Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Avoraciopoctules]

Put in another way - if a couple of burly guy snatched you from your home and and brought you to the white house to have lunch with Barack Obama, where he will discuss appointing you as The King of Awesome in the US... you were still kidnapped. Moreover so if you later found out that had you misbehaved during lunch, a sniper would have shout non lethal plastic rounds at your head. Very painful, though of course you would have still lived through it. Oh, and if you disappointed Obama and got shot multiple times? he would still smile by the end of the conversation and say, "mah, you are the best I have anyway. You are still hired".

[Koumei]

That's pretty disappointing, even for Paizo fare.

[Slade]

James Jacobs:

One of the things I wonder about is how Iomedae transports the PCs to her realm if there is all the deity non-interference rules going about that doesn't allow them to directly influence the world.

One of the reasons we haven't actually spelled out in print what those "deity non-interference rules" are is so that we don't have to explain that; we can simply make the gods do the things we want them to do or NOT do in order to tell the story that lets the player characters be the heroes.

"We didn't say what we meant so we can go around the words we wrote."

[Scrivener]

James Jacobs:

One of the things I wonder about is how Iomedae transports the PCs to her realm if there is all the deity non-interference rules going about that doesn't allow them to directly influence the world.

One of the reasons we haven't actually spelled out in print what those "deity non-interference rules" are is so that we don't have to explain that; we can simply make the gods do the things we want them to do or NOT do in order to tell the story that lets the player characters be the heroes.

"We didn't say what we meant so we can go around the words we wrote."

There is nothing wrong with that stance.

If the PCs know the exact scenarios that dieties can intercede then PCs will exploit that and PCs will not be excited or surprised when it happens.

If GMs know the exact scenarios that dieties can and cannot intercede then they lose freedom in using dieties. Players can rightfully protest when dieific intervention is called for and not granted, and players can be irked if dieific intervention happens when it shouldn't.

Not every detail needs to be outlined, you don't need to know what is written in the King in Yellow, you don't need to know why Bowser kidnapped the princess, and you don't need to know what rights ultraviolet clearance grants you.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If the PCs know the exact scenarios that dieties can intercede then PCs will exploit that and PCs will not be excited or surprised when it happens.

1.) Yeah, AND?

2.) Oh, God, if only there was a way to maintain surprise in a tabletop RPG while still having all possible outputs known. Guess such a thing remains a fever dream of the negative nabobs of TGD.

[sake]

I'll just elaborate that the first question is a piece of trivia, where the god the PCs are helping out is checking if they memorized her biography and can spout factoids about how cool she is on demand.

I've lost count of how often I've seen that in crpg's NWN, WoW, Elder Scrolls, Divinity 2... it was only a matter of time before some asshole put in a PnP adventure.

[sake]

It's necessary because I've seen all sorts of play styles... and it's not that uncommon (for good or for ill) for players (and thus their player characters) to exhibit a level of arrogance and bluster and bravado and self-importance that the idea of playing a character as being subservient to any other NPC is unthinkable.

This is an encounter where the players SHOULD role-play their characters as subservient—they're in the presence of a (supposedly) allied deity, after all. And in most cases, where you've got players who have bought in to the AP's themes by this point... it won't be a problem.

"I wrote it this way because some people might try to role play their super high level near-demigod characters as not being boot licking sycophants towards my super special npc goddess character. And that's just WRONG! They need to role play how I say they should role play the adventure"

[Morat]

Yeah, a couple of the posters pointed out that if good gods can just grab people (including followers of other gods!) and torture them (possibly to death) with no save, so can evil gods. GG world. Setting aside that torturing people is kind of a disqualifier from "good", of course.

That's the kind of move that would cause me to go, "Dude, what the fuck?" at the DM.

I'm trying to imagine a good-aligned PC getting away with behaving like that.

[hogarth]

Also... we've ramped back or retconned or adjusted PLENTY of things before. Just because it gets into print doesn't mean it's carved in stone. Going forward, I suspect we'll NOT be trying to make Iomedae into a heartless sound torturer... that was NEVER the point or intent or goal of this adventure, as a matter of fact, so don't expect us to support that interpretation of her personality going forward.

We don't get everything right on the first try. We try to get as much of it as right as possible, but 100% perfection is not attainable.

If I had a nickel for every time James Jacobs back-pedalled and said something like "oops, we accidentally wrote the wrong book", I could retire by now.

[Antariuk]

It's getting better...

One of the reasons we haven't actually spelled out in print what those "deity non-interference rules" are is so that we don't have to explain that; we can simply make the gods do the things we want them to do or NOT do in order to tell the story that lets the player characters be the heroes.

I think that's understandable, and I don't totally fault that line of thinking on the surface, but in a shared universe with many authors I also think not having any type of rules the deities decide to operate under codified being a slippery road to go down. Sooner or later there is going to be things that blatantly contradict each other, and then people are left with the "the gods work in mysterious ways" reasoning for every plot hole that comes up involving the gods which is pretty unsatisfying (and to blunt kind of a cop out). Or maybe even worse a tangled web of things comes about to explain and justify some things and not others and it makes it worse.

Plus each time something like this happens it creates one data point in the canon that has to be considered each time a future product happens or even in the games we play. Does this mean somebody like Asmodeus could transport people that might not even worship him to his presence and hurt them when he feels like it or finds them unworthy?

Welcome to the complexities of my job.

If that is his actual answer to a legitimate but totally solvable problem (not that I give a rat's ass about Golarion, but I can sympathize), I don'T know what to say really.

[GâtFromKI]

So Iomedae captures the PCs and tortures them until they show some respect and they say the things she wants them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?



----
Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

[RadiantPhoenix]

So Iomedae capture the PCs and torture them until they show some respect and they says the things they want them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?

Palette.

Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

So, BoED.

[Longes]

So Iomedae capture the PCs and torture them until they show some respect and they says the things they want them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?

Palette.

Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

So, BoED.

And apparently people are fine with it, what with all "Good is not nice" statements.

[Antariuk]

So Iomedae capture the PCs and torture them until they show some respect and they says the things they want them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?

Palette.

Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

So, BoED.

And apparently people are fine with it, what with all "Good is not nice" statements.

I'd be surprised if those statements are anything else but bootlicking JJ's feelings.

[GâtFromKI]

Anyway, the answers of James Jacob are quite representative of the main problem in pathfinder: Pathfinder's writers and MCs hate players. They need some players to be able to tell their story, but they despise them.

Therefore, anything the player do is suspect: if he takes an useful feat, it's probably to annoy the MC, if they don't roleplay like the MC wants them to roleplay, it's probably to annoy the MC, and Pcs surely won't roleplay ever if they isn't an incentive or a punishment. Because you know, they come for the beer, not for the roleplay.


So here we are, a shitty encounter with Iomeadae who acts like Asmodeus, because JJ think PC will destroy his great story if she acts like a LG deity. Except it's not a great story: it's a shitty story where a LG god acts like a LE god. In other words, JJ already destroyed his story all by himself by trying to protect it against the PCs.

[Longes]

Anyway, the answers of James Jacob are quite representative of the main problem in pathfinder: Pathfinder's writers and MCs hate players. They need some players to be able to tell their story, but they despise them.

Therefore, anything the player do is suspect: if he takes an useful feat, it's probably to annoy the MC, if they don't roleplay like the MC wants them to roleplay, it's probably to annoy the MC, and Pcs surely won't roleplay ever if they isn't an incentive or a punishment. Because you know, they come for the beer, not for the roleplay.


So here we are, a shitty encounter with Iomeadae who acts like Asmodeus, because JJ think PC will destroy his great story if she acts like a LG deity. Except it's not a great story: it's a shitty story where a LG god acts like a LE god. In other words, JJ already destroyed his story all by himself by trying to protect it against the PCs.

The big problem isn't even her attitude - it's the fact that a god can just wish and teleport someone to them. What if Zon-Kuthon decided one day, that he wants to chat with the paladins of Iomedae?

[Antariuk]

Well, that circles back to those implied-but-not-explicitly-stated "deity non-interference rules"... Zon-Kuthon won't do it because reasons until some author at Paizo feels like it would make a cool story, and then he will.

As much as it saddens me, I think GâtFromKI was right. It really feels like players are not trusted to make any coherent decision about the game or the current advanture at all, much less when high and mighty people such as Iomedae are involved. WTF.

[Longes]

Well, that circles back to those implied-but-not-explicitly-stated "deity non-interference rules"... Zon-Kuthon won't do it because reasons until some author at Paizo feels like it would make a cool story, and then he will.

The problem here, is that deity non-interference agreements are very much like nuclear standoff. It's all fine and well when everyone follows them, but then Iomedae interferes and evil gods either throw down and murderize everyone, or suck it up and lose followers.

[Username17]

Deity non-interference pacts were always intentionally vague. I mean, whatever the fucking rules are, they don't forbid granting Clerics 9th level spells, which is rather more intervention than just slapping someone for twenty dice of damage.

The issue here is that a major lawful good goddess is being portrayed as a monstrous and petty fuckwit. But that's an issue of big penis NPCs in general, rather than the deity rules in particular. That sort of behavior wouldn't have been better from a questgiver with any other nominal alignment.

-Username17

[fectin]

It sounds like a great start to an adventure to me. Immediately after their meeting, I would expect the PCs to start actively working against Iomedae's interests. I mean, the rest of the book is probably a waste, but that's a pretty compelling reason to go wreck up a setting.

[MisterDee]

Heck. The Mythos deities are statted in Pathfinder. This isn't Iomedae, it's Nyarlathotep fucking with the players and the world.

[Fuchs]

The devs explicitely want the PCs to be humble(d). I assume they think that high level PCs being proud and not subservient is wrong.

[Maxus]

Deity non-interference rules? I suppose they might look like

-Thou shalt act through mortals. Clerics can have 9th-level spells, but it's up to them what they decide to do with it. If thou're good at picking thy person, they'll advance thine agenda.

-Thou shalt not physically enter the mortal world, unless summoned there by mortals.

-Thou shalt only directly affect the people who worship thee or are aligned with your cause or beliefs in some direct way. Thou might slay all of Asmodeus' worshipers, but then Hextor may slay thine, and then where art thou?

-Thou might causeth a miracle, unpaid by a 9th-level slot, any time thou wish, but thine enemies will know it and be allowed a miracle. One for one.

[Longes]

Deity non-interference rules? I suppose they might look like

-Thou shalt act through mortals. Clerics can have 9th-level spells, but it's up to them what they decide to do with it. If thou're good at picking thy person, they'll advance thine agenda.

-Thou shalt not physically enter the mortal world, unless summoned there by mortals.

-Thou shalt only directly affect the people who worship thee or are aligned with your cause or beliefs in some direct way. Thou might slay all of Asmodeus' worshipers, but then Hextor may slay thine, and then where art thou?

-Thou might causeth a miracle, unpaid by a 9th-level slot, any time thou wish, but thine enemies will know it and be allowed a miracle. One for one.

This. 9th level spells are fine, because both good and evil clerics give them.

In fact, Hastur can cast a wish at-will, if it fulfills the request of his follower and furthers Hastur's agenda.

[Seerow]

Never been to Gaming Den

You're missing out! Some of the clearest thinking on 3.5 I've ever seen, hidden among a pack of people obsessed with the word "cock," and who threaten to dismember each other's mothers as a casual greeting.

From the Pathfinder forums. Thought it was funny enough to crosspost.