No, what I have must be the original version. I'm going to see if I can't get a copy of the revised edition so I can see if they actually fixed anything.For what it matters for the purpose of this review, are you using the "Revised Edition" of the game at all? I'm not sure what all they changed, but apparently they added a table for all the superpowers, and a system for making classes in the game (safe to say adds up pt-wise, but not balance wise).
Review: BESM d20
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Review: BESM d20
BESM3e is a roll over system. BESM2e, BESM1e, and Tri Stat dX were the roll under variants in which your scenario would be true.Koumei wrote:3Ed BESM is a lot better than the older ones, but that isn't really saying anything. It was a roll-under system using 2d6 and without using houserules or supplements, you ended up with this scenario:
Player: okay, my Attacking is 15, so I roll... 4, yep, I hit.
DM: okay, its Defence is 14, so it rolls... 11, yep it dodges.
(Repeat for all eternity)
But the GoO game came out before anyone had ever heard of the franchise.FrankTrollman wrote: Game of Thrones is like a license to print money. But only if you can actually hire someone to work the printing presses.
I remember standing in Barnes and Noble, flipping through the deluxe edition of GoO's Game of Thrones RPG (the one with both Tri Stat and d20 rules). I remember just putting it back on the shelf thinking it was yet another generic fantasy game. I know it's just the RPG Hoarder in me, but I still kick myself a bit for not buying that one.
BESM d20 didn't go over well. The Tri Stat crowd didn't want it. Hell, the Tri Stat crowd didn't even want dX, much less a d20 game. That group of players (and I included myself as part of their team) didn't want something they perceived as a d20 cash grab.
It didn't do any better on the d20 side of the spectrum. This thread probably resurrects many of their old reasons for that sentiment. It wasn't the kind of product the d20 crowd wanted. The fact that it kind of thumbed its nose at d20 certainly didn't endear it to d20 fans.
Me? I thought it wasn't all that great. But at that time I was so pissed off about gaming and so up my ass with gaming message board antics that my primary gauge of whether a game was good or not was the answer to the question, "Is it better than a Palladium product."
To it's credit, yes, BESM d20 was better than a Palladium product. But if that isn't the most backhanded compliment ever, I don't know what is.
Now, I didn't hate BESM d20. In truth, I kind of liked it. It does have a philosophy similar to what I use and that works for me. It gives me some tools and leaves me to my own devices. Firstly, I don't think it was ever intended to be used as a class based system. The classes are just sort of there, and only to provide a touchstone to d20 players used to seeing classes. Once you quit trying to use the game as a class based system and just start looking at it as a pure point build system a lot of problems go away. It goes further than that, though. The system isn't even really a point build system. It's just an eyeball-shit-with-the-game-terms-we've-provided system. The points are just there as the vaguest of guidelines and if you really want to do the math. And that kind of thing can work for certain kinds of gamers.
But BESM d20 just doesn't work well even with that assumption. It's just a hair to clunky for its own good. It's definitely a Magical Tea Party system, but it isn't an agile one. It's burdened with an entirely different and diametrically opposed philosophy which just gets in the way.
Now, I'm not trying to defend BESMd20 to anyone. It's clear that for the people posting in this thread it was not a good system match to their preferences. Even I didn't think it was very good, leading me to discard it years ago. However, it is one of the few RPG books I discarded which I kind of miss.
It didn't do any better on the d20 side of the spectrum. This thread probably resurrects many of their old reasons for that sentiment. It wasn't the kind of product the d20 crowd wanted. The fact that it kind of thumbed its nose at d20 certainly didn't endear it to d20 fans.
Me? I thought it wasn't all that great. But at that time I was so pissed off about gaming and so up my ass with gaming message board antics that my primary gauge of whether a game was good or not was the answer to the question, "Is it better than a Palladium product."
To it's credit, yes, BESM d20 was better than a Palladium product. But if that isn't the most backhanded compliment ever, I don't know what is.
Now, I didn't hate BESM d20. In truth, I kind of liked it. It does have a philosophy similar to what I use and that works for me. It gives me some tools and leaves me to my own devices. Firstly, I don't think it was ever intended to be used as a class based system. The classes are just sort of there, and only to provide a touchstone to d20 players used to seeing classes. Once you quit trying to use the game as a class based system and just start looking at it as a pure point build system a lot of problems go away. It goes further than that, though. The system isn't even really a point build system. It's just an eyeball-shit-with-the-game-terms-we've-provided system. The points are just there as the vaguest of guidelines and if you really want to do the math. And that kind of thing can work for certain kinds of gamers.
But BESM d20 just doesn't work well even with that assumption. It's just a hair to clunky for its own good. It's definitely a Magical Tea Party system, but it isn't an agile one. It's burdened with an entirely different and diametrically opposed philosophy which just gets in the way.
Now, I'm not trying to defend BESMd20 to anyone. It's clear that for the people posting in this thread it was not a good system match to their preferences. Even I didn't think it was very good, leading me to discard it years ago. However, it is one of the few RPG books I discarded which I kind of miss.
Sorry, I should have added an entire additional sentence in there. "I ran a 2Ed (Revised? Can't remember) game of BESM once, and it really was bad in a way that 3Ed fixed."Gabriel wrote: BESM3e is a roll over system. BESM2e, BESM1e, and Tri Stat dX were the roll under variants in which your scenario would be true.
Not that 3Ed was still actually a balanced or coherent game, and it still blames the player for problems with the system and says not to use the rules. But it was a huge step up from 2Ed in the way that the third edition of a game usually is. And that particular problem did go away.
All I've really used besm d20 for was to steal the "Yeah, you can spend this much XP on increasing an ability score or gaining a feat" for use in other games, where I'd let players do it as a sort of patch-up for meeting annoying requirements or to help pad out a character that is a bit underpowered and could pull their weight with just a small extra something. And there's totally a cost there in XP! (In a game where people level up "when it's time to level up" and actual XP is really just there for crafting and shit.)
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?717 ... st17843544
Someone wants to use Anime d20 SRD to "revive" Besm d20.
Someone wants to use Anime d20 SRD to "revive" Besm d20.
☆ *World games are shit ☆ M&M is shit ☆ Fate fans gave me cancer ☆
More Classes
Gun Bunny
As someone noted above this class gets improved initiative twice for some reason, once at 1st level and again at 20th. I'm not sure if that is just a typo or improved initiative is supposed to stack with itself or what.
So the Giant Robot was, aside from flight, essentially just a crappy fighter. The Gun Bunny continues this theme, with a d8 hit die, good BAB, good reflex saves and 4 skill points/level, and essentially a bunch of fighter bonus feats as class features. Improved initiative is all they get at 1st level. At 2nd level and several other levels they get a rank in "divine relationship". This sounds a lot more awesome than it is, it basically lets you reroll every so often. How often? Depends on whether mister cavern likes you:
At 3rd level and various others they get massive damage. At 4th level they get a feat called "blind-shoot" which is just blind-fighting for ranged weapons. At 5th level they get a feat called portable armoury. Through some variety of handwaving (presumably the player gets to pick) they always have access to whatever weapon they need as long as they actually own that weapon. They can also make any sort of gear modifications in a single round. Honestly it seems like this should just be a genre convention, not an actual ability players can purchase, but whatever.
At 8th level they get a feat called judge opponent which gives them a vague understanding of any opponent's combat abilities. At 10th level and a couple others they get ranks in defensive combat mastery which just gives AC bonuses. At 12th level they get a feat called steady hand. Basically this game gives you penalties to hit while moving fast, steady hand reduces them. At 15th level they get a feat called accuracy which reduces penalties from stunts like called shots and ricocheting bullets.
At 16th level they get two-weapon fighting. I have no idea why all gun users suddenly learn to dual-wield at 16th level, or how this is supposed to mean anything when Dynamic Sorcerers have access to 7th level spells, but it is notable that this is the last real ability Gun Bunnies get.
To sum up, this class is just a fighter with preselected feats, also known as a waste of a page.
Hot Rod
So this is a class for someone who rides a motorcycle or drives a car (yes that is apparently a class). They have medium BAB, a d8 hit die, good reflex saves, 4 skill points/level and very little ability to contribute to the game. Their 1st level ability is personal gear (car); I'm not sure why it specifies car when the guy in the picture has a motorcycle so I'm assuming car translates to "non-military land vehicle" or something. Personal gear is a very handwavy way of giving your character various items that are useful but not covered by other attributes; it also isn't supposed to be used for things that your characters are just expected to have in the setting, like cell phones in the modern day (I'm not clear on why this doesn't include cars). Basically like the features ability I discussed for the Giant Robot, except instead of being something innate it is something you own. Like features I think it makes sense for a rules lite point-buy system, but it seems rather out of place in d20.
At 2nd level they get mechanical genius which allows them to modify their gear. How this works is very vague, higher ranks let you modify gear faster but I can't find any rules for how long it should take normally.
At 3rd level they the attributes flunkies and item of power (car related). Flunkies basically covers the followers part of the leadership feat; apparently all Hot Rods have motorcycle gangs. The most notable issue here is that flunkies come in two flavors, those that fight and those that don't, and this class doesn't actually specify which you are supposed to get. Item of power gives you a certain number of character points to buy whatever attributes you want; for every 3-4 character points you spend you get 5 points to spend on your item. This is supposed to be balanced by the fact that you can lose the item; for 3 character points/rank the item is easy to lose and for 4 it is hard to lose. Again the class doesn't specify which variant to use.
At 4th level they get organizational ties (as well as more personal gear (car)). This is a very handwavy ability covering various perks from being a member of a powerful organization (see the discussion on features and personal gear). This ability is supposed to cost a different amount depending on the organization's power, but of course the class doesn't specify which version you get or what kind of organization you are supposed to join.
Hot Rods also get divine relationship, as well as the steady hand feat, improved initiative, and defensive combat mastery at various levels. At 8th level they get aura of command and wealth. Aura of command is quite possibly the most stupid ability I have ever seen printed in an RPG; it is the ability to convince your allies and subordinates not to run away when they are scared, so presumably if you don't have this ability your friends are supposed to abandon you constantly. Wealth is another handwavy attribute representing the fact that you are rich.
So the takeaway is that Hot Rods have basically no driving related abilities but instead have various vague and handwavy abilities that make them Yakuza/Mafioso.
Martial Artist
I'm skipping Magical Girl for now so I can quickly hit yet another class that might as well be a fighter: the Martial Artist. They have a d10 hit die, good BAB, good reflex and will saves, and 2 skill points/level. At 1st level they get +2 to attack and AC when fighting unarmed and this is pretty representative of what they get over 20 levels. At second level and various other levels they get massive damage (unarmed strikes only), which as you recall just gives extra damage. Like the Gun Bunny they get improved initiative twice for some reason, as well as the judge opponent and blind-fight feats and defence combat mastery.
At 5th level they get the speed attribute. Like flight this is expressed in miles per hour for some reason. Oddly enough this isn't just moving very fast, it also gives you bonuses to initiative and the ability to do normal things very fast (eg speed reading); naturally this is very handwavy. Not sure why learning karate gives you super speed, but whatever.
The only other thing this class gets is an attribute called special attack. I might discuss this more fully later, basically it is a point buy system for creating attacks that do more than just damage. The most important thing to note right now is that the Martial Artist gets too few ranks for it to actually do anything interesting, though it is easy to make a cheesy attack with it.
As someone noted above this class gets improved initiative twice for some reason, once at 1st level and again at 20th. I'm not sure if that is just a typo or improved initiative is supposed to stack with itself or what.
So the Giant Robot was, aside from flight, essentially just a crappy fighter. The Gun Bunny continues this theme, with a d8 hit die, good BAB, good reflex saves and 4 skill points/level, and essentially a bunch of fighter bonus feats as class features. Improved initiative is all they get at 1st level. At 2nd level and several other levels they get a rank in "divine relationship". This sounds a lot more awesome than it is, it basically lets you reroll every so often. How often? Depends on whether mister cavern likes you:
It also doesn't specify whether you get to see the result of your roll before you decide to reroll. I guess this ability is supposed to represent the ridiculous luck action heroes have in gun fights.The Rank dictates the number of times dice can be re-rolled in a single role-playing session, though the GM can alter this time frame as desired.
At 3rd level and various others they get massive damage. At 4th level they get a feat called "blind-shoot" which is just blind-fighting for ranged weapons. At 5th level they get a feat called portable armoury. Through some variety of handwaving (presumably the player gets to pick) they always have access to whatever weapon they need as long as they actually own that weapon. They can also make any sort of gear modifications in a single round. Honestly it seems like this should just be a genre convention, not an actual ability players can purchase, but whatever.
At 8th level they get a feat called judge opponent which gives them a vague understanding of any opponent's combat abilities. At 10th level and a couple others they get ranks in defensive combat mastery which just gives AC bonuses. At 12th level they get a feat called steady hand. Basically this game gives you penalties to hit while moving fast, steady hand reduces them. At 15th level they get a feat called accuracy which reduces penalties from stunts like called shots and ricocheting bullets.
At 16th level they get two-weapon fighting. I have no idea why all gun users suddenly learn to dual-wield at 16th level, or how this is supposed to mean anything when Dynamic Sorcerers have access to 7th level spells, but it is notable that this is the last real ability Gun Bunnies get.
To sum up, this class is just a fighter with preselected feats, also known as a waste of a page.
Hot Rod
So this is a class for someone who rides a motorcycle or drives a car (yes that is apparently a class). They have medium BAB, a d8 hit die, good reflex saves, 4 skill points/level and very little ability to contribute to the game. Their 1st level ability is personal gear (car); I'm not sure why it specifies car when the guy in the picture has a motorcycle so I'm assuming car translates to "non-military land vehicle" or something. Personal gear is a very handwavy way of giving your character various items that are useful but not covered by other attributes; it also isn't supposed to be used for things that your characters are just expected to have in the setting, like cell phones in the modern day (I'm not clear on why this doesn't include cars). Basically like the features ability I discussed for the Giant Robot, except instead of being something innate it is something you own. Like features I think it makes sense for a rules lite point-buy system, but it seems rather out of place in d20.
At 2nd level they get mechanical genius which allows them to modify their gear. How this works is very vague, higher ranks let you modify gear faster but I can't find any rules for how long it should take normally.
At 3rd level they the attributes flunkies and item of power (car related). Flunkies basically covers the followers part of the leadership feat; apparently all Hot Rods have motorcycle gangs. The most notable issue here is that flunkies come in two flavors, those that fight and those that don't, and this class doesn't actually specify which you are supposed to get. Item of power gives you a certain number of character points to buy whatever attributes you want; for every 3-4 character points you spend you get 5 points to spend on your item. This is supposed to be balanced by the fact that you can lose the item; for 3 character points/rank the item is easy to lose and for 4 it is hard to lose. Again the class doesn't specify which variant to use.
At 4th level they get organizational ties (as well as more personal gear (car)). This is a very handwavy ability covering various perks from being a member of a powerful organization (see the discussion on features and personal gear). This ability is supposed to cost a different amount depending on the organization's power, but of course the class doesn't specify which version you get or what kind of organization you are supposed to join.
Hot Rods also get divine relationship, as well as the steady hand feat, improved initiative, and defensive combat mastery at various levels. At 8th level they get aura of command and wealth. Aura of command is quite possibly the most stupid ability I have ever seen printed in an RPG; it is the ability to convince your allies and subordinates not to run away when they are scared, so presumably if you don't have this ability your friends are supposed to abandon you constantly. Wealth is another handwavy attribute representing the fact that you are rich.
So the takeaway is that Hot Rods have basically no driving related abilities but instead have various vague and handwavy abilities that make them Yakuza/Mafioso.
Martial Artist
I'm skipping Magical Girl for now so I can quickly hit yet another class that might as well be a fighter: the Martial Artist. They have a d10 hit die, good BAB, good reflex and will saves, and 2 skill points/level. At 1st level they get +2 to attack and AC when fighting unarmed and this is pretty representative of what they get over 20 levels. At second level and various other levels they get massive damage (unarmed strikes only), which as you recall just gives extra damage. Like the Gun Bunny they get improved initiative twice for some reason, as well as the judge opponent and blind-fight feats and defence combat mastery.
At 5th level they get the speed attribute. Like flight this is expressed in miles per hour for some reason. Oddly enough this isn't just moving very fast, it also gives you bonuses to initiative and the ability to do normal things very fast (eg speed reading); naturally this is very handwavy. Not sure why learning karate gives you super speed, but whatever.
The only other thing this class gets is an attribute called special attack. I might discuss this more fully later, basically it is a point buy system for creating attacks that do more than just damage. The most important thing to note right now is that the Martial Artist gets too few ranks for it to actually do anything interesting, though it is easy to make a cheesy attack with it.
Last edited by Drolyt on Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
DECONSTRUCTION OF THE d20 SYSTEM FANTASY CLASSES
There seems to be a malfunction with GoO's Caps lock key. This section appears at the end of the chapter on classes and talks about using D&D classes in BESM d20. It doesn't give rules for converting the classes or anything like that, I guess you are supposed to just do that yourself. Instead we have this:
Basically this did nothing to balance anything. At best the fighter types could get something cheesy from the point system that allows them to compete, at worst they don't even get enough to replace the magic items they don't get in this system.
That's actually not horrible, although they don't apply this logic to any of their own classes. The problem is withThe Problem
Although some d20 System advocates may disagree, we do not believe that the standard fantasy classes are balanced well. In particular, the spellcasting classes are more powerful and versatile than the others. That's not to say that a Fighter or Rogue can't take down a Wizard of the same Level in specific circumstances. Indeed, in their respective areas of expertise, the classes have their own unique advantages. When examining the entire range of character activity tough, spellcasters clearly have the upper hand.
Yeah, they fucked this one up pretty hard. Basically they fudged the numbers so that none of the full spellcasting classes get any extra points, because obviously sorcerers and wizards are balanced. That is forgiveable though. What is not is that monks only get 3 extra character points at 14th level, presumably because of all the awesome abilities monks get. Fighters on the other hand get 28, which actually helps them a bit (maybe they could spend them on item of power in order to get their artifact sword) as well as eliminating their dead levels. Through what I can only assume is a misprint rangers get 12 character points at 3rd level for a total of 37, making them a great 3 level dip. Rogues get 20 extra character points because obviously they needed a lot of help to compete with monks.The Solution
We needed to assign every talent, effect, and power listed in the class Level progressions a Character Point value before we could balance the classes. By comparing the class abilities with Attributes that exhibit similar effects, we could better understand the relative power levels of each class. Over 20 Levels, the more powerful classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, etc.) were on par with the new BESM d20 classes. For the other classes, additional Character Points were built into their progression to increase their breadth and depth and achieve balance.
Basically this did nothing to balance anything. At best the fighter types could get something cheesy from the point system that allows them to compete, at worst they don't even get enough to replace the magic items they don't get in this system.
Last edited by Drolyt on Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: DECONSTRUCTION OF THE d20 SYSTEM FANTASY CLASSES
Actually, they do in the REVISED edition (check your PMs), just of course, that system is crap and doesn't really have the solution they want it to have. The moment they placed BaB with a 3pt multiplier of importance, you know their class creation system doesn't really work.Drolyt wrote:This section appears at the end of the chapter on classes and talks about using D&D classes in BESM d20. It doesn't give rules for converting the classes or anything like that, I guess you are supposed to just do that yourself.
Far as the classes go, it seems they assume you use the lowest value for Organization, & Flunkies abilities, my post on listing of the classes in the point system "might" help alleviate those questions a little?
Apparently the edition I have Nerfed all the D&D classes, as I'm finding nothing of the sort that makes Rangers a better level dip than Adventurer's 5pts.Through what I can only assume is a misprint rangers get 12 character points at 3rd level for a total of 37, making them a great 3 level dip.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
The Monk suffers from the problem that it's a point-buy game where every ability costs some amount of points, and they have heaps of useless abilities that still individually cost points.
I mean, the Monk suffers from a lot of problems, but that problem is the reason why they basically don't get bonus points.
I mean, the Monk suffers from a lot of problems, but that problem is the reason why they basically don't get bonus points.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Re: DECONSTRUCTION OF THE d20 SYSTEM FANTASY CLASSES
It does give some insight into what they were thinking, but doesn't make it any less awful.Aryxbez wrote:Actually, they do in the REVISED edition (check your PMs), just of course, that system is crap and doesn't really have the solution they want it to have. The moment they placed BaB with a 3pt multiplier of importance, you know their class creation system doesn't really work.Drolyt wrote:This section appears at the end of the chapter on classes and talks about using D&D classes in BESM d20. It doesn't give rules for converting the classes or anything like that, I guess you are supposed to just do that yourself.
Far as the classes go, it seems they assume you use the lowest value for Organization, & Flunkies abilities, my post on listing of the classes in the point system "might" help alleviate those questions a little?
Yeah, they fixed the typo.Apparently the edition I have Nerfed all the D&D classes, as I'm finding nothing of the sort that makes Rangers a better level dip than Adventurer's 5pts.Through what I can only assume is a misprint rangers get 12 character points at 3rd level for a total of 37, making them a great 3 level dip.
Didn't stop them from fudging the costs of full casters so they all came out the same in the end, I'm not sure why they couldn't do the same for the monk.Koumei wrote:The Monk suffers from the problem that it's a point-buy game where every ability costs some amount of points, and they have heaps of useless abilities that still individually cost points.
I mean, the Monk suffers from a lot of problems, but that problem is the reason why they basically don't get bonus points.
Re: What is BESM?
That is a story in the sense that it is fictional.GnomeWorks wrote:They got boned for copyright infringement. They did some weird combination anime/game guides for a few shows, and apparently didn't have the rights for one of them, I think. They didn't have the financial ability to withstand the lawsuit, so they folded.
At least, that's the story I heard. Been a long time, obviously.
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GnomeWorks
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Re: What is BESM?
As I mentioned, it's what I'd heard. Glancing in this thread a few times, I keep trying to remember where I heard it, and getting pretty much nothing. I really have no idea where I would've heard it, or ran with it as true, as this was... what, almost ten years ago?adamjury wrote:That is a story in the sense that it is fictional.
I'm down with admitting I was incorrect. It happens.
Re: What is BESM?
I don't think this is the place for you.GnomeWorks wrote:I'm down with admitting I was incorrect.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
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GnomeWorks
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Re: What is BESM?
You have no idea how many times I've heard that line.Koumei wrote:I don't think this is the place for you.
Mecha Pilot
So least this class's 1st level feature is a big eight pointer, though it gives you a pretty dinky robot by base rules (D20 Mecha supplement can make a pretty damn powerful contraption with just two ranks). As it can probably guess, they'll likely have resources spent on having a robot that can smash things, and won't be good for too much else, save some tech-based obstacle? Their Skill list focuses so on mecha, that it doesn't really leave any room for personal ability, like fighting, stealth, or even social abilities. They'll have some "social" ability by rallying random people to do stuff I guess. They'll also gain "Organisational Ties" that of importance/value seems to be on the lowest end, based on how the points add up at the end.
I'm surprised, out of an MTP perspective, this class is kinda awful, though I guess you could make a SUPER FIGHTING ROBOT with good enough superpowers to not be awful at start (Rank 2 OBM via Mecha D20 sourcebook can get you 5d20 melee attacks easily enough).
Ninja
It seems to have a mess of abilities, and doesn't have any real offence til 3rd level where it gets Sneak Attack...which is a feat. So I guess irregardless to the class, you could just spend 2pts to wrack up some D6's (3/8/13/18 lv progression). At 1st level, they can jump+20, Personal swag, though they do have good Ref/Will, 3/4 BaB & average HP, so their chasis is alright at least, and also "another" class that has Improved Init twice (no, feat entry doesn't mention any stacking, but this error stops at the samurai at least!). Once jumping like 50ft has stopped being important, they gain Teleport at 7th! though limited by 30ft without a check (1mile otherwise), and start gaining other minor superpowers (controlling shadows 8th, Zone of Silence at 15th?).
DIGIMON Pet Monster Trainer
A Good Will Save and the rest of their chasis is balls (least they can skillfully Gamble Play Children's card games). I feel like this class is somewhat in a similar court to the Mecha Pilot, but since they get their mainstay feature every other level, monstrous flesh will quickly outpace the robot. The Pet in question has Adventurer class chasis, but never levels, and starts w/40pts at rank 1 (making it as capable or moreso, than a starting PC out of the gate), with their seeming to be no real limit to the number of ranks you can put this power at, while Mecha has 6 ranks. Though I imagine have to tax some of those pts to making sure the pets numbers are level (in)appropriate at all times, though I guess can also spend it on having "multiple" pets as well (that'll likely suck or be relegated to a niche use), but it mostly seems to encourage the notion of sticking to one Pet like Digimon, or having a super Pikachu.
I would think can probably just end the class there on just its super monster alone, but they do get "Train A Cute Monster" which the options to choose from can be useful (in their respective Pet-land of course). Such as knowing HP/BaB of a pet, 1/Enc Force a trainer to lose -4EP, you +4EP (which can be a low level TKO/Save & suck effect to those without extra EP), disease immunity/double-heal for HP/EP, Full-Heal HP for -4EP or +2atk/def, 14-24hr +1 def buff, +4 init by shouting orders at pet, and DC 20 Int check to know any Pokemon Pet setting stuff ever.
Thing about Energy Points
Oh, and an addendum for the Martial Artists 1st level ability, it's worse. As it's actually them gaining Two RANKS in Unarmed Attack & defence respectively. So it's basically them gaining a 1pt superpower that gives +4sp...yes..a generic +2 atk/damage would've actually been BETTER.[/spoiler]
So least this class's 1st level feature is a big eight pointer, though it gives you a pretty dinky robot by base rules (D20 Mecha supplement can make a pretty damn powerful contraption with just two ranks). As it can probably guess, they'll likely have resources spent on having a robot that can smash things, and won't be good for too much else, save some tech-based obstacle? Their Skill list focuses so on mecha, that it doesn't really leave any room for personal ability, like fighting, stealth, or even social abilities. They'll have some "social" ability by rallying random people to do stuff I guess. They'll also gain "Organisational Ties" that of importance/value seems to be on the lowest end, based on how the points add up at the end.
I'm surprised, out of an MTP perspective, this class is kinda awful, though I guess you could make a SUPER FIGHTING ROBOT with good enough superpowers to not be awful at start (Rank 2 OBM via Mecha D20 sourcebook can get you 5d20 melee attacks easily enough).
Ninja
It seems to have a mess of abilities, and doesn't have any real offence til 3rd level where it gets Sneak Attack...which is a feat. So I guess irregardless to the class, you could just spend 2pts to wrack up some D6's (3/8/13/18 lv progression). At 1st level, they can jump+20, Personal swag, though they do have good Ref/Will, 3/4 BaB & average HP, so their chasis is alright at least, and also "another" class that has Improved Init twice (no, feat entry doesn't mention any stacking, but this error stops at the samurai at least!). Once jumping like 50ft has stopped being important, they gain Teleport at 7th! though limited by 30ft without a check (1mile otherwise), and start gaining other minor superpowers (controlling shadows 8th, Zone of Silence at 15th?).
DIGIMON Pet Monster Trainer
A Good Will Save and the rest of their chasis is balls (least they can skillfully Gamble Play Children's card games). I feel like this class is somewhat in a similar court to the Mecha Pilot, but since they get their mainstay feature every other level, monstrous flesh will quickly outpace the robot. The Pet in question has Adventurer class chasis, but never levels, and starts w/40pts at rank 1 (making it as capable or moreso, than a starting PC out of the gate), with their seeming to be no real limit to the number of ranks you can put this power at, while Mecha has 6 ranks. Though I imagine have to tax some of those pts to making sure the pets numbers are level (in)appropriate at all times, though I guess can also spend it on having "multiple" pets as well (that'll likely suck or be relegated to a niche use), but it mostly seems to encourage the notion of sticking to one Pet like Digimon, or having a super Pikachu.
I would think can probably just end the class there on just its super monster alone, but they do get "Train A Cute Monster" which the options to choose from can be useful (in their respective Pet-land of course). Such as knowing HP/BaB of a pet, 1/Enc Force a trainer to lose -4EP, you +4EP (which can be a low level TKO/Save & suck effect to those without extra EP), disease immunity/double-heal for HP/EP, Full-Heal HP for -4EP or +2atk/def, 14-24hr +1 def buff, +4 init by shouting orders at pet, and DC 20 Int check to know any Pokemon Pet setting stuff ever.
Thing about Energy Points
Without the "Extra EP" power, you get amount of 1d2+lowest mental stat mod/level. So its possible within first 1-2 levels of play that you just TKO people with your Rhyming Catchphrase!, though it also be canceled out by your opponent saying theirs as well (if they also possess this ability). It's unfortunate it's specific to monster trainers, otherwise you could just probably TK
pg96 wrote:If your character’s Energy Points total is ever reduced to 0, he or she willfall unconscious from exhaustion
Oh, and an addendum for the Martial Artists 1st level ability, it's worse. As it's actually them gaining Two RANKS in Unarmed Attack & defence respectively. So it's basically them gaining a 1pt superpower that gives +4sp...yes..a generic +2 atk/damage would've actually been BETTER.[/spoiler]
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
Chapter 7: Skills
I'll come back to the classes later, first lets talk about skills and how awful they are. Now this game is basically a fractal of bad design, but this part is especially bad, if only because even the most incompetent of designers should have noticed how broken it was the first time they tried to stat up a 1st level character. First off there are a shitton of non-combat skills. 70 to be precise. You might wonder how they cover them all when this chapter is only 7 pages long, but it works out because none of those skills have any rules, just short descriptions of what they do. Many of them are quite stupid too, such as powerlifting, sports, seduction, and use rope.
As bad as that is, the real fail starts with the combat skills. Ranks in these skills give bonuses to AC or attack in certain circumstances. For example, gun combat gives you a bonus when attacking with guns, while ranged defence gives you a bonus when trying to dodge bullets. Oh wait, you can't actually do that:
I am simply amazed at how they screwed up every single part of d20 they touched. I don't think you could make a worse system if that was your goal. I think I need to go get a drink and come back latter.
As bad as that is, the real fail starts with the combat skills. Ranks in these skills give bonuses to AC or attack in certain circumstances. For example, gun combat gives you a bonus when attacking with guns, while ranged defence gives you a bonus when trying to dodge bullets. Oh wait, you can't actually do that:
I have no idea what the game mechanical effect of that is, neither am I clear why that clause appears in a game whose source material includes DBZ. Still, that isn't the worst part. The worst part is that combat skills cost 3 skill points/rank, or 6 if they are cross-class skills. So basically everyone buys as many combat skill ranks as they can afford, which isn't many but enough to destroy the RNG, and has basically no noncombat ability to speak of. Or else they try to be a skillmonkey, fail because there are 70 skills, and then suck in combat. Or else they play a Dynamic Sorcerer, choose Int as their casting stat, and become the best skillmonkey because under the most sensible interpretation of the rules they don't need a combat skill anyways (their AC will suck, but they don't care because they can cast defensive magic, like Mage Armor which grants damage reduction in this game).Ranged Defence wrote:The ability to avoid ranged attacks, but this does not enable a character to actually dodge bullets. Rather, it is a combination of situational awareness and tactical movement as well as knowing where to keep moving (to present a more difficult target) and when to drop for cover.
I am simply amazed at how they screwed up every single part of d20 they touched. I don't think you could make a worse system if that was your goal. I think I need to go get a drink and come back latter.
Last edited by Drolyt on Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.