Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

[shadzar]

yes BAB is THACO just with AC going up not down, and a limit to AC @ around -12.

Some people have no need for ascending AC jsut for the sake of bigger numbers, because math works in both systems as they are the same.

You don't need descending AC to have a hard cap. There's nothing wrong with saying "the highest possible Armour Class is 32," which results in easier math and a hard limit on the difficulty of hitting creatures. 3rd edition D&D didn't cap AC (partially due to increased to-hit bonuses compared to prior editions), but that doesn't mean THAC0 is the only way to implement an AC cap.

In the interest of "rules transparency" that people love today, where is the cap and when does the DM tell it to you since 2000? in AD&D you knew the cap very soon with the core game. ECL and all that with templates makes finding the cap since 2000 a bit hard depending on how much you slap together.

the cap was just nice, but again it is more that it works either way, so why must i change just to suit others?

if the left-handed can do things just as well as the right-handed, then why should a southpaw have to do things right-handed?

[Prak]

*resisting urge to interact with shad...*

[Koumei]

*resisting urge to interact with shad...*

Don't do it. Put the gun down, listen to me! It doesn't have to end like this.

[darkmaster]

You're stronger than you think you are!

[Maxus]

Be strong, Prak! He just wants the attention!

[RadiantPhoenix]

Just Say No.

[DSMatticus]

On the other hand, it can't be that bad, can it? Just this once wouldn't hurt anything.

[Josh_Kablack]

It's a fucking defense of THAC0.

Such can only come from people who do not understand computational complexity at all.

Multiplying by negative one more difficult than not multiplying by negative one. And if you don't understand that, you don't have enough math understanding for your opinion to count.

[rampaging-poet]

In the interest of "rules transparency" that people love today, where is the cap and when does the DM tell it to you since 2000?

3rd edition D&D didn't cap AC

if the left-handed can do things just as well as the right-handed, then why should a southpaw have to do things right-handed?

A more accurate comparison would be using a command line on a computer instead of a graphical user interface. The command line can do anything the GUI can, and if you're already used to the command line you can navigate it well enough for your own purposes. However, GUIs are much more intuitive and easier to learn. Someone new to a computer program can generally learn a well-designed GUI faster than a similarly well-designed command line interface.

In 3rd edition, bigger numbers are always better. That little bit of consistency makes it easier to learn. BAB and ascending AC also reduces the number of steps required to resolve an attack roll, especially since addition is faster than subtraction. That makes using ascending AC in newly-designed games a no-brainer. It's not worth going back to convert all the existing material "just because," but there's no reason other than nostalgia for new material to use THAC0 either.

[Dogbert]

This thread is being mighty informative so far.

[RadiantPhoenix]

On the other hand, it can't be that bad, can it? Just this once wouldn't hurt anything.

The first one is free... :3

[shadzar]

In the interest of "rules transparency" that people love today, where is the cap and when does the DM tell it to you since 2000?

3rd edition D&D didn't cap AC

if the left-handed can do things just as well as the right-handed, then why should a southpaw have to do things right-handed?

A more accurate comparison would be using a command line on a computer instead of a graphical user interface. The command line can do anything the GUI can, and if you're already used to the command line you can navigate it well enough for your own purposes. However, GUIs are much more intuitive and easier to learn. Someone new to a computer program can generally learn a well-designed GUI faster than a similarly well-designed command line interface.

In 3rd edition, bigger numbers are always better. That little bit of consistency makes it easier to learn. BAB and ascending AC also reduces the number of steps required to resolve an attack roll, especially since addition is faster than subtraction. That makes using ascending AC in newly-designed games a no-brainer. It's not worth going back to convert all the existing material "just because," but there's no reason other than nostalgia for new material to use THAC0 either.

a problem is that the picture can say 1000 words, but not always does everyone know what those words mean, like Windows 8 is to the terrorist alert system, what the hell does level orange mean? it is no good if you cant remember all the little strangeness of the iconography. and still a GUI uses command lines interpreters anyway.

the whole "addition is faster than subtraction" shit never worked to well as an argument because cheap calculators have existed prior to WotC D&D editions. now with iPads, smart phones, etc. you just fondle the minus sign instead of the plus sign. it doesnt even take any math skills, just button mashing skills to do it. also with the whole Project Morningstar, and the fact that someone could make an attack app, you don't need to do anything but put in the things being used and let the app handle all that math for you. again a case of a GUI for basic math, so addition and subtraction doesnt mean shit.

the point is THAC0 is the same damn thing as BAB, and i cannot understand the fear of subtraction. just use a calculator like everyone was doing in the 70s. even when it required P&P instead of tablets and laptop/notebook computers, people didn't sit doing longhand addition and subtraction or using slide rules for this shit.

it is only a hangup and a non-existent problem since PEOPLE, the players are not doing the math, but a calculator is, either a device made solely for doing math or some other computing device.

how many people here play D&D or any other RPG and do the attack math with a pencil and paper?

then end result is you are still just comparing two numbers to find if your roll produced the bigger number. thus they are the same thing, even the math has been shown by a 3rd edition player to be the same math just with AC starting at 10 going up, not down. still just a number line.

they are functionally identical.

[momothefiddler]

how many people here play D&D or any other RPG and do the attack math with a pencil and paper?

I don't. I do it in my head. Which is faster than doing it with a calculator. And it's faster to add than to subtract. Which means that even if I use a calculator, subtraction will slow me down, and unnecessary subtraction will slow me down unnecessarily.

It's probably not going to be a total time loss worth billing, but like you said, it's mathematically equivalent, so there's literally no gain whatsoever to balance out the fairly small loss. Which means that, beyond being a minor loss of time, it's also inelegant.

[souran]

Get back to the original topic:

I have been to all the FLGS in my area. In not a SINGLE ONE are they clearing space to put up new racks of D&D stuff. For good or ill, the Pathfinder Advanced Class Guide is generating more talking points than the release of 5E.

Part of it is the adventure paths. Most of the people I saw playing were playing an Pathfinder AP. Further, because they were playing a pathfinder AP, the idea of dropping their campaign in the middle to play new D&D is just not even on their radar.

I get that this is all anecdotal, but retail is not thinking this is a big launch. They are not geared up the same way there were for the 4E release.

A game company that does not release new product for 2 years is effectively out of buisness. This release is being treated like an indy product from a no-name publisher.

[ACOS]

I don't need blowjobs, but...

The hell you say.

"It keeps people who are dumb from playing the game". This is not a good argument.

But I whole-heartedly endorse the sentiment.

Though really, fully assimilated words like 'forum' should follow the rules of English and not that of the old language.

Except that, generally speaking, words adopted after the Great Vowel Shift typically retain the original form.

Not that I actually care - just being a smart-ass.

[shadzar]

I get that this is all anecdotal, but retail is not thinking this is a big launch. They are not geared up the same way there were for the 4E release.

there is 2 types of customer:
-more money than brains
-more brains and less money

the people the edition treamill catrs to is the more moeny than brains crowd. the people sticking with something tried and true are closer to the more brains les money crowd. even if they have plenty of money, they are spending les on crap they don't need because they have more brains to know they don't need it when they already have something that works that they like.

this is why 4th edition was a failure because it threw out the 3.x crowd. since PF exists, 5e HAD TO try to reclaim pre-WotC D&D players as well to even try to compete in the RPG arena with the monster it created.

i don't blame people for sticking with something they like rather than going for "new shiny", as i am still sticking to what i like rather than being a mindless lemming jsut following the herd.

[Surgo]

To bring this back on topic, what's the current status of 5E? Haven't been following any news, can anyone sum it up?

[shadzar]

To bring this back on topic, what's the current status of 5E? Haven't been following any news, can anyone sum it up?

Starter Set online as PDF/digital in JulY. PHB in stores in July, DMG in stores in August,. MM in stores in September?

that is the status.

[Wiseman]

Why are they not releasing all the essential sourcebooks at once? Are we supposed to just look at the pretty picture's until september unless were going to play with only classed enemies?

[souran]

Because its supposed to be like the launch of 2nd and 3rd edition where the books where staggered to help FLGS sales.

Also supposedly there will be stuff that makes it so you can play during the 4 months its going to take them to release the game.

[Dean]

Also supposedly there will be stuff that makes it so you can play during the 4 months its going to take them to release the game.

I think that's a bold reinterpretation of what they've said. I think the immensely vague completely nondescript things that kind of sound like what you said are being done to make people interpret them exactly as you did while not actually promising anything of the sort.

[Surgo]

Okay so basically -- 5e is still vaporware, right? And no indication at the moment of that changing?

[souran]

Oh no, its not vaporware.

It has a release date. They have a line-up of products. Those products are being printed RIGHT NOW. The game is comming, but nobody gives a shit.

Also, they are staggering the release of the core books because a sub-division of hasbro thinks that PRINTING MULTIPLE BOOKS AT ONCE is now an impossibility.

I agree with Deanruel87 that its highly likely that the game will be totally unplayable prior to the release of all three books. Or, if I were to be more accurate with what they have said:

You will need the starter set to play the game prior to the November release of the monster manual. The starter set will give you enough monsters that you can play low level games but the starter set will probably be messing essential rules of some sort.

Then when the PHB is released you will finally know most of the rules to things like combat and character creation but you will still be stuck playing games against 5 hp Orcs and stuff. Also, you won't be able to have any magic items because those won't be released for another month.

Then the DMG comes out and all the rules they have decided to hide in that book will be available. However, from a play standpoint without more sample monsters, and monster building rules that make sense, players will still be stuck fighting the starter set baddies for 2 months until the MM comes out.

By that time the theorycrafters will have reduced the system to a burnt cinder. The game will have been effectively reverse engineered and so the monster manual will mostly exist to demonstrate if the design team is good or crappy and producing meaningful supplement.

However:

The real issue is that nobody except ENWORLD seems to give a shit that 5E is comming out at all. Nobody is prepping for it, nobody is planning on shifting to it, its doesn't even really have a whole bunch of haters waiting around to say how much it sucks. WOTC has turned D&D into a game that can be released and nobody notices...

[Koumei]

Ah, so ENworld are still total shills for whatever the latest thing is, in the style of PR's "gay ponies in Bavaria" post?

I found it interesting that most 4E fans actually hate every preview of 5E - the "4E is the only way, Mearls will make you his bitch!" marketing actually set them against any future edition.

[CapnTthePirateG]

"Gay ponies in Bavaria?"