[OSSR]Shadowrun: Tir Tairngire and Tír na nÓg

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Username17
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Post by Username17 »

deaddmwalking wrote:Essentially, such a belief continues to justify conquest by the minority/outsider. If it's okay once the war is over, then as long as they win, history will forgive them.
Who gives a shit if history forgives "them." You're not discussing whether to punish the people who actually invaded anything, you're discussing whether to punish their grandchildren or the grandchildren of the people they sold their ill-gotten gains to. You're talking some original sin nonsense of punishing people whose only crime was being born and having ancestors who were dicks. Well guess what: everyone has ancestors who were dicks. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by attempting to disentangle that shit.

Let's consider the Celts, because they are relevant to Tir na nOg. Long before the Celts lived in Ireland they lived in Hungary. They conquered those lands about 2500 years, and about 800 years after that, Hungary was conquered by the Huns - the ancestors of modern day Hungarians. Should the Hungarians all be ethnic cleansed out of Hungary so that we can move the Irish and Bretons there? Absolutely not. Because that's barbaric and stupid. People born in Ireland have no reason to own modern day Hungary and it's been more than a thousand years since any proto-Hungarian came and took any proto-Irish person's homeland.
Especially when you consider uneven distribution of economic resources, it essentially continues to justify those that 'have not' to use military means to take from those who 'have'.
You're totally wrong. Totally and completely wrong. You couldn't be more wrong, because that's actually backwards.

If you acknowledge inheritance rights at all, that justifies haves and have nots. If you think that you're entitled to own something because it was unjustly taken away from your great great grandfather, then you're saying that people with more complete family histories (and less living relatives) are entitled to more stuff than other people. That's wrong. You aren't entitled to the lands and gold of your ancestors. You aren't entitled to own more land just because you have less cousins.

Now as a basic human being, you are entitled to the bounty of civilization. Of current civilization. Society should arrange to ensure that you grow up having access to water, food, shelter, healthcare, and opportunity. And it should ensure those things no matter who your ancestors were. The crimes of the past are real and we should confront them, but they are also in the past. They were performed by people who are not alive, and punishing people today for them just creates a new generation of innocent victims.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

deaddmwalking wrote:Most people will accept 'doing wrong now' for 'helping my kids later'. Whether that's illegal immigration or armed conquest is an equation that's solved by determining which is more likely to succeeed and what the specific rewards are.
Yeah, and? Welcome to the limits of retributive justice. If someone wrongs someone else and passes the victims' belongings to their kids/friends/tribe/world at large you can always, you know, give compensation. Sometimes the compensation will just be, you know, restoring rightful ownership. But even if it's impossible to do this in a way that's not overly punitive societies still have ways to recompense. You know, stuff like affirmative action and direct monetary bounties from the government and all that.

If someone escapes the law by ducking into the grave, redistributes the spoils of the crime to innocent people, and then for some reason there's no way to give redress to the victims (for example, they're all dead) then so be it. Harming unrelated parties to teach a lesson to potential martyrs not only barbaric and hardly ever works but is laughably circular.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking »

FrankTrollman wrote: You're not discussing whether to punish the people who actually invaded anything, you're discussing whether to punish their grandchildren or the grandchildren of the people they sold their ill-gotten gains to.
But in the books you're reviewing, the displacing happened recently. The perpetrators are still alive.

I'm not an apologist for the NRA - I'm trying to understand what statute of limitations you allow for conquest. If the elves successfully create an isolationist state and force out/murderize everyone that doesn't like it (which you say is bad) is everyone supposed to just shrug and say, 'well, they shouldn't have done it, but no use crying over spilled milk'?

If the people now living in Eltopia are happy and like their political organization, is armed conquest by outsiders acceptable - either because they feel they have a claim (were displaced) or to punish those who did the bad things in the first place?

@Lago - I understand how restitution is supposed to work. People here still talk about '40 acres and a mule'.

In any case, going back to the IRA, I get the sense that Frank is saying 'what they're doing is bad, but if they kill enough people that disagree with them, we all ought to accept it - dead people don't get to complain'. That may reflect our moral realities, but it's not what I've come to expect from Frank. So I figure I'm missing something.
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Post by Username17 »

DDMW: Huh?

You can punish perpetrators and you can give restitution to victims. Those are things you can do. But if the victims and perpetrators are both dead, then you can't do either of those things. Punishing or giving largess to people based on crimes performed by and done to tribes that people in the modern world claim membership in is ridiculous. Tribes aren't real things and peoples' membership in them is completely fucking arbitrary.

I'm not a Sorbian, I'm not a Sinti, I'm not a Norwegian, and I'm not a Jew. I'm a white American. Because that's what I was born to. And the fact that my ancestors were all those other things only means as much as I choose for it to mean.

Affirmative Action isn't some sort of scale tipping adventure to try to half heartedly make up for sins of our fathers, it's a program to address real discrimination in the here and now against real people in the real world. Because real people, living people, deserve to have opportunity. They are entitled to opportunity. And when they are denied opportunity, something should be fucking done about it.

And that is why the civil rights marches in 1968 were right. The catholics were being denied shelter in violation of fairness and the United Kingdoms own rules. And that was wrong. And doing something about it was right. But killing Anglicans because statistically probably some of their ancestors participated in the mass starvation of Irish people is wrong. It doesn't make sense. And so when the Official Irish Republican Army put up their demands for fair treatment in 1968 they were right. And when the Provisional Irish Republican Army violated a ceasefire agreement in 1972 and started assassinating people, they wrong.

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Post by name_here »

deaddmwalking wrote: In any case, going back to the IRA, I get the sense that Frank is saying 'what they're doing is bad, but if they kill enough people that disagree with them, we all ought to accept it - dead people don't get to complain'. That may reflect our moral realities, but it's not what I've come to expect from Frank. So I figure I'm missing something.
No, no, if the IRA kills enough people that disagree with them and then they all die of old age and their kids get their stuff we have to accept that. Because the other way is simultaneously punishing people for crimes they didn't commit and a bottomless well of insanity because every piece of land ever has been forcibly taken from someone, usually multiple times.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

If you're going to punish innocent people to dissuade potential criminals who do crimes for said innocent people, you're headed down a bottomless well of insanity.

[*] If a woman kills her spouse for the life insurance (by disguising her wife's death as an untimely accident) and uses the money to send their kids to college, should we revoke their degrees after the truth comes out?
[*] If a organ thief kills a dude and harvests their organs to implant in sick kids, should we carve out the organs and dispose of them?
[*] If a crazed athlete kills a colleague so that they won't be upstaged in the Olympics and the endorsing company becomes really famous by promoting the image of Suddenly-First-Place Athlete, should we fine said company for unknowingly profiting from a murderer?
[*] If someone kills the husband of a family and rape-impregnates the wife to destroy the lineage (which is unfortunately a classic tactic of ethnic cleansing in the real world), should we kill all of the children of said crime so that the murderer isn't 'rewarded' with the warm glow of having his ethnicity being the suddenly dominant one?

Seriously, if the perpetrator is beyond reach of the law and the victim is beyond the reach of reasonable charity, there's nothing that can be done.

EDIT: By the way, once you've endorsed retributive justice that targets innocent people in order to dissuade/punish the perpetrator, you're literally endorsing terrorism as a form of justice. Both because you're being a terrorist yourself and because you're incentivizing any particular terrorist to perform false flag operations for their cause. Seriously, that is exactly why we hated Bush Jr. and the rest of the braindead American conservatives so fucking much; by overreacting to Bin Laden's attack, they were playing right into his hands.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by TheFlatline »

I originally was going to say that Wish had a GP limit on what it could create, but that's apparently on only mundane items.

O.o
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking »

This has inspired a tangent for me - sorry for not sharing earlier.

We agree that Hawaiians of native descent can't really have their island back from the 'other people' who live there, too, because this is all the result of 'bad things' happening centuries ago. Anyone who can claim that their land was 'stolen' are long since dead and gone, and anyone trying to claim legal right extending from that displaced claim doesn't have any right we would consider legitimate because it would impact 'innocents' who also have claim to that land.

What does that mean, though, for particularly long-lived races? If you were a native Hawaiian displaced of your land 400 years ago, but you were still alive, how does that impact the equation? What if you've been fighting for your land this entire time? Does continuing the fight eliminate the status of 'innocent' descendants?

'Reclaiming lost lands' is something of a staple of fantasy and I think such a conflict where original actors (on one or both sides) still living introduces a wrinkle I haven't considered before.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I still want to know why you think that people should have ownership rights over land just because they were there first. That's key to your argument and you know what? I outright reject it. I can think of a lot of reasons to grant people ownership rights over land -- productivity, privacy, helps ensure more fundamental rights like food and opportunity, even mere opportunity costs -- but you'd be hard pressed to find a reason less compelling than 'my clan was here for thousands of years, so our property rights trump any other concerns'.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Ancient History »

gPolitics
Government, Law, and Power
AncientH:

Believe it or not, there was a point where Shadowrun had fan-inspired music. One of my favorites was Christoph Sachal, who did a great track called "Tir Tairngire." Other artists at the time were Alex Cremers (who I think might have put out a CD) and Alarin. Fair mix between early house and celtic stuff, most of them. I'm sure if I dug deep in my old CDs I might find the mp3s, but would you believe none of that is on youtube? Amazing. So instead, we'll listen to
this.

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FrankT:

Tir Tairngire gives 16 pages to the heading “Politics” and Tir na nOg gives 17 pages to the heading “Government, Law, and Power.” This falls under the “Politics” tab for the in-book browser for Tir Tairngire and the “Government” browser tab for Tir na nOg. Close enough, let's run the comparisons.

Tir Tairngires political flavor subheadings are: “Council of Princes,” “High Prince,” “Star Chamber,” “Internal Affairs,” “Foreign Relations,” and “Political Profiles.” Notably absent are things like “major lobbying groups,” “wedge issues,” “local leadership,” or really anything that you might actually care about as a Shadowrunner or someone who wanted to accomplish anything in the political field. This is set up like a 3rd grade civics lesson that fucked a People magazine article rather than something that's supposed to be of any use in the game.

Tir na nOg's Government heading is divided up into “Political Parties,” “Law and Order,” “Law Enforcement,” “Crimes and Punishment,” “Hidden Power,” “Other Factions,” and “Relations with Foreign Powers.” Flipping through the book, that looks way more on-topic. Some of those sub-headings should probably be moved to other chapters, but they all seem at least vaguely on topic. Let's see how it holds up...
AncientH:

The basic problem with game setting books is that they prefer a top-down perspective on the country - geography, history, politics, these aren't feet on the street. This isn't a matter of fiction imitating real life, though you get a fair bit of tourist material along these lines because it's easy to write. When you design a fictional country you tend to do it top-down fashion, so plenty of writers merge the design work directly into writing and give you this top-down approach. But think about it, you're some random in-setting character that just put sneaker to cobbles in Portland, do you give a fuck about the Tir constitution and the Council of Princes? Not really. You want to know about the exchange rate and any weird policies involving toilets and whether you're ever going to find some food you can eat. The immediate laws you care about are the ones that affect your personal existence at the moment; the contents of Lofwyr's lingerie drawer just aren't within your scope.

But on the other hand, Mister Caverns are top-down kinda people too. They like to have an idea of the behind-the-scenes, how nationalities think of each other and interact, all that high-level stuff. Still, I think that misses the step of really putting a face and a name to government. It's not enough just to know who's on the Council of Princes (TT) or Council of Stewards (TNN), if they're just random names then that's all so much wasted space.

Anyway, onto the Tirs. Tir Tairngire is essentially a one-party system. You've got something like a parliamentary monarchy with a High Prince instead of a king or queen; Tir na nOg is closer to the contemporary Irish government, a parliamentary democracy - except it's dominated by a bunch of elf-heavy noble families and there's a spiritual/political body on the side called the Seelie Court.
FrankT:


Tir na nOg's government chapter can't go one fucking page before getting its dick in its mouth. Apparently one of the ways they consolidate power in the hands of Elves is by putting the political power in the senate, and then requiring people to be 24 in order to vote for senators. Because Elves live a long time so that concentrates their power or something. This is insane. First of all, in 2034, when this system was put in place, the oldest Elves were 23. Fucking fuck! If you up the voting age to 24, you just literally disenfranchised your entire cohort of Elven child soldiers. Even in 2054, a considerable majority of Elves are under the age of 24. Meanwhile, exactly zero Humans, Orks, or Trolls who were born since Elves started being born have died of old age. Because they are only 43 years old. Even if Elves turn out to be super long lived and Orks turn out to be really short lived (as the original Shadowrun books hypothesized), it wouldn't make any fucking difference in 2054. None of the cohorts have had a chance to die of old age. Meanwhile, Orks and Trolls goblinize, so along with Humans they have a smooth birth rate going back to before the Awakening – a high age of majority doesn't disproportionately harm anyone except Elves and Dwarves.

Because Elves and Dwarves are a birth cohort, while Orks and Trolls have equal prevalence across age groups. Heck, Orks have early puberty compared to Elves, so their second generation are going to hit any arbitrary age of majority you care to name earlier. So even if Orks were a birth cohort, a higher voting age would still hurt them less in the foreseeable political future than it would hurt Elves and Dwarves.
AncientH:

A lot of the elf-wankery in both books is predicated on the idea that elves are long-lived. Not ageless like in Tolkien, but with a longer expected life span than everyone else. Which is weird in hindsight; I understand where it came from, and I was a nerd about such things for a while, but y'know back in the Neolithic humans had pretty low life expectancy because of the dangers of childbirth, sabertooth tigers, cholera, and choking on mammoth gristle, but if you made it past 35 you had a good chance of making it to 70 - and technology has only improved. Contemporary lifespans are higher than at any point in history, and there's no reason to expect that an ork or troll in SR might not live to be 120 if they get the right healthcare.

Except, of course, in SR orcs and trolls are the standins for black people, and black people in the contemporary United States have a lower life expectancy than white people. Not for any biological reason, but purely for economic and legal reasons. But the biological aging suggestion given in Shadowrun First Edition took hold early, and it got weird fast - not only do orcs give birth in litters, but they mature faster! Physically and sexually mature by 8, life expectancy of 35 for trolls... Y'know, it's just a bit of weirdness, and probably nobody would think twice about it except that Shadowrun also inherited the Tolkien/D&D antipathy between elves and the "goblin" races. So what was a racial metaphor for black people got merged with the existing fantasy racial paradigm, and just got fucking weird. We'll get more into that later on.
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire gives very little information about the government or political situation in the “Politics” heading. Most of it is taken up with shadowtalk of people being incredulous about the idea of spike babies. That's the idea that there are a tiny number of Elves that were born before the Awakening started for real that we talked about earlier. It's simply established canon that this is a thing that happened, and by Tir na nOg they just sort of rolled with it and had O'Connor simply be publicly known to have been a spike baby. But in Tir Tairngire it's supposed to be a deep dark secret that this had ever happened, so there's lots of shadowtalk arguing back and forth about it. It was more interesting to read at the time, but considering that Mr. Findley had already established the idea three years earlier with the Century Ferret, it wasn't that interesting even in 1993. In retrospect it kind of comes off as two thirds of every page being filled with disposable filler text.

The entire section on the Council of Princes is pretty much a waste of space. Tir Tairngire's supreme legislative and executive power is handled by a council that has secret members that are appointed... by the council. Kind of like the old school Roman Senate, but much smaller. The twist is that a bunch of the members are immortal highlanders who automagically win if they ever come in contact with you because lol go fuck yourself. So honestly it does not and can not make any fucking difference to the players who is or is not on the council. You specifically can't do diddly dick to the council members in any context so you're never going to meet any of them. It's a waste of space. Also, not to put too fine a point on it: but there are thirteen of these assholes, and most of them are just “mysterious.” Those mysteries were never addressed by any later authors, and Nigel Findley probably never would have addressed them had he survived because these were not mysteries that were capable of mattering to player characters.

Much is made over various council decisions to add various dudes to the council. And no one fucking cares, because it doesn't matter. There is a fucking Great Dragon on the council, and that still doesn't matter. You're never going to interact with the council, and even the edicts issued by the council are so high-level that they'd be passed through several intermediary levels of government before they were actually implemented in a way that could actually affect people on the ground. The mayor of Portland is more important at the level the PCs operate at than any or all of these assholes.

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They Who Sit Above In Shadow
AncientH:

Part of the problem is...well, think Dr. Claw in Inspector Gadget. He works because he sits in shadow and you never see him. That's his purpose. He doesn't change. Mysteries are there for the benefit of Mister Cavern, so they can fill in whatever the fuck they want and nobody can call bullshit. So the secret members of the Council of Princes and Immortal Elves aren't there as GM-dick NPCs as much as they are pieces of plot furniture there for the gamemaster to do whatever the fuck he or she wants with.

Part of the problem is that Shadowrun is so old that people can literally grow up reading Shadowrun, and then start reading it. Fuck, I did it. I was like, 12 or 13 when I first read SR, and 10-15 years later I was writing for the game! So what was a fan-quibble or somebody's personal take on a character or situation suddenly becomes a major thing. It's why I think the changes to Tir Tairngire were handled in a fairly silly and arbitrary manner; the writers took pot shots at the weird old IEs that nobody had really used for a decade but fans had been fuming about because of crap that happened in a couple novels, so they get the fucking boot...and the nation is still the same unplayable mess it always was, it's just less interesting now.
FrankT:

There's much ink lost on the exact process for selecting a chief executive, but since the high prince serves for life and the people selected for it are frickin Immortal Highlanders I can't imagine why it matters. Also, if you're elected and serve for life and no one had to die for you to get the position, you're not a high prince. You're a doge.

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No.

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Yes.

Tir na nOg, meanwhile, has three leaders. There's a President (who's directly elected by majority rules), there's the Prime Minister (who's the leader of the winning party in the parliamentary elections), and the Queen (who is secret and doesn't get elected or selected at all). The Prime Minister's biggest power is that he gets to appoint nearly a fifth of the senate, and apparently the senate is where most of the power is. So while there are elections and shit, they don't really matter because the people actually running things are the representatives of your representatives and no matter who you vote for it's the same couple of wealthy families actually running things. Remember that all of Tir na nOg has a population roughly equal to that of Minneapolis and any if there was only one leader he or she would still be less important than the mayor of Houston.

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Hey prime minister!

Either of the Elvish nations have a somewhat plausible dystopian government, but it's still hard to see how it would matter to Shadowrunners because the rest of the world is operating under the assumption that no matter who you vote for the megacorporations will or already have them in their pocket. A lot of Shadowrun books go into presidential elections being fixed or obviated or whatever, and it's just so much jaw flapping. We're already at the stage where you can't be a viable candidate for high office without millions of dollars from corporate sponsors, so I genuinely don't see what the point of having elections be fraudulent (TNN) or nonexistent (TT) even is. Cyberpunk posits that your vote doesn't matter because the rich and powerful own all the viable candidates, and any variation on that is just local color worth no more than a paragraph or two. That you live in an oligarchy is simply understood by the genre you are in, how the oligarchs are nominally selected is of little interest.
AncientH:

Except, of course, the Tirs shit on the corporate oligarchy. This is never really explained very well, but the long story short is that neither of the nations signed the Business Recognition Accords that afford megacorps the status of extraterritoriality (basically, their own countries). I don't want to go into this too much because there's more on it later, but it's just another example of how the small ruling cliques in both countries stacked the political deck in their own favor.

The pseudo-nobility thing in both Tirs cosmetically looks like an attempt to layer on some D&D-ish monarchy to a modern country and by that standard looks innovative compared to D&D or most comparable games at the time. Objectively, it's still a bit of "High Prince of the Anime Club" approach; I'd respect it more if it looks like the immortals were planning long-term to transition to an honest system of nobility instead of apparently implementing a full-blown nigh-nobility system right from day zero. Part of this might be my reading lately, because I've been looking at history and how the collapse of the Roman empire led to the development of the feudal system...and this doesn't look anything like that. At no point are the individual princes or members of the Irish nobility supposed to be military powers in an of themselves (individual groups of paladins not withstanding), nor do they have invested in their inheritable position powers of the state. The Mayor of Portland is not a title in the Ke'ebler family.

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My dad will get me out of this, breeder!

On the other hand, most of the other elf-states in Europe are pretty honestly and openly old-school nobilities, which makes no sense. The Duchess of Snowdonia is in the peerage, but she isn't like a fucking Medieval duke with a castle and standing troops and shit. Or shouldn't be. But she is.
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire really likes to make words work extra hard. Words like “Prince” and “Paladin” apply to social ranks, government ranks, and things you do. And one or more of these meanings might apply to a person. So you could be a Paladin but not a Paladin and still be a Paladin. And inflection and context can actually have that mean something.

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Tir na nOg goes the other way. They have three official languages, so simple concepts are repeated in English, Irish Gaelic, and Sperethiel. Which is basically how Ireland actually works, so there's that.

Both of these things are good local flavor, even though it's hard to say that they matter all that much. More wordcount is lavished on these concepts than they deserve, so I guess we're really just judging these sections on whether they are fun to read. Tir Tairngire is better written and the more engrossing read, so I guess that it wins this particular comparison. That being said, Tir Tairngire rambles on for three actual pages ruminating about the possibilities of 24 literal dudes who are elite presidential guards, which is just pointless.
AncientH:

I'm not going to go on about the IEs on the council, or Lofwyr. I did the Ancient Files for years, there are mirrors of it still out there, if you want the skinny go look it up.

One thing you'll notice is that Tir na nOg doesn't have a lot of IEs front and present. Pretty much none of the recognizable crew, and weirdly even in later production they never got more named IEs. I think this was either a deliberate effort to avoid IE proliferation, or just an oversight by the authors of TNN who just didn't think of it. It doesn't matter much either way, except that when the next generation of writers came along to fuck with Elf-island, they didn't have any specific targets.
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire's representative parallel government is called the “Star Chamber” which is supposedly the government of Tir Tairngire borrowing “a word with historical resonance.” When I was 15 and reading through this book at DrPraetor's house, that flew completely over my head. But now that I know a bit more history, that's actually very funny. Here, I'll quote wikipedia here:
Wikipedia wrote:As the U.S. Supreme Court described it, "the Star Chamber has, for centuries, symbolized disregard of basic individual rights. The Star Chamber not merely allowed, but required, defendants to have counsel. The defendant's answer to an indictment was not accepted unless it was signed by counsel. When counsel refused to sign the answer, for whatever reason, the defendant was considered to have confessed."
The “historical resonance” of the term is that the Star Chamber was a kafkaesque nightmare accountable to no one and charged with abrogating fundamental civil and human rights. That's what it means. If you call a bureaucratic body a “Star Chamber” that's an insult that is roughly equivalent to calling an executive “Fuhrer” or a police officer “Commissar.” Looking back with older eyes, this section is actually hilarious.

Of course, I actually don't know if Findley was in on the joke. And he's dead, so I can't ask him.
AncientH:

I guess at this point we should talk about that Tir na nOg actually has political parties, which are derived more or less from Irish political parties and are thus fairly realistic, even if not accurate compared to contemporary Irish politics. It's probably the most realistic part of the TNN politics section, and the kind of thing that could be important and influential in a way that American politics usually isn't - because we have two major parties, winner take all, and only fringe groups get militarized; Europe (and Ireland) have much longer histories of strongly divisive and proliferating political parties. Or maybe it just looks to us Americans like Europeans spend an obscene amount of time talking about communism and fascism and drinking heavily. Anyway, the thing is that you can see a bunch of burly orcs and trolls that are staunchly Labour.
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Her blood boils in holy water.
FrankT:

The Internal Affairs section of Tir Tairngire stays pretty high level. In Tir Tairngire everything we think of as “rights” (whether human or civil) are actually “privileges” that exist for each person at the pleasure of the high prince. So the government can, and often does, simply declare that one person or another doesn't have freedom of speech anymore and if they keep blabbing they are going to the Bastille. Then we get a brief rundown on how the government can and does execute anybody it wants because “treason” can include anything that the government feels harms the country in any way, which could basically be anything. And finally we get a thing on how the country has the Chinese system of government petitions for redress, where the government decides what to do with your appeal against the decision of the government, but doesn't actually reject all challenges for PR reasons even though they obviously could. This is all presented as being unusual for an autocratic regime, but honestly it's exactly the system used by pre-revolution France or the modern day PRC. Again, I don't know if the revelatory tone or Elven exceptionalism was supposed to be ironic or not.

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We're living in a dictatorship!

Meanwhile, Tir na nOg has many short pieces about different kinds of law, most of which are little snippets to remind you that things are fucking weird. It's more weird than it used to be, because now it's a blend of adversarial and inquisitorial law. Like Quebec I guess. And yeah, that sounds like a nightmarish headache and would take more than a paragraph and a couple snarky comments to untangle, but you don't get that. Really, most of this could have better been summed up with a short bit like “The law in Tir na nOg is a byzantine, kafkaesque affair where the Garda can basically arrest you at any time for any reason or no reason at all. They have vast discretionary powers, and some of the laws are literally secret and you can get arrested for breaking them. Good luck!” That would have been more useful than what we actually got.

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AncientH:

Tir na nOg has a classic SR-style fines and punishments table, which is a big matrix showing crimes by category and what your expected punishment would be. This is kinda sorta useful, but honestly if your PC makes it to court you should probably make a new character and get on with the fucking game. It's one of those weird instances where it's not-quite-out-of-character information, so they stuck it all the way up here. Tir Tairngire has a similar table way deeper in the book. The prices are pretty comparable once you account for the currency exchange; the Irish elves are a bit lighter on some of the jail sentences and heavier on others, but again it's not something that should ever come up in your game ever.

Really, the Tirs should have based their justice systems on the Japanese if they want a really ridicockulous way of screwing over people.

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Goblin/Elf race relations took a dive after this campaign.
FrankT:

The foreign relations section of Tir Tairngire is not all that helpful. Basically, Tir Tairngire are a bunch of giant assholes who demand that they be allowed to consider their ticket booths in airports Tir Tairngire territory subject to Tir Tairngire laws. Considering how small and bullshit Tir Tairngire is, I have no idea why any country would seriously consider their weird demands. Tir Tairngire is a small country that is diplomatically isolated. They need trading partners far more than any particular nation needs to trade with them, so they don't appear to have any diplomatic leverage at all against anyone. There's a whole section on their weird and dysfunctional relationship with “Tir Nan Og” which is extremely different according to the Tir na nOg book.

Speaking of the Tir na nOg book, they have a section on foreign relations as well. It's actually considerably longer than the TT writeup and calls out a lot more international relationships. Oddly, I think this might be even less helpful. Tir Tairngire talked about specific trade routes and legal issues with shipping goods and people, things that player characters might actually use. Tir na nOg tells us that France and the Tir vote together on EEC trade deals – apparently because it's still 1992 in 2054. Though I still don't understand how Tir na nOg can even be part of the EEC if they are also doing their crazy isolationist border policies.
AncientH:

We'll get to the economics, but both Frank and I have noted that based on straight numbers both Tirs need somebody or something to keep bankrolling them. There's just not enough population or industry to meet their local needs, much less let them get away with high-tech, high-magic imports the way they're supposed to be doing. These are all tree-hugging elves who don't like mining and tree-clearing, so I have no idea how they're meeting basic food requirements. Maybe it's just that it's the high-tech future and the Tirs can handle their basic subsistence for next to nothing and can thus vastly increase the types of goods they're importing...or maybe the megacorps operating in the Tirs are all variants on the Kaeson Industrial Region except with elf forced labor, bringing in desperately needed nuyen. It's not like they're Snowdonia with orichalcum mines (yet).
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire's politics chapter ends with a who's who of people on the prince's council. I can't even pretend to give a shit. So instead I'll talk about some of the other sections that show up in Tir na nOg that Tir Tairngire handwaved. We'll get to their types of laws and shit in more detail when we get to Tir Tairngire's society. Tir na nOg maintains its independence in the face of an overtly hostile Britain despite having 7000 soldiers. Yes, that's right, seven thousand. That's one soldier for every thirty British soldiers, give or take. This is supposed to be made up for by three things:
  • Tir na nOg's vast and ruthlessly efficient police force. Yes, really. The police are supposed to keep the Limeys out.
  • Tir na nOg's extremely effective terrorists. These guys periodically blow up shit in London, but apparently the threat they'd do that, I don't know, more or something if the United Kingdom actually raised a hand against Tir na nOg is supposed to be some sort of major deterrent rather than a Casus Belli.
  • Tir na nOg's got magic users. They got magic. Like, pretty good magic. Their druids are totally different from your druids, and also better. And that is why they are able to stare down a country with twenty times their
    population and also weapons of mass destruction.
This doesn't make any fucking sense. If you thought that a hyper militarized Oregon staring down California was retarded (and it was), this is a paramilitarized Ireland staring down the United Fucking Kingdom. It's more ridiculous in every possible way. It's like a masturbation fantasy of an IRA volunteer: if they get just a little better at blowing up school children with car bombs, the British will slink away and give up territorial designs on Ulster for good!
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AncientH:

I should touch on the magic aspect, because Tir Tairngire doesn't really have a section on it and Tir na nOg has far too much of a section devoted to it.

Large scale magic in Shadowrun is a thing hinted at but largely absent from a mechanical standpoint. This pisses off some people, not so much because they want to do their own Ghost Dance but it sticks in their craw that Shadowrun magicians are so powerful on a local level but are still metahuman and pretty much susceptible to nukes and thermobaric weapons and lasers and sniper rifles and...well, it's the whole industrial magic feel. People feel that there should be some mechanism for bigger effects than casting a Force 40 Hellfire spell.

And yes, technically there are - Frank has gone on at length about how the spirit power Movement is overpowered and underutilized, among other things - and given that 1 in 100 individuals has magical talent, than India should have the largest number of magicians in raw numbers of any country on Earth. Even if half of them are shit or never develop, they should be able to field regiments of physical adepts. There are more magicians in India than Tir na nOg has people.

Anyway, despite being lands of magic with probably verifiably higher percentages of magicians in terms of population, the Tirs don't explicity have much magic to them. Tir Tairngire has Crater Lake and some mana lines and maybe was working on the Great Ward; Tir na nOg has the Veil and more ley lines and power sites and some magical storms; both have cybermantic clinics (though cybermancy isn't a thing yet, so that was added later). But the thing is, you don't have a lot of directed magic, aside from the Veil. So while they talk about how mysterious and magical the Seelie Court is or the Council of Princes, it's really not too impressive because it's using the same rules that your gang of crack mages in Seattle are using. It's (almost) all fluff.
FrankT:

Tir na nOg has a lot of factions. It doesn't just have a lot of different kinds of druids, although it does. It has a lot of layers of government and a lot of terrorist groups, secret societies, religious, and political movements. Basically it has all the factions of the Republic of Ireland plus most of the factions of Northern Ireland plus a bunch of extra bullshit magical ones. I remind you: this entire island has the population of Minneapolis and no two people on it are more than three degrees of separation from each other. There are 33,000 millionaires and five billionaires in modern day Ireland, and every reason to believe that wealth is even more concentrated in Tir na nOg. You could fit every single rich and powerful person in Tir na nOg and their personal valet in the Dublin football stadium. That is not an exaggeration. So having multiple levels of secret government is pretty pointless. Having the Queen give orders to the Seelie Court to give orders to the Danaan Families to give orders to the Council of Stewards to give orders to the Senate to craft legislation is at least two levels of secret government more than there can possibly be any purpose for.
AncientH:

Okay, let's wrap up politics: it's mostly high level; it suffers from the "you have ascended to Vice-President of the Anime Club!" problem; it puts the IEs front in center (for Tir Tairngire) and the insanity of Irish politics front in center (for Tir na nOg). Neither is really realistic, neither is very cyberpunk - it's a dystopia, but it's a sort of an 1890s dystopia except with tiny countries with their own peerage. Part of this is inherent in what it's trying to be, the whole "Elrond comes to Oregon" thing, which is admittedly more difficult than trying to just set up a typical fantasy monarchy. So maybe it was a bit ambitious, and admittedly when I first read Tir Tairngire I was more preoccupied with the novel mystery of the players-behind-the-scenes than the political realities; when I first read Tir na nOg I didn't fucking care about the politics, looked for the IEs, didn't find them and got confused. So many years on, I'm more than a little jaded and reading it with different eyes, and there are some flaws there I didn't see before.

Still better than the typical fantasy elf monarchy.
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Did you know Oglaf had a wiki?
TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

I really like this OSSR, mainly because I like SR history but also because it's an interesting look at how the game was developed.

I have this alternate history in the back of my head, especially for TT, of a bunch of disenfranchised high school students and college students entering post-grad age who had spent their life ostracized, poked at, and generally segmented away after the Elves started showing up. There are no IEs involved in the founding of TT, just a bunch of kids who collectively are looking for a new cultural identity and they find refuge at that age, as many kids do, in a particular fantasy epic from an early 20th century english author who must remain nameless. But instead of wonder and fantasy escapism, these kids latch onto a cultural identity of being... different. Older. Superior. Closer to the land. What starts as basically 4chan.com/ElfPride/ becomes an experiment in Oregon mixing hippie commune with Tolkien cultural identity (Occupy Portland anyone?) and it draws elves in from across North America. At this point, when they're a struggling, founding city/state, the IEs might show up and start trying to influence things.

This TT is xenophobic because 90% of the population still actively remembers being persecuted and isolated. Their government is fucked up because it's literally founded by college dropouts and high school graduates whose main identifying quality is a desperate need for cultural identity that accepts them. So it's actually a government that sounds "cool" on paper but is going through growing pains. It's got going for it a lot of highly motivated, passionate, possibly even brilliant talent at the top of their forming society, and much like an internet startup of the 2000's, are only too happy to take investor money and crank out... whatever. Magic, tech, I don't particularly give a shit.

That way, the supposed nobility or lineages or whatever is there to try to provide some kind of astroturf cultural stability, and you not only get Elf-fap to Tolkien, but you also get to basically cop to it and still keep going. Your political factions consist of the power mongers and the people who believe that a stable oligarchy will result in cultural identity and "national" cohesion (this group literally includes the former VP of the Anime Club), the hippie dippy elves who want to bake lembas and sing bad songs because that's what The Big Book had them do (which is where you get your sub-faction of eco terrorists), and the kind of anarcho-communist commune folks who are more social experimenters and believe that TT is an excellent place to build some totally *new* social structure that hasn't been tried before because the entire population of TT is not just immigrant, but like, still 1st generation immigrant that has come to TT specifically to abandon old social norms.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History »

gTir Society
Ways and Paths

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FrankT:

The chapters we're doing aren't in order for Tir na nOg anymore, because Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg don't have equivalent chapters in the same order once the first couple are done with. They just do their own things. Tir Tairngire's “Tir Society” major heading is about Tir Tairngire's bizarre racist meritocratic aristocracy and runs 21 pages before that book's “Economy” major heading. Tir na nOg's “Ways and Paths” major heading is about Tir na nOg's weird predestined hereditary regional magic system and runs 17 pages after that book's “Economy” major heading. Meh. Close enough. Today's chapter theme is “how do Elves know they are better than you?”

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AncientH:

By RPG standards, Shadowrun does fairly well in keeping down the metahuman sub-breeds. This is good in some cases, bad in others. This is why to really understand elves in Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg, you first have to understand trolls.

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No, really, I'm going somewhere with this.

Trolls are big, and by metahuman standards generally considered less attractive - or so their Charisma penalties are meant to indicate. They typically have tusks, horns, and bony build-ups on their bodies that render them asymmetrical. Most of them can also break you in half and troll women are noted for having some of the largest breasts. But I digress.

When writing Paranormal Animals of Europe, Sargent & Gasciogne created the Fomori, a troll that had been infected with a variant of the Human-Metahuman Vampiric Virus (HMHVV). This turned the poor plague victims into gilled, furry, sub-sapient cannibals whose skin leaked corrosive secretions, with a preference to dwell in swampy areas.

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With me so far?

Then, many years later, the Shadowrun Companion came out. One of the things in it were metavariants, regional variations of normal metahumans that cropped up from time to time. So you had pale green elves that were allergic to urban areas, and fuzzy blue elves that were like Nightcrawler without the tail or two dicks, and you had a handsome, Celtic troll variant called the Fomori.

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I said NO Charisma penalty!

So you've got two troll-critters called "Fomori" - the cannibalistic swamp-dwelling plague critter, and the handsome Gaelic metavariant. Then you get to Tir na nOg, and Fomor has an actual meaning in in Irish mythology. Which Tir na nOg mythology is based off of. And it's not a positive association. So already in speech you're wondering if somebody bitching about Fomori is talking about the HMHVV critter, the metavariant, or just orks and trolls and general. But the Tir elves basically don't split the difference. Tir na nOg's Ways and Paths is basically a new pagan religion excuse to persecute a minority, in this case trolls (and orks).

It's up in the air how much of this was accidental. Like I said, Sargent & Gasciogne did the Fomori (HMHVV) bit before Tir na nOg was written, so you could write that off as coincidence/bad judgment. But the Shadowrun Companion came later, so there's no excuse for that. And really, there's no good excuse for making elves in Tir na nOg a bunch of racist anti-troll pricks.

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FrankT:


The first page of Tir Tairngire's Tir Society major heading contains a couple of major continuity errors. We come out swinging with the sub-heading “Race” where it explains that despite having pan-metahuman language in its founding charter, Tir Tairngire is an Elf country. So far, so good: in the real world the Republic of the Union of Myanmar claims to speak for its 32% non-Burmese citizens too. Then it tries to explain why Elves are a super majority and sticks its tongue in the electric socket of continuity problems.

Explanation one is that the Metahuman tribal enclaves were declared by an Elf, so Elves were much more likely to go than non-Elves. Which makes plenty of sense until you remember that 28 pages earlier in this book they revealed the Elvish nature of the guy declaring the enclaves – for the first time in Shadowrun history. Back then, he was wearing a fake beard and pretending to be a Human. Also, this call went out when the oldest Elves in the general population were in junior high, so it's not like they were plausibly “in on the secret” to any demographically important degree.

Explanation two is that Orks and Trolls just have a predilection to living in cities and the idea of running around the woods just didn't appeal to them the way it did for Elves. The problem here is two-fold. First, that while Orks are described in Shadowrun lore as wanting to live in dense apartments, Trolls are actually the opposite. They like space and don't get lonely easily. Trolls, moreso even than Elves, are naturally drawn to rural and even wilderness living. If you're going to use a racial stereotypes argument for justifying population migration, you should at least get the arguments right.

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Racist stereotypes of 2054 are evidently just as perplexing in the present as the racist stereotypes of 1954.
AncientH:

Which is why the other metahuman NAN tribe is the Cascade Orks. No, seriously.
There's some hemming and hawing about why elves tend to be richer - I personally liked it when Sargent & Gasciogne admitted in The London Sourcebook that royals just cribbed-death'd any orks or trolls that came out, which is part of the reason the UK peerage has more elves than other metatypes.

But, and I want to emphasize this, at least racism is a conversation you can have in Shadowrun. You can talk about how some clinical study on UGE and goblinization was biased by the Humanis Policlub, as they talk about here. You can't really do that in D&D; it's a fairly advanced social concept that gets about as much play as Greek-style government brothels propping up the republic or stringent rules for citizenship. In SR, though, it's an interesting talking point.

Aside from being an Elf-majority for ill-defined reasons - prior planning, heavily supported immigration, yadda yadda. Nominally, Tir Tairngire has the most stringent anti-discrimination laws on the books; in point of fact, these grand laws are rarely enforced. (There's also a page xx error that makes my heart bleed).
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire wrote:Legally, no form of racial discrimination is sanctioned in employment, accommodation, club membership, public transit, restaurants, immigration, emigration, taxation, pricing, public office, and advancement in social rank (see [b[Social Rank[/b], p. xx).
In the early nineties, game books had a lot of page XX errors. Both Shadowrun and Vampire eventually issued dickish mea culpas by printing books that actually had pages entitled “Page XX” in them. Neither did something classy like put out errata lists on that page telling you where things in various books actually were. There was a general opinion at the time that page XX errors indicated that game books had incredibly shitty editing. And that's actually not true. The massive numbers of typographical errors and mystery punctuation indicated that these books had incredibly shitty editing. Page XX errors are actually the fault of the typesetting.

See the order of operations is that you submit a manuscript as a writer, then developers take issue with content, editors go through the work for structural errors, and then and only then the text is sent to typesetting to have the text merged with finished art and placed into pages to be converted to a series of printing plates. Only after the text is placed with the art can you know what page any particular text is actually on, and only then can you go through the book to convert all the placeholder double-Xs to their real targets. This is shit simple to do with a computer, but it was kind of a pain in the ass in the old days when you didn't have ways to effectively text search your printing proofs.

Having page XX issues definitely does imply that someone was fucking up. It's just that it doesn't inherently mean that “Senior Editor” Donna Ippolito wasn't doing her job. It means that they had two people on Layout and one person on “Keyline and Pasteup” and no one thought it was their job to find and fix the page citations so it didn't get done.
AncientH:

Racism in Tir Tairngire is your basic Jim Crow stuff at every level. Non-elf metahumans get charged more, don't get served well in restaurants, pay more taxes, and most don't get elected to any public position. And remember, this is the country that elected a fucking sasquatch into its highest political body because, in true internet fashion, his plushies sold the most.

(No word on what happens to elf poseurs, but presumably some true Fight Club shenanigans occur.)

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FrankT:

Tir na nOg's Ways and Paths are... unnecessarily complicated. The idea that you even could (let alone should) portray the differences between magic traditions with subtle mechanical differences or selections from short lists was an innovation from 2005. I'm literally the person who developed the 10 spirit type model, and I got a lot of grognard pushback on that even from other writers (*cough threattraditions*cough*). This book came out twelve years before then, and I was not arguing for such a change because it was written while I was in junior high and I hadn't thought of it yet. As far as the designers (and most of the fans) of the time were concerned, more rules meant more flavor. Tir na nOg's magic system attempted to have the most flavor. Ever.

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It will work.

Now the actual mechanics are in the game mechanics section at the back. This major heading is about describing how Danaan magical, spiritual, and racialist thought works in character. For 17 pages. There's a five by eight “mystic ways table” that must be further explained to us with such wisdom as “The conjunction of sun, moon, and stars in the Center Way denotes all times, both day and night.” It's all quite intricate, and I have no idea why any of this happened. It's a bizarre mishmash of Celtic mythology, neo-pagan wiccanism, hippy goggled hinduism, and Earthdawn allusions. It looks like the authors were trying to go the whole Tékumel on us and make their special Elvish magical tradition be fully realized. But really, this reads like Time Cube more than serious speculative anthropology.
AncientH:

The year after this was published, Denizens of Earthdawn, Volume 1 came out for Earthdawn (1st edition).

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A better book than you would think.

The Earthdawn version of Elves have a Ways & Paths thing, but the difference is it's sane. The Tir na nOg version has four magical orders with specific attached traditions with more benefits and requirements than any other tradition in any edition of Shadowrun. This is literally the nadir of magical tradition complexity in Shadowrun, and it's 1993. There's a reason some of this shit was walked back.

Part of that was because of the druids. I promised myself I'd save this rant for the magic chapter, but I'm getting it out of the way now. Sargent & Gasciogne basically created druids for Shadowrun in The London Sourcebook, and those were basically hard-coded into the rules when they popped up again in Grimoire. Except they were insane about it. You could be a British Hermetic Mage and be a druid, or you could be a Scottish Shaman and be a druid, or you could be a Welsh Shaman and be a druid, and they had different fucking totem lists to choose from, and then they introduced a special type of aspected magician called the Cornish bards which were basically fuck you, initiation because they couldn't do it and only got one metamagic but it was the best one and they had it from day one.

There's not actually a lot of benefit to being a druid - I mean, you had your magical cauldron and your sickle and put up a circle of stones instead of a lodge or whatever, and you could tap the ley-lines that crisscrossed the British Isles. Which is where some of the problems started.

Because in this book, they introduce two more types of druids! You have the Ways & Path Elf druid, and you have Irish druids with their own distinct fucking totems, and Ireland has a bunch of ley lines too except somebody fucked up on the "lines" part because they're a bunch of squiggly fucking things instead of the bullshit straight-as-an-arrow leys over in the UK.

Also, technically ze Germanz and French have druids that use European idols instead of totems, but honestly at that point nobody really fucking cares.

My point being, Sargent & Gasciogne really needlessly complicated the Shadowrun magic rules for over a decade for no real reason. It took until SR4 to really get the last vestiges of it scrubbed down to something sane.

Because really, I just want a street druid scraping blue moss off the subway wall with his homemade sickle and brewing awakened drugs to get fucked up on. Is that too much to ask?

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So I like Grant Morrison. Shut the fuck up.
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire's unofficial apartheid rules get a lot of ink. Legally they can't refuse to rent you an apartment for being a non-Elf, but they can choose to not rent to you if you are “not suitable.” So landlords can and will balk at Orkish renters on various flimsy excuses. This is good atmosphere and fun to read, even if it isn't terribly useful or groundbreaking. Real black people have to deal with this shit all the time, and in the early nineties it was worse (and in the early sixties it was much worse). This was Shadowrun playing political advocacy plain and simple. It's for a good cause (let's be real here: apartheid style systems are wrong and they are real things in the real world that hurt real people), and the prose is engaging. I didn't have a problem with it at the time, and junior highschool me found it fascinating.

Early Shadowrun had no problem throwing down political advocacy. They were pro-environment, pro-minority rights, anti-corporate, and anti-government and they weren't afraid to tell you that. They were left-anarchist punks, or at least wishy washy liberals who thought the idea of being left-anarchist punks was laudable and romantic. And when you read stuff by the original core authors, this point of view comes out right away. Native American rights are good, racism is bad, environmentalism is good, the coal lobby is bad. And so on. As the author pool got bigger, the political voice got muddled. Some of the later authors are rightwing libertarian types or devoutly religious, which really doesn't go well with a game that posited a neo-pagan revival and openly sympathized with eco-terrorists.

And you can see that muddling going on even with Tir na nOg. Sargent and Gascoigne don't just want the Irish people to have their own republic (which I point out: they already do), they want the Irish to get all weird and neo-pagan and punish the Brits with terrorism and stuff. Obviously, the authors are writing an oppressive dystopia, so there has to be bad stuff here, but the authors are also cheerleading some pretty bizarre policies like protectionism and de-industrialization. See, the oppression is bad, but people don't rise up against it because other policies work so well – which are of course the things that the book is actually advocating. And with the Ways and Paths chapter, there's no much gobbledegook philosophy in here that I can't help but think that one or both of the authors is trying to sneak in proselytization for their personal religious beliefs. And it is no less crazy than when Dave Sim went down that path.
AncientH:

It's probably worth talking about the actual antipathy between the two Tirs. At first they were kinda-sorta chummy, but pretty quick it turned into a Vulcan and Romulus situation.

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Basically, they don't get along and view each other with suspicion. There's no really good reason for this given, though if you read between the lines it's supposed to be an IE spat or deep-seated spiritual/political divide, probably because the Tir Tairngire guys aren't about to recognize the authority of the Seelie Court and the Tir na nOg guys declared the TT guys "false spirits." Nevertheless, some of the young'uns haven't gotten the memo and try for a sort of reunification of the elven homelands.
FrankT:

In one of the few nods to the general youth of actual Elves in the Shadowrun setting, when Tir Tairngire was first founded, the age of majority was 16, and they raised it to 17 in 2045 and 18 in 2052. Now by my calculations, that's actually still not “a few years younger than the average age of most elves at the time.” But at least they acknowledge that it's a teenage rebellion at the beginning. That's more than most of the rest of the book does. And a lot more than all of the Tir na nOg book does. Upon reaching the age of majority in Tir Tairngire, you undergo a rite of passage and get to name yourself, which is why Elves in Tir Tairngire all have stupid names that sound like they were made to sound mysterious and sylvan by teenagers. Because they totally were.
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It would be better if they chose their Elf Names this way.
In Tir na nOg Elf children are fostered out to other Elf families so that every Elf can grow up having a same sex life partner. There's a gay joke there, but I'm too lazy to tell it. Tir na nOg officially recognizes Elf Reincarnation, so Elves get their official bios updated based on the rambling stories they tell when they are six. They don't need to have their names rewritten, because Irish names are considered stupid enough.
AncientH:

There's a bit in Tir na nOg talking about "Sacred Essence," and it really is an in-character rant to promote the authors' personal view of what Essence-the-out-of-game mechanic is and how it works and why it's important. The stupid thing about this is that it proved popular enough that it was pretty much adopted for the rest of the edition, and onwards up until Augmentation or thereabouts.
We all carry a metaphysical blueprint, an aural template, conceived with our physical selves and borne until our deaths. This template represents not only who we are, but what we might have been had our bodies and spirits developed unhampered from birth. This aural template, our essence, also connects us to the mystical world. For most people, essence envelops and sustains them throughout life, but they derive no other power from it. For a magician, the aural template serves as the circuitry through which magical power flows. It connects the inner world with the outer in a direct, observable, tangible way.

In the past, metaphysicists have warned of the associative damage done to the aural template through the implantation of cybernetics or bioware. Though such warnings have validity, we believe the reasoning behind them to be inaccurate.

Rather than damaging the aural template, the associative damage done by cyber- and bioware and the resultant loss in magical potency results from the deviation between an individual's aural template and his body. In effect, the implantation of artificial enhancements creates a new body, or physical template, that differs from the aural template. The greater the deviation, the less efficient the transfer of mana from the aural to the physical becomes.
Young me liked this argument, liked arguing about it, but older me notes that this has basic flaws when it comes to, say, dentistry, or fixing a cleft palate, or separating conjoined siblings, or basically any major corrective surgery you can name. I strongly suspect it has its roots in Larry Niven's The Magic Goes Away, where one magician has a club foot he could totally fix with magic, but doing so would cost him "half his power." Of course, then the magic goes away and he has to hobble around for the rest of his fucking life because he didn't fix it when he fucking could have.
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire has five social ranks and regressive taxation. Higher ranked people pay lower taxes and lower ranked people pay higher taxes. Because fuck you. I don't see how this system is supposed to work, and I'm not sure if it is supposed to work. It's basically social commentary more than serious world building. Made for a good read in 1993, but it wasn't really all that great for playing games and telling new stories. Pretty much every time I've ever had a group of Shadowrunners be in Tir Tairngire, whether I've been a player or a GM, the team has ended up firebombing some residence of a dickish one percenter on Royal Hill and fled the country. That's basically all you can do.

Rank in Tir Tairngire is determined by an elaborate system of physical and mental tests, none of which actually matter because they are judged subjectively and the Hungarian judge gives out points that are nothing short of insulting. Rank in Tir na nOg is determined by past life regression therapy on small children. I am not making that up.

Tir na nOg also has five castes, but they only apply to the magically active Elves. All others get to fuck off or find a druidic order to join. Not the path druids, the other druids. Not the other druids either. You know fuck it, you have to find a group that will take you in. The five castes determine what magical powers you have access to and also what county you're supposed to live in and what times of day and times of year you get bonus power surges. The fifth and highest caste is the path of kings, and they are extra special because their bonus times are “all the time” which is exactly like not having any abilities at all, because they are all NPCs and their base skill numbers and initiate grades are totally arbitrary when encountered. The actual mechanics for these fuckers are totally unneeded. They could have just said “Followers of the path of the Righ don't actually have any specific special abilities, but they are generally pretty bad ass, so give them slightly higher stats than you normally would.”

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Literally partying all the time is much like never partying.
AncientH:

The Rite of Progression, which is sort of like the one-country Olympics or, I guess, the Hunger Games (ugh), is this thing where everybody in Tir Tairngire competes every couple years to see if they go up a level in social rank. Except because of RAISINS, this was put off, and put off, and continued to be put off until the country had a small, uninspired revolution and put an ork named Larry in charge.

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This isn't Larry, but it'll do.

Tir Tairngire technically has a group of people that don't want to play the fantasy nobility game called the irenis, but the TT government gives them a rank anyway for tax purposes.

Meanwhile, in Tir na nOg, we're informed you can go to jail for defacing a James Joyce novel.

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No, that's not a Ways & Paths diagram. Probably.
FrankT:

In Tir Tairngire, your same-sex kids get to have your rank until they reach the age of majority, and then they take the test and get given a new rank (or the same rank). Your daughters get your wife's rank (or if you're a woman, your sons get your husband's rank). I don't know what is supposed to happen to the sons of unwed mothers or children born to expatriates or whatever. Anyway, obviously the tests are a sham and the children of people who are allies of the high council get promotions and the children of the council's enemies get to be peasants. The lowest rank is still called “Gentry” but it sucks and you don't want to be one. People can also get given ranks arbitrarily by the high prince. Like how it's now “Sir” Ian McKellen, given a knighthood by the Queen herself for his services to the crown as Gandalf and Magneto. But it's not just an honorific, it comes with tangible tax benefits and you're allowed to go into corridors that are marked ultraviolet security clearance.

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There isn't actually any ultraviolet security clearance. That rumor was spread by communist mutant traitors.

Tir na nOg has their own special security clearances. Each of the five paths has their own initiatory group with like 12 different ranks in it. That is not an exaggeration. Seriously 12. There are little boxes full of stats on each one, and this is where we learn that there are less than three thousand path initiates. Yes, the dread and ultra powerful path mages of Tir na nOg could all fit into a highschool gym. Also, the mystic order of the Path of the Warrior, where all the children born into it are Adepts rather than Magicians, has about 415 Magicians in it. I don't know what that is supposed to mean. There might be some explanation hidden somewhere in this word salad, but I kinda don't think there is and I'm already too tipsy to make much sense of it. But seriously man, all this work for a group of 3000 mages? The United Kingdom has fifty thousand mages in it. I don't even care if these assholes are supposed to be hyper competent, they demographically don't mean shit.
AncientH:

Keep in mind that by the standards of the edition these numbers were ridiculously huge, because by the rules the more people that were in your initiatory group, the harder it fucking was to join. Most of the other really big organizations had maybe a dozen members, tops, and bigger organizations had this tiered structure where you moved from the Outer Circle to the Inner Circle or something.

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So even by the rules, the five Orders don't work, but because they have a paper strength in the hundreds each they look appropriately badass, because nobody had written up military initiatory groups for the UCAS and CAS or anything. You wouldn't get numbers close to these until Nigel Findley did Aztlan years later, and he referred specifically back to TNN on it as maybe giving the Azzies the idea.
FrankT:

The Sperethiel issue is similar to Irish Gaelic or Hebrew. It's archaic and no one would give a shit except that it's nationalistically important to throw it around. So you have to say some Sperethial at your Bar Mitzvah rite of passage, but normal every day business is conducted in English. Which is fine. These Elves aren't the first group to dig up a dead or made up language to rally their nationalism around. Even as we speak, the former Yugoslave republic of Macedonia is insisting that people speak “Macedonian” that is very slightly different from Serbian. But where Tir Tairngire goes off the reservation is where they apparently keep this shit exclusive. Only the nobles and people in the upper crust private schools get taught Sperethial. That is not how languages work. If you don't teach people your language, your language fucking dies.
AncientH:

The thing about Sperethiel is that a) no one knew where it came from, and b) it had no actual written equivalent, though they managed with Romanji just fine because seriously, this is just fucking gaelic with a couple twists. The Sperethiel section in Tir Tairngire is basically THE big block of text on the language, and the only thing comparable was the section copied almost word-for-word in Denizens of Barsaive in '94. There were some other words and phrases added over the years, and for quite some time I made a hobby of tracking them down and putting them together, because I am a sad little language nerd. I also did the same shit for Giak and Games Workshop Dwarf, I just didn't make websites of those. I guess you could say I found a niche and filled it.

Anyway, the big deal about Sperethiel is that even in its first appearance it was implicitly something that the Immortal Elves (or Great Elves, if you prefer) had brought forward into the Sixth World and started spreading around. It's part of what made elves special, and that's the way elves took it, saying that it was their own special language and everything while orks had to make do holding weddings in the traditional Klingon.

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Sperethiel was also one of the big bridges that connected Shadowrun to Earthdawn, and its absence was a sign that FASA's Crucible was not connected, despite the presence of orks, humans, and thorn elves.

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Later on the orks would get their own language from Shadowrun, Or'zet. Mainly because Dwarven was "Throalic" and basically fucking English, and Trolls never got a name for their language. It's better than giving Orks and Trolls an Ebonics equivalent, to be honest.

Anyway, technically Tir na nOg uses an Irish dialect of Sperethiel, but functionally it's the same.
FrankT:

Tir Tairngire makes their own entertainment. This is actually looking more likely now than it did when the book was made. The fact is that it's pretty hard for bullshit tiny countries to fill all the air time with shows. Czech TV uses a lot of old American TV shows dubbed into Czech. Slovakia uses a lot of old American TV shows... dubbed into Czech. How big of an entertainment sector do you have? When your whole country has the population of Houston, your “national” stations are going to look suspiciously like Houston area public access stations.

Now the advancement of computer technology has made content creation a lot easier. But seriously, you're not going to be able to put out the kind of quality of the major networks when you don't have the population base. You expect to have roughly one thirtieth the number of quality actors and directors of the United States by demographics alone, and it's actually much worse than that because anyone who shows talent is going to try to defect to a larger market where they can make a fuck tonne more money. Like how Silvia Saint made pornographic movies under the name “Silvia Saint” and didn't stay in Czech Republic making films under the name “Silvie Tomčalová.”

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The greatest country has the greatest Trid Channels!

For some reason, Tir Tairngire has its own sport. I don't know why you'd do that.

Tir na nOg's path of the Bard (who are totally different from Cornish Bards) comes with a rambling description of Irish musical instruments. Such as the Irish accordion and the spoons.

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Save me!
AncientH:

Hurling is actually a British Isles sport somewhere between rugby, lacrosse, and beating the living shit out of people with sticks.

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Go watch Blitz. Jason Statham has never been in an unentertaining movie.

It's presence here is supposed to be part of the Irish cultural contamination, and I might have made more of it as a point of contact between the two nations, where they alternate having the World Hurling Championship for the Elf Cup in Dublin and Portland on different years, and it's a big tourism magnet and shit. But that's about as much fun as you can have with the concept, and as Frank notes elsewhere, only cultural assimilation makes any sport acceptable, because they are silly and arcane things.

The end of the Tir Tairngire chapter is about how the once strong Irish connection between the two Tirs started to wane back in the 40s from pressure on high. You could see this a couple ways, but I like to think of it as Findley knowing that these other two assholes are writing a book at about the same time as him and politely not wanting to tie them down to anything he's written - so he uses the form of the name they used last time (Tir Nan Og) and the drifting apart bit. The end of the Tir na nOg chapter is a callout for gamemasters, because Sargent & Gasciogne hadn't quite gotten it through their heads that Shadowrun was separating in-character and out-of-character book sections at that point.
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We're very fortunate that one of the primary elf-artists for TNN has put up most of their Shadowrun work on deviantart. Thanks Mike!
Last edited by Ancient History on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by name_here »

There's some hemming and hawing about why elves tend to be richer - I personally liked it when Sargent & Gasciogne admitted in The London Sourcebook that royals just cribbed-death'd any orks or trolls that came out, which is part of the reason the UK peerage has more elves than other metatypes.
Hang on, I thought first-generation orks and trolls goblinized when they were like twelve. Seems like it would be fairly difficult for public figures to discreetly off them by that point.
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Post by Fuchs »

name_here wrote:
There's some hemming and hawing about why elves tend to be richer - I personally liked it when Sargent & Gasciogne admitted in The London Sourcebook that royals just cribbed-death'd any orks or trolls that came out, which is part of the reason the UK peerage has more elves than other metatypes.
Hang on, I thought first-generation orks and trolls goblinized when they were like twelve. Seems like it would be fairly difficult for public figures to discreetly off them by that point.
I think dwarf babies were often "stillborn". Orks and trolls goblinized in the 2020s, and cases among the Nobility probably hat fatal complications or accidents.
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Post by Stahlseele »

How do you prove that this fugly hunk of muscle that can't propperly talk or maybe even remember anymore is the cute little boy/girl that family used to have?
technically, due to UGE it isn't the same, because UGE(unexplained genetic expression) really means your genetic makeup changes and your race changes accordingly.
if you were to compare genetic information of the human and the goblinized child you would maybe find some similarities, but no match.
so they get the "he/she ran away suddenly" or was kidnapped or some other bullshit explanation and disappeared . .

fun fact: this means that the chance of having noble born prostitutes is quite high.
Welcome, to IronHell.
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TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Username17 »

Fuchs wrote: I think dwarf babies were often "stillborn". Orks and trolls goblinized in the 2020s, and cases among the Nobility probably hat fatal complications or accidents.
Fuchs is right. In 2011, there was a rash of upper class stillbirths and a reduction in the livebirth rate of Dwarves. The selective abortion of suspected Ork babies came later.
Stahlseele wrote:technically, due to UGE it isn't the same, because UGE(unexplained genetic expression) really means your genetic makeup changes and your race changes accordingly.
That is not what genetic expression means. UGE is called that because your genetic makeup is exactly the same, but for unknown reasons your expressed protein makeup is different. Genes code for proteins, but the rate at which they are expressed is determined by a number of factors that are not fully understood.

So a Troll expresses more insulin-like growth factor in their liver and more keratin in their skin. But all the proteins involved are still normal human proteins because their genetic code hasn't changed.

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Post by Fucks »

Stahlseele wrote: James Meier is an Idiot too.
He killed the most important Character in the Background off for . . reasons . .
Hm, whom you are talking about? Aina?
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Post by Stahlseele »

Fucks wrote:
Stahlseele wrote: James Meier is an Idiot too.
He killed the most important Character in the Background off for . . reasons . .
Hm, whom you are talking about? Aina?
Yep.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Fucks »

Most. Important. Character? Are you serious?

I agree with you on James Meiers being an idiot, though.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Aina Sluage.
Immoral Elf.
Very powerfull Mage in her own right, able to take a Horror for a Lover and stand up to a Horror all alone.
Aina Sluage the Inheritor.
She is/was President of what ammounts to Dunkelzahn Incorporated.
Well, the stuff he did not give away in his last Will at least.
One of the few People who knows of Thaila and can help her if needed be.
Probably THE ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET HARLEA QUINN ACTUALLY LISTENS TO!
So she has Influence over the probably strongest Immoral Elf out there too.
So, technically, she can - and probably does sometimes - wield the combined influence of most of what the big D had, what she herself has amassed and what Harlekin has available to him.
With that alone she could take on whole nations by herself theoretically.
Other Great Dragons are probably not too much of a Problem either.


So yes, going by that alone makes her one of the most influential characters in the world.
She is/was actually moving the MetaPlot (as bad as it might be) along.

They probably killed her off for exactly the reasons i detailed just now, because technically, she was too much power in one package.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Username17 »

None of the horror plotline mattered. They were never ever going to unleash horrors on the world and destroy the setting, and if they unleashed horrors that had the powers of Earthdawn horrors on the setting, Shadowrun police contractors would arrest them.

Barsaive had a population of 570,000, and its mages and warriors were comparatively jokes compared to Shadowrun era hard asses. Ukraine has a population of like 45 million and also has assault rifles and self propelled artillery now.

An actual horror invasion was never in the cards because it would have obviated the setting. But even within the context of the Immortal Elf plotlines, if the horror invasion had happened it would barely register as crime. It would have faced a metahumanity that was a couple orders of magnitude more numerous and also several orders of magnitude more powerful militarily on a per person basis.

All the super elf wank was stupid. The other shoe couldn't drop. The other shoe was too tiny to drop without disappointing everyone. It was all bark and no bite. None of the immortal elves actually were doing anything that made any fucking difference to anything. Johnny Spinrad mattered more than any of the immortal elves. Johnny Spinrad mattered more than all of the immortal elves.

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Post by Ancient History »

Economy?
Economy.

Mystery Theme Music!

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FrankT:

Both Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg have a section where both the major heading and the in-book browser are labeled “Economy.” They aren't in the same part of the books, but more clearly than anywhere else, these are equivalent parts of the book. Both books have 9 pages given over to their Economy sections. One might think there was even some developer oversight going on. The Economy sections are where the authors can really let their freak flag fly – the authors of each book have a chance to write in various policies and also judge them as having succeeded or failed. Like when Galileo wrote dialog for Pope Urban, policies the authors don't like can be presented as bad. Every part of these chapters is advocacy, how could it not be?

One of the key conceits is that major economic indicators in both countries are hidden or faked. This is a useful conceit, because it absolves the authors from having to write realistic econometric data for fictional countries 61 years in the future. But it's also a pretty reasonable conceit. I used to have a room mate from China. And once the discussion went to Chinese economic growth rates, and he said “Pfffft! No one believes those numbers!” Countries without a lot of transparency routinely cook the books, so countries really dedicated to obscurantism like the Tirs would very likely cook the books. In Tir na nOg, GDP is apparently a state secret.

But it's not just overt advocacy of “policies I am in favor of work well in the future while policies I am opposed to are costly failures in the future” although there's a considerable amount of that. There's also pertinent social commentary. When these books were being written, the United States was in the process of changing how it calculated unemployment that reduced the amount the long term unemployed counted in the unemployment numbers. The claim was that people who had been looking for a job for over a year weren't really looking and shouldn't be counted as unemployed. Tir Tairngire parodies this by having their official unemployment rate be zero by counting everyone who doesn't have a job as unemployable.
AncientH:

A serious question might be asked: does anyone care? Obviously you sort of care what type of currency is in use, and the general availability of goods, but that shit is all handled in other sections or is nicely summarized in the Cost of Living tables which Shadowrun has gone away from for some reason. The Tir Economy chapters are more along the lines of major industries and the state of the macroeconomy. So again, it's a bit of high level worldbuilding, and the main selling point for gamemasters is that it identifies important corporate players in the local scene.

There is also, of course, the shadow economy, which is more important but less is said.
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Seriously, are the Tirs net exporters or importers of elven prostitutes? This is important, godsdammit!
With strict border controls, limited megacorp presence, strongly discriminated-against minority populations and a history of revolution, it really wouldn't be surprising to see both Tirs have fairly strong black markets, tough ethnic syndicates, and a booming grey market in non-Tir manufactured goods like toilet paper, cars, multimedia, cyberdecks, etc. Hell, with such a limited skill pool you're probably looking at a bullish market for work visas, legal and illegal, just so local elf-corps can get enough skilled workers in to handle their operations. Getting people across the border should involve tunnels and catapults and shit. But we don't quite get any of that.
FrankT:


You can infer a lot about the author's views just by the statistics they choose to use. In Tir na nOg they tell us that newIreland's per capita nominal GDP is estimated to be 16 percent lower than Britain's, but that their per capita purchase power parity GDP is estimated to be 27 percent higher than Britain's. A difference the authors attribute to Tir na nOg's extensive state subsidies. This tells us that the authors really have a boner for government subsidies. It also tells us that the authors don't understand that government purchases are included in GDP by definition. Further, it shows that the authors didn't understand that 1993 Ireland's GDP was better in PPP than in nominal terms because no one wanted Irish Punts! Outside the Republic of Ireland, Irish Punts had no prestige and there was no demand for them – so the cost of Dollars in Punts was high relative to the cost of goods and services in Ireland in Punts. In 2014, with Ireland on the Euro, their nominal GDP is higher than their PPP GDP.

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It's harder to tell what Findley was thinking with his choices in Tir Tairngire, because the section is deeply sarcastic. We already talked about the “Zero Unemployment” to parody the proposed changes at the Bureau of Labor Statistics, but the book also talks about “Zero Inflation” to parody the Greenspan proposals to change the inflation calculations. We also get cooked numbers about the balance of trade. It's such broad parody that I actually can't tell whether the author thinks that low unemployment, low inflation, and a trade surplus represents a well running economy or whether he's just making fun of the changes that were being proposed at the time (and which historically did go into effect to one degree or another over the next couple of years – today's Unemployment Rate is calculated differently from what it was in 1993).
AncientH:

The long and the short is that both Tirs' local economies are implicitly and explicitly heavily supported by government spending, which makes up for the fact that a) they are small nations, population-wise, and b) a not-insubstantial portion of that population is fairly poor. Or at least, not hugely well-off. To balance this out, both governments also strangle their local corps in regulations and actually have a majority ownership percentage in most of them. So from a certain angle it looks like a parody of Socio-Capitalist government - gov't takes in lots of money from the corps, pays out lots of money to the proles. Except then you remember the unfair taxation bit, and...well, the long story short is I can't see how either of these nations doesn't run a massive deficit. Which should be fine for Tir na nOg, because they have their own currency (the humble Tir punt), although for some reason it's massively overvalued against the nuyen, but Tir Tairngire uses the nuyen...but then, this was long before the current EuroCrisis, so maybe the Corporate Corp Bank has a special account to keep the Tir from going bankrupt.

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I just want to post this here.
FrankT:

One place you can easily see the strange biases of the authors is in their insistence that getting rid of large firms raises standards of living. Both Tirs are supposed to have very little corporate presence and to have high per-capita GDP because of it. Tir na nOg posits that all international corporations have been given the boot (with corresponding increases in productivity... somehow), and Tir Tairngire posits a level of self employment that is higher than anything any western country boasts today. This is so brain breaking that I think I need to quote the OECD:
OECD wrote:In 2010, the share of self-employed workers in the total (men and women together) ranged from under 8% in the United States, and Norway to well over 30% in Greece, Mexico, and Turkey. In general, self-employment rates are highest in countries with low per capita income although Italy, with a self-employment rate of around 25.5%, is an exception.
Tir Tairngire's numbers are close to 50 percent.

We're expected to believe that Tir Tairngire does lots of biotech with firms of less than 10 employees. At first, second, or third glance that seems impossible – it takes more than 10 people just to make sure that everything you're working with is sterile. I assume that when you get a vat grown organ to order that you do have people collecting tissue, people calibrating equipment, people cleaning the facility and the equipment, people replicating and shaping the tissue, people arranging for sales to the end users, and people transporting the materials – but all of those are handled by independent self employed contractors. If you're a lab technician, you don't have “a workplace,” you just have a series of contracts that you go to over the week to do lab work like you were a plumber doing house calls. And that's everyone. No one has any job security because by modern standards no one has a job.

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In our world, firms exist and grow because internal transaction costs are smaller than external transaction costs.

Tir na nOg posits something way crazier than Elven cyber paladins on unicorns – it posits ubiquitous peer to peer project management with frictionless and fungible labor pools. Not only is the Stuffer Shack an
independent small business, but the guy stocking the shelves, the guy working the checkout counter and the guy mopping the floor are all independent self employed mercenaries working at this particular store on a transient basis. Tomorrow the register biscuit is going to be working at a petrol station and the day after that he's going to be working at a home and garden store.

This seems totally insane. It seems like no one would have any loyalty to or experience with any project they were called upon to join, and productivity would be extremely low all the time. Essentially everyone's “in training” for every day of their god damned lives. Even putting together a Shadowrun book with a cadre of freelancers and a small team of permanent employees was like herding lazy and opinionated cats – the idea of attempting to do that with technical or time sensitive projects seems laughable on the face of it. But, we are assured, this is the part of Tir Tairngire's economy that works so well it almost makes up for all the stifling oppression. Nigel Findley really liked being a freelance writer is what I'm saying.
AncientH:

If I were told to clean this up today, I'd make it like modern Italy where vast amounts of people claimed they were self-employed so that the employers could not have to pay the taxes on them, and everybody would be moonlighting at two jobs to pay the rent like Russia during the 90s.

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This is just my sideline. My other job is "Personal Bitch - Tuesdays" to Prince Oakforest."

Both Tirs have rumors of orichalcum mines. This is back before mining orichalcum was an in-universe thing, but the idea had already been breached in The London Sourcebook with another little Elf-dom (Snowdonia!) Orichalcum was always a bit of an odd duck because an alloy of gold, copper, silver, and mercury isn't really physically impossible, no matter what the textbooks say, but the whole idea of its high cost was supposed to represent the rarity of skill necessary to make it. If SR had 6 billion people after VITAS I-III (I forget how many it actually had), then you're looking at about 1% Awakened (60,000,000) and if only 1% of them are functional alchemists (600,000) and only 1% of them produce orichalcum full-time (6,000) and they make 10 batches a year (60,000) at an average of 1 unit each, that's still 60,000 g or 60kg of orichalcum per year, with a retail value of 5,280,000,000 nuyen - which sounds like a lot! It's definitely an industry in the billions of nuyen range. But in terms of the world economy in 2054, that's still pretty much a cottage industry. 60kg, spread around the globe. If you actually did mine even, say, half a kilogram of that shit and put it on the market, you'd be one of the major exporters of orichalcum on the planet and it would get noticed.

Anyway. My point being. The whole bitching about Year of the Comet and orichalcum appearing was stupid, but it was not really novel stupidity.
FrankT:

Tir na nOg runs on nepotism somehow. There are nine powerful Danaan families, and each one has some major industries that they secretly control. There's some overlap, and no one seem to control major employment sectors like grocery stores (although one of the families apparently has a lock on nOgian baked goods because they are Keebler Elves or something). The thing is, the economy of Tir na nOg is pretty fucking small – the whole country is the size of Minneapolis recall. So having nine separate economic powers behind the throne means that the pie is split up pretty damn thin. Even if the nine Danaan families controlled the entire economy (rather than just skimming off of several major industries), they'd each be in charge of less than twenty billion Nuyen. Which means that basically Renraku makes more in profit, in a month, than any of these shadowy cartels have as their net worth.

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When I image searched “unsustainable economic model” I got this otter. I assume this is the totemic otter of bad macroeconomic policy.

But it's not that these nine families actually get a ninth of the pie of the whole economy. They just have a lot of hands in the till at various levels, with family members being workers and managers at key levels of key industries (like poetry publication and baked goods*). This means that we're looking at just regular organized crime. And there are fucking nine of these assholes, splitting the take of the entire embezzlement losses of the country not only between the different families but also between all the different family members. Being head of the O'Neill family is like being president of the anime club. And I'm not just saying that because your chief source of graft is apparently supplying military hardware to a country that only has seven thousand military personnel and expects to defend itself with a volunteer militia of poets and druids.

*: Seriously: Poetry. That's a thing that one of the crime families somehow has a controlling interest in. Man!
AncientH:

An aside, there's no good adjective for inhabitants of either Tir. Frank's going with "nOgians" because he wants to call them something, I just haven't managed to raise enough fucks. My guess is they just call each other citizens or something, because that sounds like an appropriately Demolition Man-esque future kind of thing to say.

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Back on economy: Many of the major megacorps except Saeder-Krupp (because of Lofwyr) and Aztechnology (because of blood mages) have some presence in the Tirs through local branches which are partially owned by the local government. Probably this is so that they can smuggle corporate ninjas into the country or give uppity elf employees a "promotion" to the Elbonian Tir branch and then leave them there to die; at least that's how I'd handle the Japanacorps.
FrankT:

Both Tirs demand that you partially nationalize any corporation that you want to operate in their borders. Kind of like early nineties Norway, or if we were being less charitable: early nineties Mexico. It's not an unheard of conceit, and is pretty popular with both the socialist and authoritarian schools of running a country. Mostly it means that corporate taxes are calculated weirdly (you have to give up some of your stock, and then you owe a percentage of the profits to the state), but it also means that at least theoretically the state is entitled to see what your corporation is doing because they are a fucking share holder. The authors here seem to think it implies that the companies will behave as if they are stake holders in the country and won't just put all their profits in a santa sack and send them overseas. History does not support this conclusion. I can point to situations where state stock ownership helped a nation state get to the bottom of corporate malfeasance cases or claw back fraudulently acquired wealth or something – but last I checked corporations operating in Mexico still behave like royal fucksticks to the people of Mexico.
AncientH:

The biggest national (A-level) corp in either Tir is Telestrian Industries, which is somehow run by James Telestrian III. I always thought that presumably James Telestrian I got hit in the head by a bullet when storming the beaches at Normandy, spent some time in a rehabilitation hospital, and formed an obsessive attachment to Tolkien and changed his name to something suitably fantastic, but it turns out Telestrian is a real name in parts of the world. Will wonders never cease.

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Dude had a rough time in adolescence.
FrankT:

We get writeups on various corporations. Just a few for each country, and most of the ink is spent on drooling over their security measures. That's... understandable. The game is called “Shadowrun” and it's about Shadowrunners performing Shadowruns. So rants about how nasty the security is makes some sense. That's the opposition during your run. The corporation is your target, and the security measures are the things you have to overcome. The problems are two: the first being that it's still really pretty stupid that that we're supposed to be worried about cutting edge security technology coming out of an isolated country the size of Slovakia (or even worse: Minneapolis). But the even bigger problem is that Shadowruns have to have a target. There has to be a thing that we'd want to steal to make bypassing the security worth anything. Tir na nOg doesn't really offer anything. Tir Tairngire wrestles with that question a little bit by talking about various high tech stuff that may be being researched, but you can tell their heart isn't in it – Nigel Findley openly lampshades the whole concept.
Tir Tairngire Comments wrote:Why is it that any corp with an enclosed habitat, arcology or not, is always supposedly perfecting the first AI?
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Why indeed?

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Oh right. That.
AncientH:

I think it's actually a show of restraint that the authors didn't make a local elf-corp powerful enough to meddle with the AAAs, but a lot of the local corps are of course...undeveloped. For example, the local MCT equivalent (bizarrely called Matsushima Computer Technologies) is supposed to basically be Best Buy to MCT Prime's Dell.

One thing you notice in both write-ups is a focus on, shall we say, low-impact industries. Primary exports are computer programs, chemical and biological patents/formulas, etc. You have to look very hard indeed to see what the Tirs do build locally; if you were writing it today you'd think of some sort of hipster revolution centered on Portland, where everybody rides bicycles or sustainable biofeul vehicles which are built somewhere else so that the nasty runoff doesn't impact their beautiful trees. Hell, I don't think the Tirs are even self-sufficient for food, and they still claim trade balances that are whack.
FrankT:

Tir na nOg's economy section has a subsection on crime. Tir na nOg has a lot of organized criminal groups that are totally different from the Danaan families in that they divert productive resources to their own pockets, openly support terrorists, use bribery and intimidation to undermine corporate and government contracting, don't have the support of the government. So, basically in addition to having nine separate small scale Elvish mafias that all suck each others' dicks and have regular audiences with the Queen, there are four non-Elvish mafias that the government will execute you if they discover you're a member. Also, there are like four more that are discussed elsewhere in the book, but not in this chapter.

Also there are street gangs. But how that's different from being the seventeenth largest organized criminal group in a country with the population of Minneapolis I could not tell you. Things are already so small scale that it seems to me that there isn't much distance between the second largest pro-protestant criminal syndicate in Belfast and any random Belfast street gang you happened to name.

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The totemic otter of unsustainable economic models is yelling for your attention.
AncientH:

Somewhere else in Tir Tairngire they talk a bit about the Ancients, an all-elf go-gang with ties up to Seattle and down to California, who presumably do a lot of old-time smuggling. However, all the black economy stuff is sort of skimmed over, which is sad. Obviously someone has to run the elf whores in the Tirs, and bring in the pixie dust, but whom?

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Remember when I said that the elf-group that formed Tir Tairngire broke off from the Sinsearach elf-tribe? Well the group that then got thrown out of the Tir for insufficient elfiness or something went to Seattle and formed Tarislar.
Nath
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Post by Nath »

Ancient History wrote:NMath! Haven't seen you in a dog's age. Glad to have you keep me honest.
Business as usual, lurking around. But if you get some obscure fact wrong from a Shadowrun book, I will be there.

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On a personal note, Tir Tairngire holds a particular place. It's the book that really got me hooked on Shadowrun after I borrowed the copy at my high school RG club. The idea of a modern/futurist RPG setting with loads of secrets and mystery appealed to me. And once I had read other SR books, I quickly developed a burning hate for all things elven when I realized that they were like the only people with worthy secrets and powers (which happened to be the precise thing I already hated about The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion).
FrankTrollman wrote:Either of the Elvish nations have a somewhat plausible dystopian government, but it's still hard to see how it would matter to Shadowrunners because the rest of the world is operating under the assumption that no matter who you vote for the megacorporations will or already have them in their pocket. A lot of Shadowrun books go into presidential elections being fixed or obviated or whatever, and it's just so much jaw flapping. We're already at the stage where you can't be a viable candidate for high office without millions of dollars from corporate sponsors, so I genuinely don't see what the point of having elections be fraudulent (TNN) or nonexistent (TT) even is. Cyberpunk posits that your vote doesn't matter because the rich and powerful own all the viable candidates, and any variation on that is just local color worth no more than a paragraph or two. That you live in an oligarchy is simply understood by the genre you are in, how the oligarchs are nominally selected is of little interest.
I don't know what the political stage looked life in the US in the early 1990ies (I was, like, twelve years old at the time, I wasn't even interested in my own coutry political scene...). Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure the role of political lobbies was a well-known fact of life at the time.
Shadowrun original authors were also incredibly naive on some issues. Sure, the sourcebooks show that they loved to read books, but political science probably wasn't on the list. I mean, they felt thay had to coin the word "policlub" for political organizations that first appeared in Europe. Sure. We had them for a while over here, and we usually call them "small political parties".

Politics rarely got in the spotlight in Shadowrun. Moreover, that assumption you mention even more rarely got spelled out. Seattle governor Schultz connection to the United Corporation Council only got a passing mention in Seattle sourcebook (note that, at the time, the Corporate Court or the Manhattan Consortium had yet to be imagined and introduced, so the UCC, the "Tampa Bay Commerce Commission", "London Business Club" and "Moscow Corporate Collective" were supposed to be the ultimate tool of corporate interference). The same book had much more details on district mayors connection to the Mafia or Yakuza. People sometimes remember that Dunkelzahn has Ares Macrotechnology backing. On the other hand, Kenneth Brackhaven is still primarily the archconservative and Humanis candidate, rather than the head of Brackhaven Industries. Dammit, the "Colbert Group" had its CEO Alan Adams elected president of the UCAS, and the corporation was never mentionned again (president Adams didn't got much more anyway).

As far as I remember, only Tsimshian, Athabaskan and Aztlan had some actual developments on the political-corporate connection. Otherwise, the Tir don't differ much from any other countries. Most authors fell to the "special snowflake" syndrome. So a large number of SR countries were made "different" from the others by not having the corporations pulling the strings. As the quote goes, saying everyone is special is another way of saying that no one is. The actual process that led to it is slightly more subtle. By limiting themselves to a streamlined list of 8-10 AAA prime megacorporations and stopping to introduce new great dragons and immortals, the authors got in a corner: if the corporations are always the same ones, the local government appear as the only different power player that can come into play to make the place different.
FrankTrollman wrote:None of the horror plotline mattered. They were never ever going to unleash horrors on the world and destroy the setting, and if they unleashed horrors that had the powers of Earthdawn horrors on the setting, Shadowrun police contractors would arrest them.

Barsaive had a population of 570,000, and its mages and warriors were comparatively jokes compared to Shadowrun era hard asses. Ukraine has a population of like 45 million and also has assault rifles and self propelled artillery now.

An actual horror invasion was never in the cards because it would have obviated the setting. But even within the context of the Immortal Elf plotlines, if the horror invasion had happened it would barely register as crime. It would have faced a metahumanity that was a couple orders of magnitude more numerous and also several orders of magnitude more powerful militarily on a per person basis.
There was a theory (invalidated since) I liked claiming most if not all of the Horrors of the Fourth Age only were materialized toxic spirits of man, inclding high force or free spirits. Considering the population and the technology available at the time, humanity was simply not able to pollute the water, land and air enough to create other type of toxic spirits back then, while slavery, torture and war already allowed toxic spirits of man.
FrankTrollman wrote:[Tir Tairngire] an isolated country the size of Slovakia (or even worse: Minneapolis)
Finland is another possible comparison: same population, closer regarding size (and thus border control issue) and GDP compared to other countries (based on Shadows of North America figures)
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele »

What's wrong with that Theory about toxic man spirits Nath?
Welcome, to IronHell.
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Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Nath
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Post by Nath »

Well, it hasn't been clearly debunked (mostly because I've rarely seen it discussed since the first time I read it on Usenet). It is mostly supported by a quote in Target: Awakened Lands. But way before that theory was even formulated, Paranormal Animals of Europe already had introduced wraiths, heavily hinted as their evil extraplanar nature while mentioning a large concentration around Tenochtitlan. Street Magic reintroduced wraiths as a subtype of Shadow spirits, who as far as I can tell, were more clearly intended to fit the bill.
Last edited by Nath on Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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