How to make Shadowrun less bad

[Lago PARANOIA]

So if they get shot and die, then they're just dead.

It's the risk you run. And is in fact pretty necessary if you want the Street Samurai to exist as their own avenue of advancement that's not so industrialized that they're indistinguishable from riggers.

And in the case of the "super-zombies" route, what is it that's powering up the samurai that's both non-magical and also non-duplicable by a megacorp? You could totally go with "you get powers from this serum, but only if you have an edge score", I guess. Or something?

I don't know. Pick your own favorite bullshit explanation. I'd just say that there are mutagens or roboticization processes that can go above and beyond what can be done in even the finest replacement labs, but whether or not they do or get anything is literally random. And subjects already have to be 'wared up to the maximum just to survive the processes. PC Street Samurais are those who played the odds (or were forced to play the odds) and won. If a Megacorp really wanted to they could just round up dozens or even hundreds of test subjects and put them through the process but it's likely that they just ended up wasting tens or even hundreds of millions of nuyen with nothing to show for it. So a AA corporation could have a couple of Superzombie Magicians in their ranks but it's not like the Executive of Mad Science can just put in a work order for X number of superzombies like they could for hovertanks.

[Cyberzombie]

And in the case of the "super-zombies" route, what is it that's powering up the samurai that's both non-magical and also non-duplicable by a megacorp? You could totally go with "you get powers from this serum, but only if you have an edge score", I guess. Or something?

Why are people determined to turn Shadowrun into a superhero setting? A cyberzombie is just expensive as hell to create, and corps aren't going to be willing to burn a million or so nuyen on a single security guy, especially given that even with wired reflexes 3, max dermal plating and a bunch of other augments, the guy is still effectively mortal and can get dropped by assault rifle fire. We're not talking about robocop class stuff here where bullets just bounce off him.

And even if you do decide to make that investment, there's a chance that your new employee apparently decides to take all his awesome stuff, go off the grid and become a shadowrunner. Which by the existence of the street samurai as a primary runner type, happens rather frequently.

It's perfectly understandable why the corps don't produce mass amounts of super expensive wired soldiers and you don't need some crazy Captain America superserum stories to justify it.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why are people determined to turn Shadowrun into a superhero setting?

Shadowrun is already a fucking superhero setting. I mean, magical mechanics aside, as soon as you allow personal Bubblegum-Crisis style mechas in the game -- and seriously, why wouldn't you -- you've already passed that event horizon.

I mean, a portion of the game setting and experience dedicated to running a Mirror's Edge/Equilibrium/Cowboy Bebop experience is fine and all, but it's not the end-all/be-all of cyberpunk.

[Cyberzombie]

Shadowrun is already a fucking superhero setting. I mean, magical mechanics aside, as soon as you allow personal Bubblegum-Crisis style mechas in the game -- and seriously, why wouldn't you -- you've already passed that event horizon.

Because the flavor has never supported that. The entire point of Shadowrun has always been an emphasis on being stealthy and ultimately vulnerable to mass hordes of grunts. This is the opposite of most superhero setups where you basically only worry about other superheroes.

While you may get an occasional superhero that works, like the more mortal guys like batman or green arrow. It's not a setting where invulnerability is a valid superpower. The mechanics of every edition have been that way, where even great dragons and alphaware cyberzombies have to fear military level firepower. This just isn't the setting where you can play superman shrugging off tank shells.

Shadowrun is a setting about well, people that stick to the shadows. People trying to stay off the radar in an oppressive world. It's not about some battle royale between superman, Raiden and the latest model gundams that takes place in downtown Seattle. That's turning the flavor of the world completely upside down, not to mention doing something the mechanics have a terrible time supporting.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Superhero settings only posit characters like Dr. Doom and Magneto flaunting society's monopoly of force because characters like them are unique and countable in the dozens and society doesn't have an appropriate force counter. But Shadowrun isn't one of those settings. Tony Stark has already turned over the specs to his Iron Man suit and there are literally tens of millions of people with enough superpowers to blow up an APC in one-on-one combat. And what's more, no one is positing that people get up to Silver Age superman or Vegeta in power level -- except tongue-in-cheek. We're imagining The Incredible Hulk or Baoh or Kenshiro. People able to level a city block in less than an hour and whose total members number in the tens or even hundred of thousands. But still not strong enough to actually challenge society's monopoly of force.

[Cyberzombie]

We're imagining The Incredible Hulk or Baoh or Kenshiro. People able to level a city block and numbering in the tens or even hundred of thousands. But still not strong enough to actually challenge society's monopoly of force.

Leveling city blocks isn't what shadowrun is all about. The entire point of shadowrun is staying off the radar. If you've got Hulk levels of powers, where you take on several tanks singlehandedly and routinely tear down skyscrapers, you are no longer a shadow operative of any kind, you're a terrorist and on several corporations and nations most wanted lists. You probably have at least several dozen teams tracking your location at all times and the only reason you'd ever be alive and free is simply that nobody has the necessary forces to take you down.

If you want that sort of thing, it seems like Rifts or Mutants and Masterminds would be a much better fit. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a cool game, it just doesn't fit the Shadowrun flavor. At all.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Leveling city blocks isn't what shadowrun is all about. The entire point of shadowrun is staying off the radar. If you've got Hulk levels of powers, where you take on several tanks singlehandedly and routinely tear down skyscrapers, you are no longer a shadow operative of any kind, you're a terrorist and on several corporations and nations most wanted lists. You probably have at least several dozen teams tracking your location at all times and the only reason you'd ever be alive and free is simply that nobody has the necessary forces to take you down.

Gee, if only cyberpunk posited man-made disasters caused by one to a handful of people where large portions of the city (including skyscrapers) are wrecked and thousands of people die as a result of a 'mission'. Moreover, despite frenzied attempts by law enforcement to catch said criminals the perpetrators having a large chance of getting away with such national news-making crimes. Subject to the planning and skill of the perps, of course.

Nah, that's just so out-of-genre that it's unimaginable. Le sigh.

[Aryxbez]

Why are people determined to turn Shadowrun into a superhero setting?

As I've seen so far, there's been discussion on "Super Saiyan" paths, or basically end-game advancement ranges, where it's like you're casting the shadows now, than running from them. There's validity in this request, in that Shadowrun has "Bloodzilla", Rituals, and other pre-existing Magician stuff that escalates to close to this level (like a 500BP Magician can create a lightning storm that = suppressive fire to everyone in like 900meters). So if Magicians get to have it, why not let the other CORE archtypes of the game have it as well, surely don't want to continue "Wizards rule, Fighters Drool" paradigm (doesn't "just" exist in D&D).

I can understand ye don't want it to necessarily embrace some of its tropes (whatever those are at this point, as even DC is going all 'dark'.). However, Superhero genre embraces all kinds of power levels, tone, and settings. From Green Arrow/Punisher/Shining-Knigh/Spider-Jerusalem?, to Wolverine/Spiderman-Unlimited/John Carter, to The Hulk, and Superman/Silver-Surfer/Goku. Denying that would simply be ignoring the sheer amount of comics that exist.

We're not talking about robocop class stuff here where bullets just bounce off him.

Seriously?! a character of the fraggin 80's, isn't a suitable inspirational point to emulate?!!?!? Tis likely I don't understand the inspirational material behind Shadowrun, but I very well assume 80's Cyberpunk bounces ideas off of 80's like action material (I know the "Rambo" was an old archetype essentially). Plus, it even hadAssault Cannons, which excited me to no end to discover recently.

[Cyberzombie]

Seriously?! a character of the fraggin 80's, isn't a suitable inspirational point to emulate?!!?!? Tis likely I don't understand the inspirational material behind Shadowrun, but I very well assume 80's Cyberpunk bounces ideas off of 80's like action material (I know the "Rambo" was an old archetype essentially). Plus, it even hadAssault Cannons, which excited me to no end to discover recently.

Yeah, Shadowrun drew some inspiration from robocop, and it's certainly a similar corporate run dystopian setting. My point was that mechanically in no edition of Shadowrun do you have Shadowrunners with that kind of invulnerability. Street samurai, despite being metal and all, are still very squishy. In the SR setting, you just don't have those levels of invulnerability.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What's hilarious is he's posting stuff like this from the name Cyberzombie, which is pretty much the Shadowrun answer to "what if you load 6.0 Essence of cyberware on a person instead of 5.9?!" In a game which features giant cybered-up fantasy creatures who pretty much exist to take hits from anti-materiel weapons. And you can play one! Troll samurai are a thing! I can't exactly be arsed to look up the damage codes and calculate odds of survival, but I've seen trolls with minimal cyber walk away from taking a grenade point blank with the harshest interpretation I could offer of the "chunky salsa" rules. And it wasn't even some statistically bullshit roll, it was just "oh, well, that's a lot of Body."

I mean, they're not exactly doing so unfazed, but the lack of self-awareness in posting that is entertaining!

[Seerow]

What's hilarious is he's posting stuff like this from the name Cyberzombie, which is pretty much the Shadowrun answer to "what if you load 6.0 Essence of cyberware on a person instead of 5.9?!" In a game which features giant cybered-up fantasy creatures who pretty much exist to take hits from anti-materiel weapons. And you can play one! Troll samurai are a thing! I can't exactly be arsed to look up the damage codes and calculate odds of survival, but I've seen trolls with minimal cyber walk away from taking a grenade point blank with the harshest interpretation I could offer of the "chunky salsa" rules. And it wasn't even some statistically bullshit roll, it was just "oh, well, that's a lot of Body."

I mean, they're not exactly doing so unfazed, but the lack of self-awareness in posting that is entertaining!

Worth noting: The cyber zombie rules are an area that could easily be expanded upon to give Sammy's more room to grow. After all, a character who goes into the negative essence zone start having weird shit happening like causing a constant anti-magic aura wherever they go.

This means we already have a phlebtonium source in the system that people are willing to accept giving normal people with just technology access to things that interact with magic. Street Samurais level up into Cyber Zombies. The two real issues is right now cyber zombies kind of suck, and cyber zombies have hurdles to jump through that amount to "GM Fiat required".

But you can totally actually make the Cyber Zombie rules something both more accessible, and something more characters actually want to access, making it the logical extension/super saiyaning of the Street Samurai giving access to more unique capabilities, a unique upgrade path, plus unlocking their cyber loadout from essence restrictions.

[Almaz]

It's like someone with the username Spinal Tap decrying having their numbers go to eleven.

[Antumbra]

...Cyberzombies in setting are some of the most pitiable wretches imaginable. Their antimagic aura comes from the astral pollution of being a tortured spirit chained to a corpse so unrecognisable that it screams against inhabiting it.

Nobody who actually understands what it means would do it.

Runners could totally end up like that. But it shouldn't be the assumed endpoint and it probably shouldn't be made nice and shiny and clean.

If Street Samurai have to end up as anything, they should end up as Cyborgs instead. Cyborgs are extremely badass, even with the dodgy "we don't really want you to play this" rules for playing them.

[Seerow]

...Cyberzombies in setting are some of the most pitiable wretches imaginable. Their antimagic aura comes from the astral pollution of being a tortured spirit chained to a corpse so unrecognisable that it screams against inhabiting it.

Nobody who actually understands what it means would do it.

Runners could totally end up like that. But it shouldn't be the assumed endpoint and it probably shouldn't be made nice and shiny and clean.

If Street Samurai have to end up as anything, they should end up as Cyborgs instead. Cyborgs are extremely badass, even with the dodgy "we don't really want you to play this" rules for playing them.

The problem with Cyborgs is when you really get down to it, with an archetype that is "Possess any machine and kill stuff with it", replacing your body with a regular machine doesn't make you stand out in any reasonable way, and is actually significantly weaker than the guy who can have you and 4 more just like you at his disposal, plus countless other things for other situations.


But I really see no problem with "shiny and cleaning" up the Cyber Zombie concept. Seriously, it just requires the techniques be refined to the point where it's not constant torture to live with it, and you can retain a more or less normal life. Meanwhile, I actually really kind of dig the whole flavor of the spirit being bound to the body after the point it naturally would have moved on. Remember, the thing we're looking for is to get something that makes the archetype unique. Transcending typical humanity and become a human/machine/spirit hybrid opens up the gates for a lot of really potentially cool shit you can gain access to that could be completely unique from what other character types do.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Worth noting: The cyber zombie rules are an area that could easily be expanded upon to give Sammy's more room to grow. After all, a character who goes into the negative essence zone start having weird shit happening like causing a constant anti-magic aura wherever they go.

Oh, definitely. There's a reason why futuristic ubermensch whose powers don't explicitly derive from a psychic/magical origin often end up being various degrees of physiologically (and often psychologically) fucked up. I brought up the Borg and video game superzombies for a reason.

If Street Samurai have to end up as anything, they should end up as Cyborgs instead. Cyborgs are extremely badass, even with the dodgy "we don't really want you to play this" rules for playing them.

Bioware is a thing now in sci-fi and one you can't really ignore. I'm all for having some high-end street samurai ending up like the Ninja/Grey Fox from Metal Gear Solid or like General Grievous, but I think it's kind of bogus and sad if some don't end up feelng like Albert Wesker or Baoh.

[kzt]

The problem I'm seeing with SR character roles is that of the 3 core roles that Frank talks about (SS, Mage, Hacker) only one of them currently has role protection, which is the mage. Assuming that you want to have these 3 roles be the core roles and be kept distinct then you need to make some changes.

If you change the way you think about the SS to be "guys who act really fast and are really good in combat" to include adepts as well as cyberguy, you could provide role protection by banning magic that allows mages to get multiple IPs and making cyber/bio/adept that allows multiple IPs to permanently reduce/limit the power of mages in some significant way.

I don't see an equally obvious way to do this for hackers, since currently that is a small set of skills that anyone can in theory learn for a reasonable low investment plus a bunch of tools you can buy fairly easily.

Ignoring the option to abandon that as a core role we instead need to make it so that you can't easily be a hacker and cast magic/have multiple IPs. This seems to requires redefining hacker to not be a set of skills and a computer but instead be something "else".

The obvious way is to fiat that "normal people" can't defeat modern computer security and that hackers can for "some reason". Truthfully the whole Techno with a gigabit wireless network stack in their head drives me crazy, but something like that would also work. I'd rather see them able to just use the normal tools that people usually use but they can do things that are not possible for a "normal person" to do. I'm probably stealing this concept from Brunner's "Shockwave Rider", which featured a guy who did it with a touch-tone phone.

[Aryxbez]

My point was that mechanically in no edition of Shadowrun do you have Shadowrunners with that kind of invulnerability. Street samurai, despite being metal and all, are still very squishy. In the SR setting, you just don't have those levels of invulnerability.

Like hell to that being true at all. Stahlseele is one has gone on record multiple times as mentioning Trolls as being capable of absorbing bullet after bullet fire, and another basically mentioned eating grenades. So while it's understandable if ye find that evidence skeptical, and even their mentions of it, does seem to have been some rules for Street Sam's absorbing bulletfire. While ye might attribute to Trolls being their own "Powersource", it's quite possible/likely that other non-troll Sams could get similar scores to also have bullets be bouncing off (probably just a certain caliber cut-off point for them).

Even putting aside some 3rd editions rules, I know "at least" one story in 5th edition book where a Troll is described as having bullets bouncing off of his hide (shows picture of blue troll w/small extended baton and knife? dual wielding them). Given they go for some hardcore grognardism, I'd imagine it's not crazy to think there are other stories or culture of thought where this is the consensus. So, if they're cool with Troll hide "bouncing off bullets", then I think "RoboCop" should be a valid slot-in for non-troll Street Sams?

Otherwise, understandable in what ye were trying to clear up there.

[Antumbra]

Bioware is a thing now in sci-fi and one you can't really ignore. I'm all for having some high-end street samurai ending up like the Ninja/Grey Fox from Metal Gear Solid or like General Grievous, but I think it's kind of bogus and sad if some don't end up feelng like Albert Wesker or Baoh.

Sure - and Biocyborgs, who replace all of their body with gengineered meat and bone, losing all their weak humanity are fine too.

Perhaps even Paracyborgs, by adding such things as Barghest and Juggernaut parts. Seeing as you can rig biodrones and paranimals can be made biodrones without losing their magical abilities, it's barely a step forwards to stick a Cranial Containment Unit inside one. A biological CCU is easy to imagine as well.

Somewhat more involved to cut them up and make a chimera, but Cyberzombies so why not?

I don't like the cyberzombie route so much, but that can easily accompany the other routes and if it's all balanced together... then it's just, like, my opinion. Just so long as we still have plausible space for NPC cyberzombies to be terrible abominations against your so-called gods.

Edit: Definitely room for Gene and Nano routes as well, though they both overlap with Bio and Cyber. Armstrong was clearly the end result of the most brutally powerful Nanohive possible. JC Denton would be another easy example.

Edit 2: Remembered that Ancient History put up the preliminary notes to a scrapped advanced magic book, High Magic. There're some thoughts about bleeding edge magical feats at the end that may be somewhat relevant when talking about high-end feats: https://app.box.com/shared/l8lq3sjhu7

[Korwin]

The problem I'm seeing with SR character roles is that of the 3 core roles that Frank talks about (SS, Mage, Hacker) only one of them currently has role protection, which is the mage. Assuming that you want to have these 3 roles be the core roles and be kept distinct then you need to make some changes.

We allready had that.
Either remove the role protection for magic --> no qualities needed, everone can use masgic.
Or introduce needed qualities for the other archetypes.
Or do both, everyone can do minor magic and hacking, ect. But do be good at it you need qualities.

Myself I like the first option best.

[Username17]

Cybertechnology, the book that Cyberzombies are introduced in, not only makes a bunch of Robocop references, it introduces the cybertorso and the cyberskull, two objects whose entire purpose is to slap hardened armor onto and into a character for the explicit purpose of bouncing bullets off their manly chests.

Shadowrun has at various times supported the "invulno-troll" character whose massive damage resistance allows them to soak bullet storms and explosions without flinching. But really, Cyberzombie's rant about how Shadowrun doesn't support Robocop style bullet bouncing characters is deeply ironic. He is literally named after the book which introduced exactly that character concept to the game. It's not like he could have missed it either, Cybermancy is on page 59, Hard Armor Body Plating is on page 37. His screen name is literally a pointer to the page citation that he is full of shit.

-Username17

[kzt]

We allready had that.
Either remove the role protection for magic --> no qualities needed, everone can use masgic.
Or introduce needed qualities for the other archetypes.
Or do both, everyone can do minor magic and hacking, ect. But do be good at it you need qualities.

Myself I like the first option best.

I'm not a big fan of games with classes, so I'd rather go with the first one too and see how it works out in play. But the current approach is not so good and any of the 3 would seem likely to be an improvement.

[Username17]

I personally wouldn't have any problem with there being some sort of expensive tag you had to have before you could cast spells or summon demons as a combat action. But I think things would be improved considerably if access to time consuming ritual magic was opened up. What's odd of course, is that precedent does exist for that kind of thing. Mundanes participated in the Ghost Dance, mundanes can bind Free Spirits with their True Name (which I changed to Spirit Formula in SR4 to consolidate some stuff), Mundanes can refine alchemical radicals, and so on. Mundanes being able to participate in ritual magic has been with us since the big blue book, and more stuff got added as soon as the Grimoire came out.

The truth is that the total monopoly on magic by magicians is basically a fuck you to player characters by the chargen rules - it's not even supported by the setting canon. Mundane players should be able to learn and cast ritual sorcery, as well as create and use enchanted items.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

Plus, it even had Assault Cannons, which excited me to no end to discover recently.

Shadowrun not only has Robocop's Assault Cannons, the signature gun of the game is based on his Auto-9 Handgun:

Shadowrun totally sucks on Robocops Robocock, it is obviously kosher as inspiration.

Regarding Sam upgrade paths, going full cyber is already an option in several other games. Cyberpunk 2020 was much more liberal with its cyber-modification, for example, allowing full on brain-in-a-robot-body with only the horrifying dehumanisation and late-stage Cyberpsychosis to worry about. They had several options for full-body conversion, from the relatively low key:

To full on Military class walking tanks:

[Lago PARANOIA]

The truth is that the total monopoly on magic by magicians is basically a fuck you to player characters by the chargen rules - it's not even supported by the setting canon. Mundane players should be able to learn and cast ritual sorcery, as well as create and use enchanted items.

-Username17

Truefax. It also allows new avenues of mayhem for Shadowrun plots. I mean, terrorists and assault teams using drones and bombs and electronic warfare are a classic of the genre but they also get stale after awhile. Imagine what can be done if people were able to get black market rituals to summon Toxic Spirits or a supernatural disease that turned people into ghouls or whatever.

[Fucks]

Yeah, that would be pretty cool