How to make Shadowrun less bad

Morat · Post by **Morat** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:22 am

@OgreBattle:
Silly answer, yes, depending on what you mean by "revolver". Serious answer, at the things machine guns are good at, nope. If 100 guys are charging you from 300m away, an average dude with a Maxim is going to cut them to shreds. But someone only carrying a Colt Peacemaker should probably have to be, like, Roland Deschain with extensive cyberware on top...who'd still be better off with a machine gun in that situation.

@Frank:
A) Presumably in a hypothetical 5e-but-not-terrible game, "revolver specialist" would be something like "large dicepool in ranged weapons, pistol specialization, happens to carry a customized revolver" instead of actually being specialized only in revolvers, pistol skill, and useless with SMGs.

B) The gun behavior I'd like to see the game produce is something like Ronin for runners in civilization. DeNiro describes weapons as "a toolbox", and uses a wide variety (assault rifle, grenade launcher, antitank rocket, and LMG, other characters add the shotgun and sniper rifle), but other than the pistol, they're situational. None of them leave the immediate vicinity of the getaway car where they were hidden, and they don't stay in the car when they're not on the high-profile assault part of the mission.

The default weapon is the pistol because you can get them pretty easily, you can take it to many places, and it works fine killing people at the short ranges you find indoors. If you need heavier weapons for more firepower or range, that's fine, but it should probably mean adjusting the plan so you don't walk around in public with them and/or dealing with more heat. I have to figure Lone Star pays more attention to a runner team that uses grenade machine guns than one that uses silenced pistols, let alone Narcoject-loaded Super Squirts and tasers.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:49 am

Korwin wrote:
RelentlessImp wrote:You haven't been paying attention to Kane, then. This is literally his schtick - he is the Ubermensch, High-Level Prime Runner whose runs involve entire cities and mass explosions and sailing away on a yacht full of naked women. This archetype exists in at least one canon Shadowrun character.
What book or is he only an Shadowtalker?

He has longer pieces in a couple of places, though I cannot remember where for the time being. A better example is GingerbreadMan, who gets a whole section in CyberPirates where he rants about stealing military lasers, shooting down helicopters, jumping out of explosions, and fighting dragons while filming himself and sending dick pics to his defeated targets.

-Username17

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:50 pm

Aryxbez wrote:I'm wondering what was to be conveyed by mentioning it, and what idea(s) would want conveyed into Shadowrun rules terms?

None! I literally just meant that the words "Now all we have to worry about is the minigun's ammo and recoil" hits me as funny in the same way that it'd be funny if someone were to say "And now we only have to worry about the mass of the elephant."

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:12 pm

AMMO is a non problem.
60 bullet ammo belt means you get to shoot 4 times before needing to reload.
There's 6 shooter revolvers around, so it's not that much worse.
On a Vehicle/Drone you get a 250 or so ammo bin anyway but can't automagically reload either.
Seeing how Ammo does not have weight anymore since SR4, you can carry some belts in your backpack. If you carry the Minigun then THAT is the smallest of your problems.
The only REAL PROBLEM in terms of useability of a Minigun is the fucking bullshit insane Recoil . . if you have not a single point of recoil compensation, then that's 30 points of recoil! THIRTY! NOTHING HAS THAT MUCH!
HVAR do NOT count as HEAVY WEAPONS, so they DON'T get DOUBLED RECOIL!

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:43 pm

The SR rules for auto weapons are insane. I think we all agree. So can you not base your arguments on how easy it is to use miniguns that fire 100 rounds a second on the insane SR rules where they fire 5 rounds per second when run by a normal person?

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:10 pm

Korwin wrote:
RelentlessImp wrote:You haven't been paying attention to Kane, then. This is literally his schtick - he is the Ubermensch, High-Level Prime Runner whose runs involve entire cities and mass explosions and sailing away on a yacht full of naked women. This archetype exists in at least one canon Shadowrun character.
What book or is he only an Shadowtalker?

'

He has a write-up in Vice. No stats, but it's strongly suggested, via shadowtalk and that write-up, that he is on par with FastJack and Bull and all the other Prime Runners. I completely forgot about GingerbreadMan too, I need to get my earlier edition books back.

I think the vast majority of people complaining about 'tone' forget that Mirrorshades and Trenchcoats is not the only valid playstyle of Shadowrun, because Pink Mohawk exists, both as a style of play and as an in-world thing that happens. The setting's baseline suggests somewhere between the two.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:56 pm

RelentlessImp wrote: He has a write-up in Vice. No stats

He "might" have a statblock in "Street Legends Supplemental (p.14?)", a book my shadowrun group has, I'll check it out at some point if nobody else has. Also, his writeup is on page 166 in Vice, I found this bit:

Kane strikes fast, relying on unpredictability and surprise. His jobs often involve considerable advance planning, as he must take into account how the target thinks in order to maximize surprise. Once he has obtained his objective, his exits are generally just as surprising as his initial entries

So, he's basically a Shadowrunner by the sounds of way he does things.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:01 pm

Aryxbez wrote:
Kane strikes fast, relying on unpredictability and surprise. His jobs often involve considerable advance planning, as he must take into account how the target thinks in order to maximize surprise. Once he has obtained his objective, his exits are generally just as surprising as his initial entries
So, he's basically a Shadowrunner by the sounds of way he does things.

Well, yes. The point of this is there are shadowrunners who have all sorts of tactics. Kane's just happens to be the high-profile, explosive type - as evidenced by a little bit below where you quoted. Please stop half-quoting things.

Once he has obtained his objective, his exits are generally just as surprising as his initial entries; he may destroy the whole facility, or leave something behind that can keep security forces occupied while he slips away. He doesn’t mind leaving his crew behind, as they rarely have any information he doesn’t want Interpol to know.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:50 pm

He is basically the Jack Sparrow Shadowrunner . .
Even if GingerBreadMan the Pirate might be a better fit.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:57 pm

Thing with Shadowrun is that the setting always suggested that you you can drive from Greenwich to Barter Town on one tank of gas.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:00 pm

It's a lie.
Barter Town is in Australia.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:52 am

Tunnels, maybe.

Bridges might have an awakened fish problem.

EDIT: Awakened is the term for when something has magi, right?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:59 am

hai.
and there's all kinds of awakened stuff.
animals, rocks, plants and sapients . . .

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:24 am

"Help! We're under attack by awakened gravel!"

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:27 am

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:56 am

Wow, the coneheads got buff since the 80s

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:15 am

RelentlessImp wrote: Please stop half-quoting things.

I didn't realize "half-quoting" was a thing I do commonly, or known for? Nor did I realize it was something that...mattered at all. In fact, the quotes thereafter sound like my Shadowrun group. Though given I was mentioning something rather obvious, I felt to bring it up as it seemed nifty to mention (though I guess it sounded like I was giving it a negative connotation). I'm going to assume if he does have a statblock, it probably is going to make him suck, and thusly would hurt discussion to mention it here no?

There has been talk that Shadowrun needs to "abstract ammo" I believe? Not sure how many would be "for' that, though I do wonder how ye would go about it? Otherwise, don't think gonna get Miniguns that fire their actual 100's of round a second.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:30 am

There has been talk that Shadowrun needs to "abstract ammo" I believe? Not sure how many would be "for' that, though I do wonder how ye would go about it?

In my group we typically pay for enough rounds to cover 50 passes of firing as fast as possible at the start of the game, and then ignore it from that point on. So for your typical Ares Alpha, you're looking at buying 500 rounds of ammo. For a mini gun, 750 rounds of ammo. For a SA weapon, 100 rounds. For a BF weapon, 300 rounds.

Probably not an ideal setup, and sitting down to actually update the system will almost certainly generate something better. But it is a fair enough starting point.

RelentlessImp · Post by **RelentlessImp** » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:51 am

Aryxbez wrote:
RelentlessImp wrote: Please stop half-quoting things.
I didn't realize "half-quoting" was a thing I do commonly, or known for? Nor did I realize it was something that...mattered at all. In fact, the quotes thereafter sound like my Shadowrun group. Though given I was mentioning something rather obvious, I felt to bring it up as it seemed nifty to mention (though I guess it sounded like I was giving it a negative connotation). I'm going to assume if he does have a statblock, it probably is going to make him suck, and thusly would hurt discussion to mention it here no?

Sorry, half-quoting to make a point (that is, quote what supports your argument, ignore the rest especially if it is in direct opposition to it) is just something that sticks in my craw (primarily because it's used by dishonest fucks), and I thought you were following along with the thread of "Shadowrun doesn't support high-octane action characters", which I was refuting. Didn't mean to come off as dickish.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:20 am

RelentlessImp wrote:and I thought you were following along with the thread of "Shadowrun doesn't support high-octane action characters", which I was refuting.

Oh Frag no, Street Samurai are my favorite Shadowrun Archtype (though I do like how flavorful magic can be), and like my favoring of warrior-types in general, I'm all for them getting an end-game path. So it's all good, and I understand well the dislike of arguing dishonestly, far as I know, I don't use half-quoting in that manner, nor have I done so.

Any case, the Street legends Supplemental didn't have the statblock to Kane at all (despite being a book all about bunch of Shadowrun celebrity NPC's now with statblocks). Seems the other sources I checked on his wiki article don't either. I suppose it's probably for the best he doesn't, given how bad the designers probably are at making powerful characters (even when/if inserting custom content for the NPC's,like A vampire gets a foci that ADDS Essence). However, I did find this one quote in Ghost Cartels pg34 that adds to his importance:

Angered-Ares by... wrote:[Kane] I was house-sitting Damien Knight’s castle in the Thousand Islands when I set his favorite Persian rug on fire trying to get a wine stain out

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:35 am

Just watched Robocop 1 again, what a great movie. It shows a nice divide between street weapons (pistols, SMG's, shotguns) that can't hurt robocop at all, some swat weapons (assault rifles) that can dink robocop if enough shoot at him, and then military assault cannons (some kind of grenade launcher) that can 1-shot a civilian car and 2-shot ED209.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:45 am

The Cobra Assault Cannon.
Which is what the PANTHER Assault Cannon in Shadowrun is modeled on.
And the COBRA Assault Cannon is modeled on the .50 BMG Sniper Rifle Barret.

Cochise · Post by **Cochise** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:02 pm

Stahlseele wrote:The Cobra Assault Cannon.

Correct ...

Stahlseele wrote:Which is what the PANTHER Assault Cannon in Shadowrun is modeled on.

Incorrect. The Panther Assault Cannon - despite its quite obvious "rip-off" name - optically is certainly not modeled on either Cobra Assault Cannon or the latter's real world counterpart. If anything the Panther looks like a crazy hybrid between a hand held grenade launcher like the M79 with a (a potentially non-functional) bullpup magazine (it's explictly mentioned as beltfed in the Street Samurai Catalog and IIRC in later publications as well) and a slim, fixed shoulder stock instead of the more conventional rifle stock like the one the M79 normally has. The picture of the Panther even includes some details that suggest that the heavy barrel has a joint that allows opening the Panther just like the M79.

Stahlseele wrote:And the COBRA Assault Cannon is modeled on the .50 BMG Sniper Rifle Barret.

Not quite correct either. The "COBRA Assault Cannon" was not modeled on/after the .50 Barret BMG Sniper Rifle. It actually was nothing but a 0.50 Barret Sniper Rifle with a slight recoloring and a very select few plastic addons (mainly the scopes) . Compared to what they did to the Barreta 93R to get Robo's "Auto 9" the changes were negligible.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:31 pm

Cochise wrote:Not quite correct either. The "COBRA Assault Cannon" was not modeled on/after the .50 Barret BMG Sniper Rifle. It actually was nothing but a 0.50 Barret Sniper Rifle with a slight recoloring and a very select few plastic addons (mainly the scopes) . Compared to what they did to the Barreta 93R to get Robo's "Auto 9" the changes were negligible.

That is what "modeled on" means.

Cochise · Post by **Cochise** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:00 pm

A Man In Black wrote:That is what "modeled on" means.

Your mileage may vary there then, but to me things that are "modeled on something" are either built "as models" (or props) of an actual item or they represent some sort of distincitive evolution where important features of the original item serve as "model" to create something new (the "Auto 9" would fit that bill far better). Now the "Cobras" - at least as far as I can remember the background info concerning the making of Robocop were actually "the real deal": Repainted Barrets with fancy looking scopes. And in my book that doesn't quite count as being "modeled on".