[SR4] Chase Combat Rules...Make No Goddamn Sense. Help.

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Heisenberg
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[SR4] Chase Combat Rules...Make No Goddamn Sense. Help.

Post by Heisenberg »

So a while back I tried to do this thread which became about crashing/ramming damage which...yes...is retarded in SR4. Like it is worse for you if you crash an eighteen wheeler into a brick wall than a scooter into the same brick wall retarded. Like crazy town. I *think* I have now fixed *that* issue to my satisfaction, although playtest data is needed.

But what I actually wanted to talk about was the Chase Combat Procedure which also makes no damn sense. I am wondering if it's even worth trying to fix it or if it's totally unsalvagable on every level and needs a ground-up rewrite. Like trying to decide if the task before me is modifying this or coming up with something else entirely, and leaning towards the latter.

The thread body text is just the chase combat rules from SR4, unmodified or doctored by me.

This download is the same text, but with my comments (more colorful than informative) and formatting.
CHASE COMBAT OVERVIEW

Chase combat is designed to abstract vehicular combat between multiple vehicles moving at high speed over a longer time frame and across larger distances. It does not happen on a battlematt, and no one's exact position is tracked.

The basic assumption of chase combat is that there are two sides.

Chase Combat Turn Sequence
Here is the sequence for resolving chase combat.

Step 1. Opposed Vehicle Test.
Step 2. Roll Initiative. Roll Initiative as usual. All the normal rules for Initiative apply.
Step 3. Begin Chase Combat Turn
Step 4. Declare Stunts Instead of actions, vehicles execute stunts. Like regular combat, stunts may be Free, Simple, or Complex. See Chase Stunts.
Step 5. Resolve Stunts by Initiative Order As normal, highest Initiative Score to lowest.
Step 6. Resolve Stunts in subsequent passes.
Step 7. End of Chase Turn The Chase Turn ends. Go back to Step 1. Continue resolving chase combat until all opposing vehicles involved have crashed, broken off, or been destroyed.

Chase Turns
Time during chase combat is measured by Chase Turns. One Chase Turn is one minute long (20 Combat Turns). As with standard combat, Chase Turns are further subdivided by Initiative Passes.



Set Up
At the beginning of the first Chase Combat Turn, the gamemaster determines the starting Range of Engagement between the two sides.

Opposed Vehicle Test
At the beginning of the first Chase Combat Turn, each driver makes a Vehicle Test. For every vehicle still in play on the driver's side during the Chase combat add a +2 modifier to the test. For every vehicle on the opposing side apply a -2 modifier. Then compare the Top Speed values of all vehicles on each side. Whichever side has the greater Top Speed value adds a +1 modifier for every 10 full points (roudned down) that their Top Speed exceeds their opponents. The driver with the most hits on either side are compared in an Opposed Vehicle Test. Ties are broken first by Edge, then Reaction, then Handling.

The rules for glitches and critical glitches on Vehicle Tests apply here.

The winning driver may change the Engagement Range for the vehicles on his side by one step with regards to all vehicles on the opposing side(s).

At the beginning of each subsequent Chase Combat Turn, if no one has succeeded at a Break Off stunt (below), each driver makes a new Vehicle Test.

Engagement Range
There are four Ranges of Engagement in Close Combat: Short, Medium, Long, and Extreme.
Short Range is very close, with the vehicles side by side, and drivers can attempt to ram each other or cut each other off. This is close enough that a character could attempt to jump from one vehicle to another. This is Short range for most ranged weapon attacks.
Medium Range is near to each other, but not close enough to directly engage the other vehicle. This is Medium Range for most ranged weapon attacks.
Long Range is within sight of the other vehicle, but trailing a distance away. This is Long Range for most ranged weapon attacks.
Extreme Range is at the limit of detection and at the greatest range that engagement is still possible. This is Extreme Range for most ranged weapon attacks.

Driver Complex Actions and Chase Stunts

Drivers must spend one Complex Action each Chase Turn controlling their vehicle. If they choose, they may spend this Complex Action performing one of the following Chase Stunts. A driver may only perform one Chase Stunt per Turn . If the driver fails to spend a Complex Action controlling the vehiocle, it becomes uncontrolled; apply a -2 dice modifier to the actions of all characters in the vehicle next turn. The driver must succeed in a Vehicle Test to regain control of the vehicle next turn or it will crash.

Break Off (Long or Extreme Range Only): The driver tries to break contact with all other vehicles and flee the scene. To do this, the driver must succeed in a Vehicle Test with a threshold modifier of +1 per pursuing vehicle after the first. The driver must succeed in this test 3 turns in a row--only then has he escaped. If at any point he fails a test or fails to maintain Long Range, he must start to Break Off all over again.
Cut Off (Short Range Only): The driver tries to cut off another vehicle in Short Range, forcing it to crash. Make an Opposed Vehicle Test. The loser must make a Vehicle Test to avoid crashing, with the net gits generated from this test serving as a negative modifier.
Maneuver (Any Range): The driver attempts to maneuver for a better position. For each net hit he scores on a Vehicle Test (over the threshold), he adds +1 die to his Opposed Vehicle Test at the beginning of the next Chase Combat Turn.
Ram (Short Range Only): The driver attempts to collide with another vehicle in Short Range. Resolve this as noted under Ramming, p. XX.

Passenger Actions
Passenger actions take place as normal, in Initiative order.

Multiple Opponents
On occasion, Chase combat might involve more than two sides. In this case apply a -2 dice pool modifier to any Chase Stunts for each additional faction beyond the first that becomes involved in the action. For instance should a Lone Star helicopter be following a shadowrunning team trying to evade a corp sec unit, this would constitute three sides and apply a -2 dice pool modifier to everyone's tsts.

In situations where vehicles on one side have a significant Speed advantage over the others, additional negative modifiers apply. Add the Speed of all the vehicles on each "side" and compare totals. For every 20 points that the highest total Speed Rating exceeds the second highest total, apply an additional -1 dice pool modifier to all Chase Stunt Tests performed by the slower factions' vehicles.
At a glance, problems include but are not limited to...

* Driver is arbitrarily limited to one relevant action per turn. Why?
* Actually ESCAPING from a car chase is virtually impossible, and literally impossible in a reasonable number of turns. The only likely outcome of a car chase is forcing a crash, or if guns are being fired, vehicles being shot to pieces.
* Having a bunch of slow, shitty vehicles on your side gives you a huge positioning advantage, i.e. having a ton of campers makes it much easier for you keep up with a fighter jet. All the rules really support this insane and bizarre assumption.
* For no adequately explained reason everyone literally becomes retarded when more than two sides are involved.
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Heisenberg
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Post by Heisenberg »

really?
Ikeren
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Post by Ikeren »

Even here, there is no hope for Shadowrun's rules :P
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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor »

After Sundown has some Chase rules that are about 90% good (though they can drag on a while if both sides are the same skill level). Just backport those rules into Shadowrun, would me my advice.
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kzt
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Post by kzt »

Heisenberg wrote:really?
There are pieces of SR that are so bad that not only will nobody defend them, those who like the general SR rules feel compelled to carry out the mental exercise that Orwell called crimestop on the topic.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch »

AS is a step in the right direction but the game isn't really interested in the Road Warrior and so while it does stuff to handle chases it doesn't have many guidelines for figuring out what happens when a rocket equipped stepvan throws down with a fleet of gyrocopters. The most noteworthy thing from AS is probably Frank's argument regarding combat turns. The gist is that the standard AS 12 second combat round is often way too short to be appropriate for highway chases. That's pretty damning stuff when you consider that SR4A turns only last 3 seconds.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu May 29, 2014 12:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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