Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:00 am

I actually thought shadzar, as a person, could not surprise me.

I didn't actually expect him to become that disgusting, but I shouldn't be surprised, as it kinda goes with being a grognard, huh?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:45 am

shadzar wrote:did Jackie Chan and Lucy Liu have a baby? That looks nothing like a warlock and more like just a chinese wizard. I am sorry, I was unaware China was in D&D-world, but since all the art was done in china, maybe there wont be anything but asian looking depictions

I've seen your tumblr and it's mostly hentai so you of anyone should reconsider throwing around cheap asian animation jokes.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 4:51 am

maybe you should both learn to speak Engrish. Al the art was outsourced to Chinese artists long ago when Jon Shithead quit. I like anime, but the style doesn't fit with D&D anymore than it does with Pathfailure.

If you wanted to make an Avatar world game, then sure, but when you try the shit Jon Shithead was planning for D&D art like the lopsided top heavy halflings and then have them drawn in manwa style, how the hell is it really going to do anything except look like a game ripped off form Bleach, Samurai X (Ruroni Kensjin), and every damn thing else out there.

D&D should not be anime based, thy can make another game for that. They made Animaga for card games instead of turning MtG into all anime (save for Kamigawa block). The art doesn't suit the game is THAT is how ALL the art is going to look. and again "warlock" is not a term associated with chinese, so showing that style jsut doesnt fit the name. i am pretty sure that the term warlock is European and sorcerer and wizard are more along the line of the Huns and Khan and such.

i have been fearing the art since the gravity-defying halfling crap previewed long ago, and this jsut proves they are trying to add all ethnicities for the sake of adding them all to be PC, and it just isn't could to work if they don't match them to the right classes. and especially if they dont make them look decent as the one on that page jsut looks like shit! Why not got for David Lopan from Big Trouble in Little China. that would inspire fear for the class imagery!

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:36 am

shadzar wrote:this jsut proves they are trying to add all ethnicities for the sake of adding them all to be PC, and it just isn't could to work if they don't match them to the right classes.

Post by **fbmf** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:51 am

maybe you should both learn to speak Engrish.

Did Jackie Chan and Lucy Liu have a baby?

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Enough with the racist remarks. You have way overstepped even the "anything goes" standards of The Den.
[/TGFBS]

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:20 am

Shadzar's rant is stupid and offensive, but not at all relevant. There is nothing good or bad or even a little bit interesting that parts of the picture on the warlock page seem sort of inspired by some Asianish themes. The bottom line really is that Mearls chose two pages out of the entire Player's Handbook to use as a teaser, and presumably chose what he thought were the most impressive.

He chose... a full page wild magic surges percentile chart, and some boring warlock flavor text with a water color looking picture that had weird proportions. In short: everything on both pages is rather uninspired and poorly considered filler. Even if you thought there should be a wild magic surge table (leaving aside the fact that that is a terrible idea), it can and therefore should take up a lot less than a full page. Probably it's inevitable that you're going to have some flavor text at the beginning of each class description, and some art is necessary as well, but this stuff seems even more phoned in than you'd expect. A figuratively paint-by-numbers Warlock intro description with what appears to be an actual paint-by-numbers warlock picture.

If that is their best foot forward... yeesh.

-Username17

zugschef · Post by **zugschef** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:11 am

shadzar wrote:maybe you should both learn to speak Engrish.

Hiralious.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer · Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:53 am

erik wrote:
Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:Man this is so depressing. I was honestly (and naively) hopeful that D&D 5E would be a game that I'd be introducing to my kids when they're old enough to play.

At this rate, I'm just going to wait another 5 years for Pathfinder 2E (which will eventually come out right?) or D&D 6E if 5E doesn't kill D&D for good.

That said, I have loads of other RPGs.
No. Bad Hammer. What children would you raise to not get blood in their ears at the mention of Bargle?

Start them out with the basic red box so they can appreciate improvements when you skip ahead to 3e and then other systems.

Realistically I'll probably start them on something really simple like Risus which is fairly easy and straightforward. But you're right, some kind of older D&D version or an OCR of some sort might be a decent approach as well.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:57 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:

You haven't played Conan d20?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:17 pm

The page layout and aesthetics of 5E D&D look really similar to that of late-era 4E D&D.

No, seriously. Crack open your copy of, say, Heroes of Shadow or Heroes of Elemental Chaos. Even the fonts are exactly the same. And that warlock looks like a weird mixture of 4E artwork with Pathfinder aesthetics.

I'd really like to know what they were thinking here. The 4E D&D layout isn't awful or anything, but if they were trying to make a clean break with the past they really shouldn't have done that. It'd be like trying to make a PHB with white pages on large print that had Frank Fauxzetta artwork plastered all over it.

DEBO · Post by **DEBO** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:22 pm

From some of the rhetoric, that would have been less suprising.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:55 pm

I know many here want to paly a clusterfuck world, but you are missing the point. YES ethnicities have a "right class" based on the cultures. like the problem with the african wizard jon shithead had done. you see different cultures have different names for things and jsut showing all one "race" of the human world as all the classes doesn't work be it white american or chinese (who is doing 5e art), just throwing things in doesnt work either. the better chance for an audience to connect would be the previous of all one regional peoples for the region you are making your product for. since D&D is worldwide then adding "other" races (everyone s a fucking human, it is and we are ONE race), then you should put them culturally correct.

a bunch of fucking bigost calling me racist? really? you dont see how using a wrong cultures tropes for the idea is wrong? sadly we only have the ONE pic of the chinese inspired warlock to go on, but i still think the whole book with have similar art. i will be HAPPY to be proven wrong if/when other class pages come out to show ALL this style art so at least the game looks like it has continuity. again remember the "Dragon's Eye View" articles from Jon Shithead that was all about adding multiple real world "races" into the books.

i jsut guess none of you have any experience with non-Murican cultures and think everyone the same, but there are themes in each culture and stepping outside those can often look silly unless you are going for cyberpunk or modern, and D&D shouldnt be "modern" RPG. it should keep to its medieval roots and let the other games that have existed do the "magic + modern day".

if you want to get technical, sure warlock, wizard, shaman, druid, sorcerer, witch, etc all mean the same damn thing from different cultures, but if you are going to use the nomenclature from a specific culture, then aply it to that culture so we don't have more stupidity like 4th "Bloodied" that uses an english word for something that has NOTHING to do with the meaning ANYONE would know.

there is a reason OA had classes to it like Wu-jen. how many of you ever played with dwarven wu-jen? none of you had chinese dwarves?

t6he warlock art on that pages is just fucked and wrong. it is worse than that dick covered armor art by the wayne person that did 4th.

MAybe some of you should go back and look at the Dragon's Eye View articles to see how people disagreed witht he art direction and then realize that ALL the art wa sontracted out to China and Chinese artists, and this very picture depicting how it does was EXACTLY a fear people had about having the art done by someone else. THAT is what I am talking about. ALL the art could fall into anime style because of the artists and we have NO idea what happened after leaving DEV articles and JS leaving WotC to the art.

look at the pic in Mearl's tweet and imagine the entire book like this. no eyes for all PC type characters and this style. it isnt going to attract any older edition players because it looks TOO anime just like Pathfinder.

Or maybe that was the end point of sending it to china to have the art done their to make it look like PAthfinder to attract those players back, and THAT is the sole purpose of 5th? i wouldn't put that past WotC, but with all the lies they tell, why does ANYONE trust them to do D&D anymore or even want to play their version? probably why BD&D is being given away for free to hope it will attract some people.

just wait until the books come out and i will bet a LOT of people are complaining about the art if the whole book is like this ONE picture, while the page layout will be commended.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:39 pm

Shadzar are you trying to get banned?

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:17 pm

I don't quite understand all the grognard hate for anime. Berserk is fairly D&D. Well, not quite D&D. Guts is allowed to fight demons without casting spells. But close.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:22 pm

My personal theory is that anime in the 70s-80s by and large played backgammon with pencil sharpeners. And as we all know, grognards are incapable of willfully updating their cultural knowledge past this time period without a heavy dose of cajoling and affinity fraud.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:16 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: A figuratively paint-by-numbers Warlock intro description with what appears to be an actual paint-by-numbers warlock picture.

Why would we expect anything different? Everything about D&D Next has been desperately clinging to D&D standards in a failed attempt to get everyone back. All of the playtest materials read as trying to embrace D&D cliches to please everyone and come off as hackwork.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:59 pm

at a con, and apparently non-proficiency in armor/shields mean you not only get disadvantage, but you don't get the AC bonus

brized · Post by **brized** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:09 pm

Sakuya Izayoi wrote:I don't quite understand all the grognard hate for anime. Berserk is fairly D&D. Well, not quite D&D. Guts is allowed to fight demons without casting spells. But close.

Before Guts got the Berserk armor, that's largely because the brand and possibly behelits create a bubble of the Interstice around the carrier. While in there you age more slowly and can use your will to reshape reality, like...being able to wield the Dragon Slayer. Magic users spend time there so they can more easily learn to cast spells. Chapters 215-218 and 223 explain this. And of course he has a healing fairy companion. So most of that is "because, magic".

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:20 pm

Sakuya Izayoi wrote:I don't quite understand all the grognard hate for anime. Berserk is fairly D&D. Well, not quite D&D. Guts is allowed to fight demons without casting spells. But close.

basic american xenophobia?

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:31 pm

Lokathor wrote:
Sakuya Izayoi wrote:I don't quite understand all the grognard hate for anime. Berserk is fairly D&D. Well, not quite D&D. Guts is allowed to fight demons without casting spells. But close.
basic american xenophobia?

I doubt it.

My experience is anecdotal, but about everyone I've gamed with has watched some anime (at least some), and has thrown a couple of nods to it into a game at some time or another.

Fitting it into D&D seems to be where the problem comes up. That it's not in the Western Fantasy genre (despite the western fantasy genre containing Cu Chulainn and Roland and Hercules and Diomedes, somehow they forget that), or that melee fighters getting inherently faster, stronger, and tougher is somehow not realistic.

Possibly it's a reaction to how far anime has permeated western nerd culture.

darkmaster · Post by **darkmaster** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:37 pm

Well, you know what they say, about progress and grave stones, eventually all the gonards will die of heart explosions brought on by over consumption of Red Bull Power Thirst energy drinks and the remaining nerds will be the defacto rulers of the RPG scene.

Night Goat · Post by **Night Goat** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:00 pm

I think a lot of people might not realize that good anime exists. Some of the older stuff is good, but the quality of anime in general has been declining for years.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:10 pm

TiaC wrote:
Leress wrote:
deanruel87 wrote:That art is terrible
What? Are you telling me you don't like Warlock that has apparently gone trick or treating?

I just noticed how unnatural the position of that arm is. Thumb out, arm in line with shoulders, and heel of the staff(?) in from of her body. It's not comfortable and there is little reason to be in it.

Well, if we're just talking position, that's kind of a minor thing, at least when you compare it to some of the horrible, horrible poses WotC artists have churned out:

Jeska, Warrior Adept from mtg. That's actually her right leg you're seeing. She essentially has a lazy susan in place of a spine.

I don't think it's that bad, aside from a very unnatural arm position.

It is a very grognardy chart, except that most results are positive. The oldschool chart would have summoned Orcus or something.

Here's what I can make out on the chart:
01-02: Roll on this table at the start of each of your turns for the next minute
03-04: For the next minute, you can see any invisible creature if you have line of sight to it
05-06: A monster chosen and controlled by the DM appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you, then disappears 1 minute later
07-08: You cast fireball as a 3rd level spell centered on yourself
09-10: You cast magic missile as a (5th?) level spell
11-12: Roll a d10. Your hieght changes by a number of inches equal to the roll. If the roll is odd you shrink, if the roll is even you grow.
13-14: You cast Confusion centered on yourself
15-16: For the next minute you regain 5 hit points at the start of each of your turns.
17-18: You grow a long (beard?) made of (feathers?) that (something something)
19-20: You cast grease on yourself
21-22: Creatures have disadvantage on saving throws against the next spell you cast (something something)
23-24:...
25-26: An eye appears on your forehead for the next minute. During that time, you have (advantage?) on (something something) sight.
27-28 to 43-44 illegible
45-46: You cast ... on yourself
47-48: A (unicorn?) controlled by the DM appears (obscured by post it) within 5 feet of you then disappears 1 (minute later, presumably)
49-50: You can't speak for the next minute. ("When you" presumably, obscured by post it) try, pink bubbles float out of your mouth.
51-52: A spectral shield hovers near you for the next minute, granting you a +2 bonus on AC and immunity to magic missiles
53-54: You are immune to being intoxicated by alcohol for the next 1d4 (something. Hours, presumably)
55-56: For the next minute, when you move on your turn, you can teleport the distance instead of walking.
57-58: Your alignment changes to a randomly determined one. A remove curse spell can restore your original alignment.
59-60: You regain your lowest level expended spall slot.
61-62: For the next minute, you must shout when you speak.
63-64: You cast fogcloud centered on yourself
65-66: Up to three creatures you (can see?) within 30 feet of you take 1d10 lightning damage
67-68: You cast polymorph on yourself (personal note- this should direct you to roll on the Reincarnate table for form)
69-70: Each creature within 30 feet of you becomes invisible for the next minute. The invisibility (ends for?) a creature when it attacks or casts a spell
71-72: You (gain resistance?) to all damage for the next minute
73-74: A random creature within (10?) feet of you becomes (poisoned? Is that a condition now? lame.) for 1d4 hours
75-76: You glow with bright light in a 30-foot radius for the next minute. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of you is blinded until the end of its next turn
77-78: You cast polymorph on yourself, if you fail the saving throw, you turn into a sheep.
79-80: Illusory butterflies and flower petals (flutter?) in the air within 10 feet of you for the next minute.
81-82: You can take an additional action immediately
83-84 to 99-100 are illegible.

Night Goat wrote:Also: I just noticed the sticky note that says "Never give up." Is giving up something he considers so often that he has to remind himself not to do it?

It's a fortune cookie fortune. That makes it substantially less meaningful.

As to the content of the spoiler- It's also possible that he just snapped a picture of what he was working on at that moment.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:15 pm

Pre-NGE anime by and large chews. I mean, you still have some genuine gems like Legend of Galactic Heroes but for the most part it's just a crappy cavalcade of crap. For every series that makes you smile and reaffirms your faith in humanity like Bubblegum Crisis or Ranma 1/2, you have five series that make you hate the world a little more like Violence Jack and Angel Cop and Guyver and MD Geist and the Dragonball Z and Fist of the North Star adaptations. Modern anime's ratio is more like 1:3, which is a huge improvement.

ED: Mad Bull 34 might count as So Bad It's Good and I can understand why people would say that, but to me it's So Bad It's Good in the same way that Sonichu is (or rather isn't) So Bad It's Good. The elements for zany stupidity are there, but there's enough genuine crap in there to make you cringe and make the experience unpleasant.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:25 pm

05-06: A monster chosen and controlled by the DM appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you, then disappears 1 minute later

Mearls you are charging money for this book the least you can do is give the DM a chart or something so he doesn't have to go leafing through the Monster Manual every time this roll comes up.