at a time, and can regrow needles without being fully depleted--although it still takes 5 rounds for each needle to grow. You've also become more experienced with your device, and can choose to fire 1d4 or 1d6 needles at a time.
• Blast Stone and variants: You found some sort of moving image inside the blast stone which allowed you to alter it, though you're not sure how you did it. Damage, radius and uses per day of your devices are doubled.
• Translator: Your device may now translate even obscure and specialized languages with ease, and has extended a slim band which fits over the crown of your head, and a clear, broad band over your eyes. With the growth of your device you find yourself both learning the languages it translates (it takes roughly an hour of conversation with a speaker to learn a new language. You cannot gain feats such as Dark Speech this way), and learning more about those around you--because you're starting to hear their thoughts. The Translator gives you the ability to detect thoughts as the spell, at will. The band over your eyes now translates text for you.
• Healer's Patch: The patch now extends lines farther into it's subjects which stand out more. It is now able to heal 1 point of ability damage or energy drain per hour it is attached.
• Endless Ration Box: Ok, you got bored. You started poking at the buttons in different sequences. You have a few different meals you can get from it now, which, while still mysterious in origin, are at least identifiable. You can also get a meal from the box which replicates a Hero's Feast as cast by a cleric of your level once per week.

Ok, so that's terrible, probably, but that's why I post shit, so I know why it's shit, and I can fix it. I also want to write a feat that gives mutations, but I need to think on that one more.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Translator + dark speech=Lovecraftean hilarity (aka WIS damage)

[Prak]

Like I said, it doesn't give the feat. So you just get the literal translation of the Dark Speech words.

[Prak]

Ok, can someone give me some actual feedback on Unoerthly Cave Looter? I know it needs a ton of balance work, but have absolutely no idea how to do so without feedback.

[ubernoob]

My feedback is tldr. That's like seven paragraphs for one feat. Either split that shit up or make it more concise. On my phone at the moment, but it seems either too good or not good enough. I'm not sure which because that is like seven different fucking feats crammed together.

[Prak]

So I'm working on this some more and want to float a couple Regional feat by people.

Unoerthly Cave Looter (Regional--Barrier Peaks)
You hail from one of the Mountain dwarf strongholds in the Barrier Peaks and have plumbed the shining caverns that range hides. While you were fortunate to escape with your life, you were even more fortunate to escape with a little bit more...

tl;drL Pick one of the following:
lightbow: 3d6 fire, x2 crit, 40 range increment. 25 charges/day. @5th: 3d6 50 times/day, or use two charges for a 6d6.
needler: Fires 1d4 needles, each dealing 1d4 damage, 19-20/x2 crit, 20' range increment. 30 needles, when depleted needles recharge at a 5 rounds:1 needle rate @5th: 60 charges, needles constantly regenerate, can fire 1d6 or 1d4 needles in a shot.
blast stone: 5d6 fire in 10' radius, 1/day, 10' range increment. @5th: double damage/radius/uses per day
sleep stone: Fort save (DC 10+char level) vrs 1d10 min. unconscious. Affects 4 mediums w/i 5' (or 2 large, or 8 small, etc), 10' range increment, 3/day. @5th: double radius/uses per day
poison stone: as Sleep, but targets sickened 1d6 rounds, 5 uses/day. @5th: double radius/uses per day
barb stone: creates 3/day mines with 5' radius blast, 3d10 piercing, up to three round delay. @5th: double damage/radius/uses per day

Or pick two of the following
Translator: Understand "any" spoken language, speak last language heard. @5th: Understand any spoken or written language, detect thoughts, learn languages after 1 hour of conversation
Healer's patch: Subject becomes helpless, gains Fast Healing 3. Can save against the item if unwilling. @5th: Heal 1 ability damage/hour
Endless Ration Box: literally infinite bland generic rations. @5th level: create handful of identifiable items/meals, hero's feast 1/week.

[deaddmwalking]

'Has an item' is hard for a feat for a couple reasons. The first is that not every GM is in agreement that things you spent 'actual character resources' on should be protected and/or not taking away your laser gun in a prison scenario damages verisimilitude.

Secondly, it's hard to explain why the item improves at 5th level - it's gamey.

[ubernoob]

A) None of that shit scales with character level, so this is a low level only feat in which case blast stone is "win one encounter per day" at level 1.
B) The uses/day is retarded. 25/day might as well be at will unless you can rapidshot with it (and I don't know if you can or not)
C) Does the needler proc sneak attack dice per needle? If so that would be stupid powerful. If not, it would be stupid why the fuck would you ever select this over blast stone?
D) These things are basically spell like abilities with weird recharges and I fucking hate setting permanent character resources (feats) on fire for something you won't fucking care about three levels down the road.

E) Why don't you just write a gadgeteer class? The power level for this feat is all over the place.

TLDR: I hate the whole design process. Split it up into multiple feats and maybe we can work something out, but if you're basically set on handing out X uses/day SLAs... you're wrong and I hate you.

[Prak]

Well, I knew it was terrible.

Obviously, the idea is that you're a person (most likely a dwarf) from the Barrier Peaks, and you have swag from the downed spaceship. You've tinkered with it a bit, and figured out how it works, but to anyone else it might as well be a shiny rock. If you tinker with it a bit more, you can find out more about how to use it, hence why it powers up at fifth.

It occurs to me that instead of a "pick an item" feat* it might be better as a "you have an item which does random shit when you fiddle with the buttons and dials. Roll on the table:" feat.

*I am opposed to taking away shit players spent character resources on, and I'm really just writing this for my game.

...it just occurred to me how to handle this damned thing properly:


So I'm going to grab some breakfast, and rewrite this feat less fuxxored.

[Prak]

So, it's still long, but it should be better and more balanced. It gives a 1d6 light ray which requires a d20 roll to use. If you roll high, you do more d6s, but you can only do 10d6+1d6/2 lvs total per day. It's locked on your wrist, so you're not going to lose it.
Unoerthly Cave Looter (Regional--Barrier Peaks)
Your clan said it was dangerous. They forbade you. They told you stories of dwarves seeking those shining halls and never returning--or worse, returning with nothing to show for it but mortal wounds and lesions the like no healer had ever seen or could ever mend.
You went anyway. You were luckier than most, returning with not only your life and a story none would believe, but a mystical device.
Unfortunately, that device is attached to you, and no attempt will remove it. You also don't entirely know how to work it.
Benefit: You have an alien device clamped to your (choice of left or right) wrist. You know it's powerful, but you don't entirely know how to use it. As a standard action, you can fire a blast of pale blue flame from the device. The base damage is 2d6, and when you fire it, roll a d20. On a one, the device fails to fire, 2-5 it does only 1d6, and 11 or better it does 3d6. The device is limited to 10 d6s of damage in a day (ie, 10 DC 15 blasts per day, with the risk of using additional charges with a high roll)*.
The device is powered by your life force. As you grow in level, it will gain more power per day. Every two levels beyond 1st, the device can put out another d6 of damage per day. However, you also learn more about the device as you level, and can choose to not fire 1d6 worth of energy/5 character levels.
You also have a distinguishing scar which cannot be healed and marks you as one who delved into that which the Barrier Peak dwarves refuse to touch. Dwarves in the Barrier Peaks are thus initially wary (unfriendly) of you in social interactions. Of course this also means it's really easy to intimidate them, so you also have a +4 to intimidate checks made against any dwarf from the Barrier Peaks.
The device cannot be removed from your body unless you are dead--if any attempt is made to sever your hand or arm, the device will discharge a 4d6 blast in the direction of person or object trying to do so. Of course, there are a lot of people who have no problem killing someone to take his stuff.
Finally, the device has lots of lights on it, emitting enough light to act as a candle of unlimited duration (shadowy illumination to 5'). There's a button you've figured out serves no purpose other than to make one particular light shine really brightly, and then stop glowing so brightly, allowing the device to act as a bullseye lantern of unlimited duration.

*If this seems like unnecessary bookkeeping, you can seriously just have a pile of d6s that represent your device's charge. Once you use xd6, remove them from the pile.

---

I also wrote the mutation feat, which does need feedback on balance, but hopefully it's not too complex.
Tainted by Unoerthly Magics (Regional--Barrier Peaks)
The Barrier Peak Mountains are a dangerous place to live, not just for the ravenous monsters, but also for the pockets of magical radiations. Most people stagger away from these forsaken places beyond the help of anything but a quick and merciful death. Others walk away changed, but alive and reasonably healthy.
You're part of that latter group.
Benefit: The fell radiations of the Barrier Peaks have mutated your body. This has it's upsides and downsides. Pick one item from each column:

Benefits	Disadvantages
Acidic Saliva (Your bite deals 1d4 damage. You can also spit this saliva as a 1d3 acid attack with a flat 5' range--no increment)	Anemia (take 1 point of Con damage any day you do not drink 1 int of blood from a sentient creature)
Natural Weapon or Armour (you have a bite, pair of claws, set of horns or stinger which deals damage appropriate to your size. Or you have +3 Natural armour)	Brittle Bones (falls and bludgeoning weapons deal an additional d6 of damage to you)
Skeletal Reinforcement (Falls and bludgeoning weapons deal 5 points less damage to you)	Fraility/Lethargy/Weak Minded (-2 to all Fort/Ref/Will saves)
Wide Eyed (Gain Darkvision +30', +3 Search and Spot)	Heat/Cold Susceptibility (Damage from exposure is doubled. Fire and Cold damage you take is increased by 1d6)
Gills (You can breath underwater just as easily as air)	Light Sensitivity (Dazzled in bright light)
Banded Legs (You gain a +5 racial bonus to Jump checks)	Wasting Disease (Each day you take 1d4 damage upon waking up. You cannot be reduced below 1 hp by this damage, and it can be healed normally).
Prehensile Tail (You have a prehensile tail, in addition to it's flexibility, it also gives you a +5 to balance checks)	Withered Limb (Your speed is reduced by 5')
Solar Battery (You absorb sunlight and constantly emit a low level of light, akin to a candle. You can suppress this with a free action each round. Once per day, you can focus it into a blast which deals 1d6/three character levels. You must absorb eight hours of bright light before you can unleash such a blast again.)	Sun Allergy (direct sunlight deals 1d4 damage per round of exposure to you. Heavy clothing will protect you.)

[deaddmwalking]

If you're going to do 'you start with an interesting item' as a feat, you've got a problem because items can be lost or stolen (invalidating the feat selection). Lots of systems include 'you have more wealth than normal' and they come in all kinds of shapes and sizes (free MW weapon, double normal starting gold), but they're all traps - because if you adventure, you get cool stuff.

So you put this type of stuff on the magic item table and if you want, you make a quest out of it or assign it as random treasure. And if it seems lame to your players, they sell it or trade it for a night of hookers and blow.

Now, if you put it on the magic item table, you can say 'players - you can start with a magical item'. If you have a dwarf player from the Barrier Peaks, you can say 'hey, this is an item that I think would be appropriate for your area'.

[Prak]

Hence why I rewrote it as "you have an alien device on your wrist that cannot be removed"

[deaddmwalking]

Hence why I rewrote it as "you have an alien device on your wrist that cannot be removed"

So your PCs are taken prisoner. What do the orcs do? Kill that player because he has a fucking laser? Cut off his arm?

[ubernoob]

Are these free bonus feats? Because if that is the case, they are more or less fine right now. If you had to choose between one of those and improved initiative, you'd choose improved initiative every time though.

[Prak]

There are bigger problems with such a scenario than losing the benefit of a feat.