How to make Shadowrun less bad

[unnamednpc]

The truth is that the total monopoly on magic by magicians is basically a fuck you to player characters by the chargen rules - it's not even supported by the setting canon. Mundane players should be able to learn and cast ritual sorcery, as well as create and use enchanted items.

-Username17

Truefax. It also allows new avenues of mayhem for Shadowrun plots. I mean, terrorists and assault teams using drones and bombs and electronic warfare are a classic of the genre but they also get stale after awhile. Imagine what can be done if people were able to get black market rituals to summon Toxic Spirits or a supernatural disease that turned people into ghouls or whatever.

To be fair, that's already the plot of about half of all published adventures. It just might alleviate the probabilistic stupid of having the bad guy of the week be yet another toxic shaman.

[Antumbra]

...or a supernatural disease that turned people into ghouls or whatever.

They can already do that. Even if you don't use the "zombie apocalypse" stats given to the ghoul strain in Running Wild, ghoul fluids are nastily infectious.

I suppose it's something they've overlooked in the setting - it'd be a perfect terror plot to liquidise some ghouls you dug up from a nest in the Barrens and then fly a crop duster over the city centre.

Or just "assassinate" a target with an injection dart or similar.

[Sashi]

I personally wouldn't have any problem with there being some sort of expensive tag you had to have before you could cast spells or summon demons as a combat action. But I think things would be improved considerably if access to time consuming ritual magic was opened up. What's odd of course, is that precedent does exist for that kind of thing. Mundanes participated in the Ghost Dance, mundanes can bind Free Spirits with their True Name (which I changed to Spirit Formula in SR4 to consolidate some stuff), Mundanes can refine alchemical radicals, and so on. Mundanes being able to participate in ritual magic has been with us since the big blue book, and more stuff got added as soon as the Grimoire came out.

The truth is that the total monopoly on magic by magicians is basically a fuck you to player characters by the chargen rules - it's not even supported by the setting canon. Mundane players should be able to learn and cast ritual sorcery, as well as create and use enchanted items.

-Username17

Seems to me that you really need a tag like that for everyone.

Magic lets you cast spells in combat.
Resonance lets you hack brains in line of sight.
CyberAffinity lets you load up on enough 'ware to be a mobile weapon's platform.

Now we just need something for Riggers. I'm tempted to say that CyberAffinity should also govern Rigging somehow, since shit like a shoulder-mounted gun is really just a drone "attached" as the movement mode. And that way Riggers don't overshadow Street Sams because riggers are street sams.

[kzt]

In SR mages get a whole list of powers nobody else has. This is at least:
Casting Magic
Magical Defense
Summoning magical monsters
Dismissing magical monsters
Astral perception
Astral projection
Making magical weapons
Using magical weapons

I tend to think they should be unbundled and you get to decide to buy them separately or as a bundle of two, though using magic weapons seems like something everyone can do inherently and everyone should be able to learn how to perform magical defense.

[Username17]

Seems to me that you really need a tag like that for everyone.

It certainly makes things easier to design like that, but you don't actually need everyone to have such a tag. As was mentioned earlier, I think by DSM, character balance is between two actual characters, not between the theoretical possibilities available to your splat. Each individual character won't have all the spells, won't have all the gear, won't have all the skills, and so on. So if one character type has a lot more options available to it, that's not necessarily a problem. The Mage is overpowered compared to the Weapons Expert in SR4 because it's cheaper to advance as a Mage than it is to advance as a Weapons Expert, so the Mage acquires new abilities and larger dicepools faster than the Weapons Expert does - but very importantly not because the Mage has more abilities to choose from in the book (although he does). More abilities to choose from in the book just means that at the end of the day, there will be more abilities in the book you didn't take.

As long as there are more abilities to choose from to acquire than your character will actually acquire, the number of abilities is in principle irrelevant. If you print a hundred new Fighter feats, or a thousand new Fighter feats, any particular Fighter's power level is unlikely to change much. At sixth level they have seven feats, and printing a few dozen more to choose from isn't going to change that. Now in practice the number of abilities to choose from is probably going to matter quite a bit. Every time a new option is printed, there is a chance that it's going to end up being Bloodzilla or something, so in general the guy who picks six things off a list of 50 is going to have some better tricks than the guy who picked six things off a list of 25. But that's just a general trend, it's still entirely possible to make a D&D Fighter where you have hundreds if not thousands of options to choose from and none of them are especially good.

Another thing to remember is that in general when someone goes super saiyan and starts having abilities that are global in scale - their personal combat abilities don't change all that much. The Conjurer can summon a spirit that can level cities and fight Godzilla, but he's personally still just a guy in a funny hat. The Face can run for president and command a fleet of Nightwraith Fighter Bombers, but again he's just a dude in a suit and gains no special resistance to bullets or even knives. So the ability to have some sort of region locked combat shtick like spontaneous sorcery doesn't have to go to 11. You don't have to worry about rationing that shit at the global scale, because people don't generally have split second timeframe global scale conflicts.

-Username17

[Sashi]

It's not just a balance thing, I also think people would be a lot more accepting of a lot of the presented ideas if they're tied to their own stat that says they're super special awesome at it.

If only Resonance hackers can do Brain Hacking then I think there'd be a lot less squawking about it. Since not everyone with a datajack is brain hacking. But the Decker on your team totally is.

And CyberAffinity would really just be a way to make Wired Reflexes and Cyberlimbs explicitly cost less essence for CyberSams than they do for other characters, without relying on the MC to give them boatloads of nuyen and a Delta-class clinic.

[Nath]

In SR mages get a whole list of powers nobody else has. This is at least:
Casting Magic
Magical Defense
Summoning magical monsters
Dismissing magical monsters
Astral perception
Astral projection
Making magical weapons
Using magical weapons

I tend to think they should be unbundled and you get to decide to buy them separately or as a bundle of two, though using magic weapons seems like something everyone can do inherently and everyone should be able to learn how to perform magical defense.

Well, in 4th and 5th editions, Spell Defense is available to anyone up to rating 4, through the Magic Resistance quality.

However, Magic Resistance and Counterspelling do not provide complete magic defenses, since they do nothing against spirit powers.

[Seerow]

In SR mages get a whole list of powers nobody else has. This is at least:
Casting Magic
Magical Defense
Summoning magical monsters
Dismissing magical monsters
Astral perception
Astral projection
Making magical weapons
Using magical weapons

I tend to think they should be unbundled and you get to decide to buy them separately or as a bundle of two, though using magic weapons seems like something everyone can do inherently and everyone should be able to learn how to perform magical defense.

Well, in 4th and 5th editions, Spell Defense is available to anyone up to rating 4, through the Magic Resistance quality.

However, Magic Resistance and Counterspelling do not provide complete magic defenses, since they do nothing against spirit powers.

Even besides that Magic Resistance is generally inferior to counterspelling. Counterspelling costs at most the same(typically less) and allows you to protect your party in addition to yourself, doesn't hinder helpful spellcasting, has a higher cap, has useful metamagics/foci that synergize with it making it much better, and doesn't limit your access to other qualities.

[phlapjackage]

Seems to me that you really need a tag like that for everyone.

Magic lets you cast spells in combat.
Resonance lets you hack brains in line of sight.
CyberAffinity lets you load up on enough 'ware to be a mobile weapon's platform.

Now we just need something for Riggers. I'm tempted to say that CyberAffinity should also govern Rigging somehow, since shit like a shoulder-mounted gun is really just a drone "attached" as the movement mode. And that way Riggers don't overshadow Street Sams because riggers are street sams.

I see what you mean, but I wouldn't want SR to go this route. It seems like the start of a class-based system, where first you choose Magic/Res/Cyber qualities, then that tells you what kind of character you can play and what abilities you can have.

I know SR already sorta has this with the Mag/Res tags, but as others have said, maybe it's times for those tags to go away.

[Cyberzombie]

Cybertechnology, the book that Cyberzombies are introduced in, not only makes a bunch of Robocop references, it introduces the cybertorso and the cyberskull, two objects whose entire purpose is to slap hardened armor onto and into a character for the explicit purpose of bouncing bullets off their manly chests.

Shadowrun has at various times supported the "invulno-troll" character whose massive damage resistance allows them to soak bullet storms and explosions without flinching. But really, Cyberzombie's rant about how Shadowrun doesn't support Robocop style bullet bouncing characters is deeply ironic. He is literally named after the book which introduced exactly that character concept to the game. It's not like he could have missed it either, Cybermancy is on page 59, Hard Armor Body Plating is on page 37. His screen name is literally a pointer to the page citation that he is full of shit.

While this is true. I would argue that Cyberzombies are not promoted as something that you'd ever want to play as a PC, as are the majority of other methods of invulnerability. Because sure, a troll in military grade armor makes most small arms bounce off, but the game is set up where it's not designed as typical shadowrunner gear.

I view it similar to playing a low magic game of 3.5. Sure, you can do it. I mean you can go ahead and restrict PCs from buying/crafting items, but the game isn't designed to support that playstyle and you're going to run into a lot of problems doing it.

Shadowrun just isn't supposed to be about guys running around with rocket launchers and tanks leveling buildings. I mean I guess you can play it GTA-style where you just keep killing SWAT teams until they eventually send in the army and you go out in a blaze of glory, but that's not what any of the fiction seems to support as far as what Shadowrunners are supposed to do. The iconic characters are pretty much dressed up in armor jackets and other relatively civilian level armors.

I remember in a prior thread you told me to look at the covers of the various SR books, and at this time I'd urge you to do the same. Do you see any of the Shadowrunners on any of the covers dressed in anything beyond civilian-level clothes? Do you see anyone wearing Master Chief power armor or looking like robocop?

Like I've said throughout this thread, Shadowrun has always emphasized staying off the radar. And while there are stats for military vehicles, cyberware and vehicles, they're not considered something a Shadowrunner would be using. There's stats for Stone Golems in D&D, but that doesn't mean you're supposed to be playing one.

[Username17]

The front cover of Man & Machine does in fact show a dude who is all Robocopped out cutting up killer robots with a katana.



Threats 2 shows a dude in powered full plate.

Giant robots grace the covers of Brainscan and SotA: 2063. 3rd edition actually had quite a few covers with Robocop shenanigans on them. If you're willing to accept new stuff, the lady on the front of Dragonfall is literally wearing Master Chief armor.

And of course, numerous covers show characters in attack helicopters or other armored strike vehicles (examples: Rigger 3, Into the Shadows, Arsenal, etc.). And don't forget the number of covers that show a fucking dragon on it, which is basically the same thing and runs from books like Aztlan to Seattle Sourcebook and Corporate Download in between.

-Username17

[mlangsdorf]

So I'm thinking about running a SR4 + EotM + alt.War + BP advancement. I'm looking at some other house rules below and would like some feedback on them.

OBVIOUS FIXES
* Merge Strength and Body.
* Replace Willpower with Edge for all uses.
* Merge all the Combat skills into Melee Combat, Ranged Combat, and Dodge. The former combat skills become the appropriate specializations. Melee Combat, Ranged Combat, and Dodge would be their own skill group.

PROBABLE FIXES
* Merge Combat Spells and Health Spells into a new category, Life Spells. A tradition's Life Spell spirit is its former Combat Spell spirit.
* Split Manipulation Spells into Energy Manipulation Spells and Physical Manipulation spells. All mental manipulation spells are Energy manipulation spells as are all other manipulation spells that don't directly manipulate physical things. Physical manipulation spells are things like Turn to Goo, Fashion, or Mist that directly affect Physical things. A tradition's Energy Manipulation spirit is its former Manipulation spirit and it's Energy manipulation is it's former Health spirit.
* Drain is resisted by Tradition + Body for Combat (Life), Tradition + Intuition for Detection, Tradition + Edge for Health (Energy Manipulation), Tradition + Charisma for Illusion, and Tradition + Logic for Manipulation (Physical Manipulation), where Tradition means the usual choice of Logic, Intuition, or Charisma depending on your tradition.

UNLIKELY FIXES
* Each type of spellcasting and spirit summoning is a separate skill; you can buy the whole mess of either spellcasting or Summoning as a skill group.
* Mages have to split their Magic between Conjuring and Sorcery, so a guy with Magic 5 could have Magic 0 for one of them and 5 for the other, or 1 and 4, or 2 and 3.


I would like mages to be distinct (there's a good chance of getting several mages in the party based on the gaming group) but not overpowered compared to the other archtypes. I'd also like mages to not suck. I think using both of the Unlikely fixes is going too far, but not using either of them may not go far enough even with combat skills becoming mostly unified.

[Cyberzombie]

Threats 2 shows a dude in powered full plate.

Giant robots grace the covers of Brainscan and SotA: 2063. 3rd edition actually had quite a few covers with Robocop shenanigans on them. If you're willing to accept new stuff, the lady on the front of Dragonfall is literally wearing Master Chief armor.

And of course, numerous covers show characters in attack helicopters or other armored strike vehicles (examples: Rigger 3, Into the Shadows, Arsenal, etc.). And don't forget the number of covers that show a fucking dragon on it, which is basically the same thing and runs from books like Aztlan to Seattle Sourcebook and Corporate Download in between.

Is there any indication these guys are supposed to be shadowrunner PCs though?

In all the fiction I've read through in the books, I haven't seen anything about Shadowrunners leveling city blocks or going Hulk on the local population. And the pictures that portray Shadowrunners show them in armor jackets and lined coats, not military armor.

And in all the Shadowrun TTRPGs I've played in, I've never seen the military playstyle ever used. Maybe there's some military styles that are run that I'm unaware of, but from everything I've read in books like Runner's companion, it seems that keeping a low profile is always heavily encouraged for Shadowrunners. Now maybe I'm just ignorant of some kind of alternative SR playstyle that's developed featuring missions like leveling arcologies to dust and taking out military battleships with Ares vehicle lasers.

I mean, I'm aware military weapons have existed since at least 2nd edition with Fields of Fire, but I've yet to actually see a group that uses that stuff, nor any real support that the gear is something that the designers expect Shadowrunners to be using.

Everything I've read about Shadowrunners has always seemed to encourage them to be a precise instrument for extractions (data or personnel) or assassinations. I've never really seen any indication that you should be getting balls to the wall, mass destruction missions where you leave half of downtown Seattle as a big crater.

[Username17]

Is there any indication these guys are supposed to be shadowrunner PCs though?

What, the guys who grace the front of PC equipment books shown with equipment that PCs can purchase that are in those books? I mean, I suppose they could be NPCs, but I don't understand how that would even make any difference.

The answer to the question of "Have any Shadowrun covers sold the concept of player characters getting heavy weapons, heavy armor, or military vehicles and fighting it out with high end threats like giant robots and dragons?" is simply "Yes." That's really the beginning and end of that particular discussion.

-Username17

[Cyberzombie]

What, the guys who grace the front of PC equipment books shown with equipment that PCs can purchase that are in those books? I mean, I suppose they could be NPCs, but I don't understand how that would even make any difference.

I guess in this case it doesn't, because apparently the style you and a number of other posters want to go with is SR superheroes. I could make some more ultimately pointless arguments, but I'm not going to talk anyone out of what they want to do, which is apparently Scanners versus Gundam versus Raiden from Metal Gear all in the center of downtown Seattle. I personally don't think that fits well with the whole flavor of the setting, but since that style seems to have majority appeal, I'll bow out of this thread and let you guys work on your superheroes game.

[Antumbra]

* Merge Combat Spells and Health Spells into a new category, Life Spells. A tradition's Life Spell spirit is its former Combat Spell spirit.

I wasn't aware that a destructive spray of napalm, metal shards, sand, ice or light had anything to do with Life. As they also do rather interesting things to buildings and drones, it doesn't even work in the "Life implies Death" sense.

* Split Manipulation Spells into Energy Manipulation Spells and Physical Manipulation spells. All mental manipulation spells are Energy manipulation spells as are all other manipulation spells that don't directly manipulate physical things. Physical manipulation spells are things like Turn to Goo, Fashion, or Mist that directly affect Physical things. A tradition's Energy Manipulation spirit is its former Manipulation spirit and it's Energy manipulation is it's former Health spirit.

This is hideous. Just move the spells that shouldn't be in Manipulation out of it. Mind Control goes to Illusion. Ice Slick, Fling, and possibly Levitate go to Combat. If you want to make Combat more distinct, give it Armour, Deflection and Physical/Mana Barrier. Combat meaning "offensive and defensive energy projection" magic is far more justifiable than Life meaning "Healing, Buffing and Explosions".

* Drain is resisted by Tradition + Body for Combat (Life), Tradition + Intuition for Detection, Tradition + Edge for Health (Energy Manipulation), Tradition + Charisma for Illusion, and Tradition + Logic for Manipulation (Physical Manipulation), where Tradition means the usual choice of Logic, Intuition, or Charisma depending on your tradition.

So "replace willpower with edge for all uses, except the most important ones?" That's a huge pain in the ass and really easy to fuck with. Just leave Drain as-is.

[Antumbra]

I guess in this case it doesn't, because apparently the style you and a number of other posters want to go with is SR superheroes. I could make some more ultimately pointless arguments, but I'm not going to talk anyone out of what they want to do, which is apparently Scanners versus Gundam versus Raiden from Metal Gear all in the center of downtown Seattle. I personally don't think that fits well with the whole flavor of the setting, but since that style seems to have majority appeal, I'll bow out of this thread and let you guys work on your superheroes game.

I suppose this could all have been avoided, if you read the part where nobody was talking about the default power level of the game being "superheroes".

Everyone who knows SR knows that the Magician and Mystic Adept, with "enough" karma are the unstoppable terrors of the game.

We're talking about the other archetypes having the ability to spend "enough" karma.

[Username17]

I wasn't aware that a destructive spray of napalm, metal shards, sand, ice or light had anything to do with Life. As they also do rather interesting things to buildings and drones, it doesn't even work in the "Life implies Death" sense.

I agree that "Life" is probably not a great name for the category, but the reality is that Combat spells are a bizarre and terrible category and most of the iconic Combat spells are thematically indistinguishable from Health spells. While the indirect Combat spells are thematically distinct from Heal, literally the last thing the Shadowrun magic system needs is more Manipulation bloat. Frankly, Fireball has always been kind of hard to explain with Shadowrun magic.

Health and Combat are two of the most mandatory schools for a combat mage, but there are only like five spells between them you actually care about. All the others are minor variations. When you look at it objectively, they seriously the shortest suits in the game, and by kind of a lot.

-Username17

[duo31]

@Cyberzombie

There is a difference between Superheroes and Mercenaries. Shadowrun has always supported the idea of running around as Soldiers of Fortune.
You are stuck in an Urban thought loop. Yes, in an urban environment you don't have runners running around in troop carriers (except the armored Bullodog totally is) with military equipment, but in the Jungle, you totally do. South America, Africa, and SE Asia are all places that support this type of play. Seattle or Denver, probably not.

The Shadowrun Card game, which tried to model the TTRPG experience, has as Objectives (runs): Amazonian Hunt, Critter Hunt, Cermak Blast (urban, detonating a nuke in Chicago), Cleanse the Hive (of Bug Spirits, urban), Dragon Hunt (art is urban), Desert Hit, Mystic Testing Grounds, Operation Cottonmouth (run for Mercs).

Fighting crazy awakened critters / spirits is a 'thing' in Shadowrun. And usually involves bringing military scale power to bare.

-duo

[John Magnum]

I'm kind of bummed out that Cyberzombie isn't going to keep arguing from incredulity. "Nobody in my games or the fiction I read actually used these options! How could anyone else think they're possibly a legitimate part of Shadowrun?"

[mlangsdorf]

I wasn't aware that a destructive spray of napalm, metal shards, sand, ice or light had anything to do with Life. As they also do rather interesting things to buildings and drones, it doesn't even work in the "Life implies Death" sense.

I agree that "Life" is probably not a great name for the category, but the reality is that Combat spells are a bizarre and terrible category and most of the iconic Combat spells are thematically indistinguishable from Health spells. While the indirect Combat spells are thematically distinct from Heal, literally the last thing the Shadowrun magic system needs is more Manipulation bloat. Frankly, Fireball has always been kind of hard to explain with Shadowrun magic.

Health and Combat are two of the most mandatory schools for a combat mage, but there are only like five spells between them you actually care about. All the others are minor variations. When you look at it objectively, they seriously the shortest suits in the game, and by kind of a lot.

There are a lot of Manipulation spells. If it makes sense to merge Combat and Health, then something else needs to be split, and Manipulation seems like a prime choice. I wanted to split Mental Manipulation versus Physical Manipulation, but then Mental Manipulation was obviously a tiny spell list and that wasn't want I wanted.

I could try refactoring the spell list to something like:
Life: Mental Manipulation, most Healing spells, manabolt/stun bolt
Force: Physical Manipulation spells dealing with abstract forces (Armor, Ignite) and similar Combat spells (Flamethrower)
Matter: Physical Manipulation spells dealing with objects (Turn to Goo, Ice Sheet)

I don't have a huge stake in the backstory here.

[Seerow]

You could probably cut Manipulation in third. Giving a chunk of it to Combat, a chunk of it to Health, and leave the rest where it is, and end up with 3 distinct and decent schools of magic.

[Username17]

I am genuinely incapable of understanding why "control manipulations" aren't Illusions. Seriously, if someone can tell me the difference between Control Emotions and Overstimulation, it would be the first time someone has been able to do that in a quarter of a century of trying.

-Username17

[mlangsdorf]

Okay, taking Frank's suggestion and doing a quick and dirty triage on the other Combat, Health, and Manipulation spells from Core and Street Magic:

Force Spells: Punch, Clout, Blast, Flamethrower, Fireball, Lighting Bolt, Ball Lightning, Knockout, Stunbolt, Stunball, Armor, Fling, Levitate, Light, Magic Fingers, Mana Barrier, Physical Barrier, Poltergeist, Shadow, Shattershield, Alter Temperature, Astral Armor, Catfall, Clean Element, Element Aura, Element Wall, Interference, Lock, Mana Static, Offensive Mana Barrier, Pulse, Spirit Barrier, Spirit Zapper, Mana Bind, Mana Net

Illusion Spells: Control Actions, Mob Control, Control Emotions, Mob Mood, Control Thoughts, Mob Mind, Influence, Calm Animal, Calm Pack, Compel Truth, Control Animal, Control Pack

Life spells: Death Touch, Manabolt, Manaball, Antidote, Cure Disease, Decrease Attribute, Detox, Heal, Hibernate, Increase Attribute, Increase Reflexes, Oxygenate, Prophylaxis, Resist Pain, Stabilize, Shapechange, One Less Species, Slay Species, Slaughter Species, Alleviate Addiction, Allievate Allergy, Awaken, Crank, Decreate Reflexes, Enabler, Fast, Healthy Glow, Intoxication, Nutrition, Stim, Alter Memory, Sterilize

Matter Spells: Acid Stream, Toxic Wave, Shatter, Powerbolt, Powerball, Ice Sheet, Ignite, Petrify, Turn to Goo, Corrode, Melt, Sludge, Firewater, Napalm, Ram Object, Wreck Object, Demolish Object, Animate (Physical), Bind, Net, Deflection, Fashion, Fix, Gecko Crawl, Glue, Makeover, Mist, Preserve, Reinforce, Shape Material

The only spell I'm really on the fence about is Alter Memory, which maybe should be an Illusion spell except it has a more or less permanent effect and Illusions don't get that.

There's a couple of spells such as Turn to Goo or Napalm that could be two categories at once. I don't hugely care so I'm stuffing them into a single category.

It looks like the spells on Frank's Top 10 list are fairly evenly distributed, which is positive.

[Username17]

The only spell I'm really on the fence about is Alter Memory, which maybe should be an Illusion spell except it has a more or less permanent effect and Illusions don't get that.

Meh. Dream and Orgasm give someone a permanent memory too.

-Username17