Practical Ways to Modify the Modern RPG

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Zak S
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Post by Zak S »

PhoneLobster wrote:
Zak S wrote:And, again, serious question
You quoted the answer you ignoramus. Real world evidence does not actually support your claim that you are a fucking perfect infallible godlike genius.
We already did this: here's where the strawman of you saying I claimed to be a "infallible godlike genius" comes from, plus me refuting it. http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54 ... &start=625 plus, the person I'm talking to realizing finally that's it's a bunch of bullshit and actually apologizing (apologizing! In a Gaming Den thread!) for believing the strawman and then the thread ends.

So that's a complete and total refutation of that. Let's move on to the topic at hand which you sought to derail by lying about me: What would you accept as evidence that the person you are talking to had a game experience that isn't the same as yours? Because that's all that's happening here--someone's proposing that something works at their table and you're simply saying they're too dumb to be able to accurately observe that.
Last edited by Zak S on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

The wonderful thing about the Gaming Den is that, unlike with comics, if you ever walk into an ongoing storylinegrudge match that you missed the initial 40-page epic of, it will be succinctly recapped for you the next time it comes around.

PL, stop being an asshat. Or at least stop being a vocal one who obstructs useful conversation. Your assertion that Zak's players are imaginary is actually vastly less supported than his assertion that his players totally exist and enjoy his games. Hell, he might not be the most orthodox DM, but given the stories he's told on his site, I'd totally play with him (assuming he's up front about occasionally ignoring/changing the printed rules of the game, which so far I can tell, he is).
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

Often times people will claim they are having fun when they play a game GMed by a friend.

Even if they're not.

Even if they're playing in a game that reportedly causes brain damage like Vampire: the Masquerade.
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Post by Prak »

Often times people will have fun in a game, even when the actual game makes their head hurt, or irritates them, because they are with friends, and the human mind remembers grievances better than positive things, but overall they enjoy it.

I played Glorantha Runequest for a long time despite the fact that the setting makes my head hurt, and the system is bad enough to require a fair amount of system mastery to be effective, because I would rather be playing a game with a dumb setting in a group of friends than sitting at home alone doing fuck all.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by rampaging-poet »

Zak S: while PhoneLobster is being his typical aggressive and hyperbolic self, the point here is that the anecdotal evidence you and Cyberzombie have provided isn't enough to suggest your playstyles can be generalized to an average group, i.e. the target audience for almost anyone making their own RPG. Cyberzombie hasn't addressed PhoneLobster's concerns about adding two extra declaration phases and rerolling initiative every round other than to say something to the effect of "works for me dude." I'm not even going to touch your argument because I've read through the past two threads and nothing I could say would make a difference.

There is strong evidence to suggest your group actually exists. Obviously your play style works well enough for you because you're still playing. That doesn't mean that "it works for my group" is a particularly strong argument that someone making a game from scratch should follow in your footsteps. On its own it's not even an argument that something else wouldn't work better for your group - it needs additional information about your group or how the costs of alternative solutions would be greater in your particular circumstances. I don't intend to argue with you in particular about how you run your game, but in the case of PhoneLobster's current argument with Cyberzombie, Cyberzombie's argument was both similar in form to arguments you had previously advanced and completely incapable of addressing the flaws in his system PhoneLobster had pointed out.
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Zak S
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Post by Zak S »

rampaging-poet wrote:Zak S: while PhoneLobster is being his typical aggressive and hyperbolic self,
...and he should stop, since it makes the conversation worse.
the point here is that the anecdotal evidence you and Cyberzombie have provided isn't enough to suggest your playstyles can be generalized to an average group, i.e. the target audience for almost anyone making their own RPG.
I would (and have previously) submitted that aiming for an imagined average group is only one of many good and defensible ways to design a game (see "Left Handed Scissors"). And also I'd suggest, creatively, it is often more trouble than it's worth.
There is strong evidence to suggest your group actually exists. Obviously your play style works well enough for you because you're still playing. That doesn't mean that "it works for my group" is a particularly strong argument that someone making a game from scratch should follow in your footsteps.
If the phrase "my footsteps" is interpreted as: "Do what I do now" then you are right.
If the phrase "my footsteps" is interpreted as: "Pay a lot of attention to your own game group and devise rules and ways of dealing with them because you're likely not the only people who have the same profile" then you are wrong. Skepticism about published products, and a willingness to think hard about local circumstances are important tools to both good GMing and designing anything interesting and useful. Most of the best games were made so the people designing them could play with their own group and then made this locally useful tool available to whoever in the wider audience wanted a bite.

As for Sakuya Izayoi, who implied my group is just pretending for 5 years to enjoy the game they're in and play it out of loyalty and talk to each other publicly every week about how excited they are to play or how bummed they are about missing out as part of some elaborate and time-consuming hoax, again: the internet affords you a great number of tools to investigate this claim. Anything less would be falling into a burden of proof fallacy. If you would make a claim--people are lying and putting on an extraodinarily elaborate deception: prove it.
Last edited by Zak S on Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Mistborn »

Zak how bout you just skip to the part where you slink back into the shadows to nurse your hurt feelings, we've had this dog and pony show before. Your games are magic teaparties they have no bearing on discussions of RPG design, let's not derail the thread over it.

As for the topic, while me and Phonelobster may not see eye to eye all the time I'd say he has this one in the bag. Adding more steps to the action resolution process makes that process makes that process take longer, this shouldn't be rocket surgery.
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Post by Zak S »

Lord Mistborn wrote:Zak how bout you just skip to the part where you slink back into the shadows to nurse your hurt feelings, we've had this dog and pony show before.
Now you're doing the thing where instead of answering the question you just type random insults. I understand you have a desire to change the conversation to a plane where you believe you can compete, but I wonder if it gnaws at you that you consistently: A) Say something and then B) Find out it doesn't match observed phenomena in the actual universe. Like: does that bother you? Or does the raw excitement of making up things to type in an RPG forum that are wholly fictional outweigh simple human curiosity and prejudice for the true over the untrue?
Last edited by Zak S on Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheFlatline »

TheNotoriousAMP wrote:Simultaneous does not mean individualist. Space Alert is an example of this, simultaneous action, but team based success. Person a needs to shoot the laser. That means person b needs to charge the local reactor, which means person c needs to keep the fuel coming, which means person d needs to keep the boarding party of lardbots out of the generator room which means person e needs to rush to the bridge and keep the screensaver from going off. The entire team is really doing one thing, but everyone else is making sure stuff can't interfere.
Okay you've brought up Space Alert more than once and I have to stop here.

Space Alert is a *terrible* example of how "simultaneous declaration" works because the entire point of Space Alert is that simultaneous declaration is a terribly difficult system, and making it real time is an even worse system.

Space Alert ends more often than not with everyone dying.

You know where that would work? Paranoia. Where you expect your character to die a terrible and amusing death due to miscommunication.

You know where it wouldn't work? Any game where I'd have any meaningful time invested in my character.

And removing the time constraint from Space Alert and just having "simultaneous declaration" *with* discussion means basically you're doing AD&D's old "Declare your action then roll for initiative". That's why we had weapon and casting speed and all that funky shit. And that was terrible and one of the most frequently houseruled rules.

I could *deal* with "declare and roll for init" more than I could where everyone declared in a vacuum. I probably would get sick of it and houserule it, but it might actually like last 1-2 sessions before I flipped the table over in frustration.
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Post by Chamomile »

TheFlatline wrote:
Space Alert is a *terrible* example of how "simultaneous declaration" works because the entire point of Space Alert is that simultaneous declaration is a terribly difficult system, and making it real time is an even worse system.

Space Alert ends more often than not with everyone dying.

You know where that would work? Paranoia. Where you expect your character to die a terrible and amusing death due to miscommunication.
Say, that actually sounds kinda fun. Simultaneous declaration would be fun in a game like Paranoia.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Exactly. I actually love the *fuck* out of Space Alert. Because it's a giant clusterfuck. I mean the name of your ship is the SS Sitting Duck.

And yeah, Paranoia would be kind of fun like that because sometimes it's your mission to vaporize someone else in the game for being a commie mutant traitor and you're generally inept anyway.
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Post by Mistborn »

Zak S wrote:Now you're doing the thing where instead of answering the question you just type random insults.
What question am I not answering?
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Post by Zak S »

Lord Mistborn wrote:
Zak S wrote:Now you're doing the thing where instead of answering the question you just type random insults.
What question am I not answering?
Sooo many obvious questions:

1. Where are you on whether anyone here is lying or deceived as to their own group's reaction to the rules they've got? If you think they are: where is your evidence?

2. On the issue of the utility of designing for an observed group and then tossing it out in case someone else wants it vs. assessing a broad middle and designing for them?

3. If you would design for the presumed broad middle, is the motive only economic? Why bother then considering there isn't much money to be made anyway?

4. Given the clear and cited refutation of everything lobster just said, how is it that you stand behind it? Why not simply go "Lobster, you're nuts, stop typing things like that, it slows the process of anyone learning anything down enormously."

5. And, re: the minor side issue of my own games and their alleged irrelevance or special teaparty status here: Cite evidence or stop making claims.
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Post by Cyberzombie »

rampaging-poet wrote:Zak S: while PhoneLobster is being his typical aggressive and hyperbolic self, the point here is that the anecdotal evidence you and Cyberzombie have provided isn't enough to suggest your playstyles can be generalized to an average group,
That's true. And it's also true that I've never actually claimed I was suggesting this to the average group. As I've said before, the main area simultaneous declaration can help you is if your group contains 2+ slow players. That's when you'd want to consider using it. I've never claimed this was an average group or a system you'd want to use in every group you've ever gamed with. Simultaneous declaration is a possible fix to a specific problem. It isn't the be-all, end-all.

All I have been saying is that simultaneous declaration isn't always a bad system for RPGs, and can be faster than the current system in certain groups. I can say this with 100% certainty because I've actually witnessed it personally. But that doesn't mean it's always a good system either.

But as I've repeatedly been saying, I'm not trying to sell this system to every gaming group out there. I realize a lot of people in the den are used to many the posters claiming to be God's gift to RPG design who know the perfect rules solution for every RPG group. I get that, because there are a collection of posters here whose typical operating procedure seems to be spouting off absolute statements with crazy hyperboles, then calling anyone who disagrees with them an idiot and other colorful names, because they think it'll strengthen their position as know-it-alls. There are people here who love to believe they're spouting the word of God.

That's just not me.

See the thing is, I'm not from the One True Way crowd. I don't pretend that what I'm saying is perfect for every group. I'm not that arrogant to believe I have all the answers. All I can do is present things that I've done in the past and also hear what other people have done so I can work towards a better game for my group. I don't believe in a perfect RPG system at all. What's great for one group may be garbage in another. The perfect system for your group is going to look vastly different from the perfect system for any other group. No one holy grail exists.
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Post by rampaging-poet »

Zak S wrote: If the phrase "my footsteps" is interpreted as: "Do what I do now" then you are right.
If the phrase "my footsteps" is interpreted as: "Pay a lot of attention to your own game group and devise rules and ways of dealing with them because you're likely not the only people who have the same profile" then you are wrong. Skepticism about published products, and a willingness to think hard about local circumstances are important tools to both good GMing and designing anything interesting and useful. Most of the best games were made so the people designing them could play with their own group and then made this locally useful tool available to whoever in the wider audience wanted a bite.
I meant the first interpretation, and I was specifically thinking of your earlier statements about never looking up rules in play and your rulings being set in stone. Several other posters on this board have presented counterarguments that I feel make a good case that isn't generalizable. Personaly, I handle rules arguments with on-the-spot rulings as well, but the ruling doesn't automatically become universal law. Rules disputes and unknown rules are discussed at the end of the session, and the ruling only becomes a new house rule if nothing better could be found or agreed upon before the start of the next session. The one time a given spot ruling has to be made might be inconsistent, but this method has the advantage of keeping the game moving without having to be perfect on the first try.

That said, I mostly agree with your thoughts regarding the second interpretation. Published rules are not automatically better for any given gaming group, and one's personal gaming group can provide valuable information about how a system can work. However, when one takes that step of making their game available to others, it's equally important to question why the rules that work with one's group work so well, and whether it would work as well for anyone else.

To continue with the simultaneous declaration example in this thread, I can believe that there are groups that would genuinely work faster with a secret declare-ahead system. However, it would only be faster if each player usually takes longer to figure out what to do than it takes for their turn to come around again (including not paying attention when it isn't their turn) and the players do not want or need to spend appreciably more time considering hypothetical situations to determine their actions. If those conditions are not met, the extra overhead in recording intent and resolving actions will result in a slower game than "I go, you go." A game designer trying to make a game with fast combat without knowing who will play it has to make some assumption about how likely those conditions are to be met. If his assumption is wrong, it will be harder for his game to meet its goal because more groups that try it will take more time to play than he expected.
Cyberzombie wrote: All I have been saying is that simultaneous declaration isn't always a bad system for RPGs, and can be faster than the current system in certain groups. I can say this with 100% certainty because I've actually witnessed it personally. But that doesn't mean it's always a good system either.
You posted while I was composing this post. I'll definitely read through both your posts and PhoneLobster's more thoroughly before I respond further, but I can agree with this sentiment. Almost nothing in game design is universally bad. I still feel it's important to point out the potential costs of rules like that when someone suggests them, especially in threads where the original poster seemed interested in writing something for a general audience. In this case the main costs are additional possibilities to consider each round and resolution time, which as PhoneLobster pointed out is more of an issue for humans than computers making most computer games poor examples in a TTRPG context.
Last edited by rampaging-poet on Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mistborn »

Zak S wrote:1. Where are you on whether anyone here is lying or deceived as to their own group's reaction to the rules they've got? If you think they are: where is your evidence?
It's not that those people are lying, but the Dunning-Kruger effect is a real thing and people are really bad at assessing how good they are at things.
2. On the issue of the utility of designing for an observed group and then tossing it out in case someone else wants it vs. assessing a broad middle and designing for them?

3. If you would design for the presumed broad middle, is the motive only economic? Why bother then considering there isn't much money to be made anyway?
While an RPG made for a wide audience may or may not be successful, I don't see it doing better than one developed just for your gaming group.
4. Given the clear and cited refutation of everything lobster just said, how is it that you stand behind it? Why not simply go "Lobster, you're nuts, stop typing things like that, it slows the process of anyone learning anything down enormously."
One again PL is a dick but you haven't refuted any of his arguments, like at all. You attempts to defend your "rulings not rules" position have all been hilarious failures, sorry to break it to you. As for this threads actual topic PL's argument seems to be that adding more steps to the initiative process makes it take longer to resolve. That seems like a pretty solid argument.
5. And, re: the minor side issue of my own games and their alleged irrelevance or special teaparty status here: Cite evidence or stop making claims.
When you resolve outcomes by fiat that's what we in the Den call Magic Tea Party or MTP for short. Your "why do I need rules when I can just make it up as I go along" argument isn't new. We've had this discussion like a million times, the short of it is this
FrankTrollman wrote:MTP is usually used in the context of "that's just MTP". Magical Teaparty is the first RPG element. It's free. And we can use it to mind caulk anything. That's not revolutionary, and the results aren't predictable.

So when someone says they have a cool system of handling something, and that "system" is MTP, it would not be unusual at all for someone on the Den to say "That's just MTP." And even though tone doesn't carry over text on the interwebs terribly well, I want to assure you that the sentence would be absolutely dripping with scorn. But it wouldn't be dismissive and contemptuous because MTP is inherently bad, it would be such because the delivered product would be literally the equal of what a five year old could do.

If a five year old does a stick figure in crayon, it is charming and goes on the fridge. If a grown man does one and asks why I don't want it on my fridge, I don't think that needs a reasoned response. It deserves a dismissive and cruel comment. And I am sure that it would get one.

But what MTP is, fundamentally, is worse than every single other rule in your game. At least, it fucking better be. Because MTP is free and takes up zero space. So absolutely any rule you write that isn't better than MTP is something you should cut in editing. Which doesn't mean MTP is "bad" or that it doesn't have a place. It just means that every single rule you include in your game is supposed to be better than MTP.

-Username17
Last edited by Mistborn on Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:00 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Cyberzombie »

rampaging-poet wrote: You posted while I was composing this post. I'll definitely read through both your posts and PhoneLobster's more thoroughly before I respond further, but I can agree with this sentiment. Almost nothing in game design is universally bad. I still feel it's important to point out the potential costs of rules like that when someone suggests them, especially in threads where the original poster seemed interested in writing something for a general audience. In this case the main costs are additional possibilities to consider each round and resolution time, which as PhoneLobster pointed out is more of an issue for humans than computers making most computer games poor examples in a TTRPG context.
Without a doubt, simultaneous declaration has a lot of issues when being implemented in a tabletop RPG, and there's a great deal of pros and cons to be pointed out regardless which design direction is taken.

As for marketing RPGs, I'm of the belief that an RPG is first tested with someone's own home groups, and generally should be built to handle that group. Since the original poster complained about long combat times, I generally assume a lot of that problem came from slow players in a gaming group, since I've found that to usually be the case. There's some cases where the rules themselves are slow (like Shadowrun), but usually the problem lies with some PCs being slow at coming to a decision (which consequently leads to a snowball effect where all the PCs get slower). So I said that simultaneous declaration can be a possible way of speeding up the slower players, or to be more precise, to make things more efficient by synchronizing their thinking time. Obviously of course, there is an overhead cost to doing that, but if you've got a fast DM and slow players, sometimes the extra DM overhead can be a net time saver.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Zak S wrote: Now you're doing the thing where instead of answering the question you just type random insults.
Oooh! My turn.


.........

Go love yourself, you ridiculous, psychotic, skanky, delicious, delicious grandma-humping janitor-humping crack-fuck.

.........



This is even more fun than random organ generation.
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Post by Maxus »

Deaddm, I understand the mockery, but wishing death on folks is the one insult you can't use 'round here.

Expect the Fence Builder to show up soon if you don't change that, and probably even if you do.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Maxus wrote:Deaddm, I understand the mockery, but wishing death on folks is the one insult you can't use 'round here.
I posted the randomly generated insults verbatim. I won't do that again.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like to take all of the text from a TGD argument, and then use it to replace the dialog of a hentai manga.


Image
the face Zaklobster makes when posting on the den
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Post by fbmf »

deaddmwalking wrote:
Maxus wrote:Deaddm, I understand the mockery, but wishing death on folks is the one insult you can't use 'round here.
I posted the randomly generated insults verbatim. I won't do that again.
Thank you.

Game On,
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Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

Patchy! I swear, yours must be the noisiest library in Gensokyo.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

OgreBattle wrote:Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like to take all of the text from a TGD argument, and then use it to replace the dialog of a hentai manga.
A direct transposition would probably flow horribly.

EDIT: What's den policy on plausibly erotic content? Tagged spoiler?
Last edited by RadiantPhoenix on Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Oh what the crap.

Cyberzombie: your examples are bullshit. 2nd edition AD&D is fast because you don't have any choices to make, not because simultaneous declarations doesn't slow the game down. Computer games are sped up by simultaneous declarations because networked computers are capable of "listening" to multiple people simultaneously, allowing moves to be literally interpreted simultaneously. Citing either of these things as evidence that simultaneous declaration doesn't slow down a tabletop RPG is somewhere between "confused" and "dishonest." I know it can be hard to admit you're wrong when you've been called on your bullshit by PhoneLobster because he argues like a crazy person - but you are wrong.

Zak S: Holy balls. Are you still at this? You fucking lost. You lost more thoroughly than anyone has ever lost anything. You claimed that you were able to make rulings consistently better than rules in less time than it takes to look something up in a book with a decent index or a searchable pdf. Then you issued a challenge to yourself to prove that you were capable of doing that. Then you fucking failed to deliver. First of all, you took over a hundred times as long to deliver the ruling as you said you were going to, and then when you actually delivered it, everyone but you said it was crap. You were forced to retreat to the position that when you said that people could ask you for a ruling, that the ruling you provided didn't have to be good according to the people who your own challenge gave asking rights to. In short: that your definition of a "good ruling" had been reduced to "a ruling you personally think is acceptable" which is fucking circular and you still didn't even meet the time constraints you jackass.

-Username17
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