On homebrew settings ...

[ACOS]

When prepping a homebrew setting, how much info is acceptable to throw at the players pre-game?
In other words, what is the maximum acceptable word count for a setting primer? (exact # is not necessary, of course)
I know that conservation of detail is a thing. However, there certainly must be a point at which the DM is fully reasonable and justified in saying "don't be a lazy shit" to a player who doesn't feel like reading the setting material.




In case anyone cares, this is prompted by some of the side commentary in the Earthdawn thread - specifically, laughing at the "'80's-DM homebrew settings". It just got me thinking, that's all.

[Blicero]

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55385

[angelfromanotherpin]

That's an entirely subjective thing. Some people just don't engage text blocks at all, but might happily have a discussion session. I've done that, in character as the PC's mentor, teaching the childhood PC about history and politics. It was well-received.

I think the most important thing is to present the information from the perspective of things that impact the PCs' existence. When I did my Weatherstoke campaign, I made it clear that the city was a generally hostile environment, and that knowing who could and couldn't be pissed off with impunity might be a matter of life and death. That got people interested in the local power structures pretty quick, so they read the handouts (representing 'common knowledge') and then delved deeper on their own initiative, looking for leverage.

[shadzar]

1. the restricted classes and race of the PCs. this gives an idea of the world view.

2. how the world is set up. general political views and religious views of the person of the world so the players can interact with them in character

3. some kind of placement. where the hell are the PCs, why are they there, what else is nearby should they wish to leave there.

the rest depends on how much your players want.

for introductory information on a new place, person thing, etc; you should keep it where it will fit on a 3x5 index card. then any new information wanted by the players can be taken from wherever the setting bible is.

think in terms of a TV show synopsis, so the players have enough information to get interested, and want to ask more questions.

if you make a world bible for new players and hand it to them to read, then remember that most will ignore it until it comes up when you as a DM have to mention it anyway.

KISS should apply to any handouts. of course if you want to make a handout of bigger chunks of information when something new is asked so you don't have to read it and then every memorize it, but can always look back; that is fine.

start small and build on it.

then there are some people that would read the whole damn setting book to have an advantage like reading a Nintendo Power magazine to find the cheats, or trying to read an adventure module before playing it. these people dont understand the game to begin with, so remove then as quickly as possible and dont worry about them after that.

[Josh_Kablack]

When prepping a homebrew setting, how much info is acceptable to throw at the players pre-game?
In other words, what is the maximum acceptable word count for a setting primer? (exact # is not necessary, of course)
I know that conservation of detail is a thing. However, there certainly must be a point at which the DM is fully reasonable and justified in saying "don't be a lazy shit" to a player who doesn't feel like reading the setting material.
[/size]

On one hand, the setting intro and hook needs to be ultra-short. But on the other hand there is not any upper limit to the total amount of detail you can have. The key is that the players need to be able to drill down to the parts that interest them quickly. Or even better, get some authorship abilities and feel some ownership of parts of the setting.

If you cannot describe enough about the setting for players to get the basics in one typed pages, it's way way too long. Heck if it takes a whole paragraph you probably need to simplify and distill things.

Here are a couple example overviews:

"This setting is all about earthbound agrarian human civilizations lorded over by giants with floating cloud castles and the orders of bird-riding skyknights who fight wars of territory and ideology between the kingdoms" (Joust)

"In this setting, all savages are inherently noble, all civilizations are inherently decadent and cities only survive due to arcane magical artillery being able to keep the barbarian hordes at bay" (Conan / Elric)

"In this setting, magical talent is rare and inborn, and so magicians are jealously feared by muggles. Some magicians try to overcome this prejudice, while others see their magical powers as granting them the divine right to rule over those without such powers." (X-Men)

Those are all 50 words or less, and they all immediately tell players "what's different" while providing the start of a couple different character-building hooks.

Then if a player in the Joust setting wants to play a Skyknight, that player needs to be able to find out about the various orders and their mounts, weaponry and ideologies quickly, without having to skim over the parts about giant inheritance rules and the different materials used in fortifying floating castles. Or if they want to start leading a farmer's rebellion against the giants, they need to know what might be used motivate and train the farmers without having to skim over the mottos of each and every order of skyknight.

[fectin]

Wikis are a good technical solution, in that you can provide an overview with links to detail. That way you conserve your detail by only providing what's most interesting to each reader. Not foolproof, obviously, but it helps.

[Antariuk]

I agree with Josh, if you can summarize the gist of your setting within one (or two) sentences, you're golden. Follow up with a short paragraph giving a bit more details, and then branch out into the respecitve topic's chapters. Nobody wants to read walls of text of elven fanfiction.

In terms of D&D settings, one of the biggest offenders I can think of right now is Iron Kingdoms (the d20 version). The setting book was almost system-neutral, ironically, but in terms of accessability it is absolutely terrible. You get a short intro mentioning war and some generic adventures you can set up, and then you are immediately confronted with pages upon pages of history blurp. At this point, you know that there is some steampunk theme going on, but nothing more.

Say what you will about Eberron, but the 3rd edition setting's introduction kicks ass. Within two pages or so, you get a short summary of what's going on, what kind of theme they are aiming for, what type of media (books, movies) served as inspiration, and a list like "10 things you need to know about Eberron" or something.

For my last two homebrew games, I went with 3 pages of description, including maps, lists of the pantheon, and stuff like that, so probably not even 2 pages of full text. If someone wanted to know more about X, I pulled a page from my notes going into more detail, but nothing more.

[Krusk]

I like the 1-2 sentence hook and then a single page of "you have to read this." That page should more bulleted lists and short descriptions than essays. Maybe even pictures.

Then you give a link to a wiki that I don't think can have too much info.

[OgreBattle]

When prepping a homebrew setting, how much info is acceptable to throw at the players pre-game?

Short enough to be flavor text in a deck of M:tG cards for different topics. So an artifact sword can be one card, a castle another, while the various ranks and clans of goblins can be multiple cards. M:tG has evocative worlds with fan followings purely through card text (and artwork). I've never read a MTG novel but I know what a sliver does, I know enough about the Order of the Ebon Hand to have them as antagonists or a protagonist's background, I can tell a Llanowar elf from a Lorywn elf, that's the info a single M:tG card conveys.

[GnomeWorks]

Short enough to be flavor text in a deck of M:tG cards for different topics. So an artifact sword can be one card, a castle another, while the various ranks and clans of goblins can be multiple cards.

Damn, that is fantastic advice.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

My last attempt at colaborative worldbuilding ended up with a player specifically encouraging me to use a gazetteer overview I crafted to improve my skills with GIMP. The reason for the encouragement was specifically so they could play a foreigner to the land, rather than having me build the setting around them.

As for the rest of the players in this campaign, the smoothest way to get them to make appropriate characters is to communicate themes and conceits, rather than lore.

[shadzar]

Short enough to be flavor text in a deck of M:tG cards for different topics. So an artifact sword can be one card, a castle another, while the various ranks and clans of goblins can be multiple cards.

Damn, that is fantastic advice.

That is what TSR did in the 90s with wizard spells, preist spells, psionic spells cards, decks of encounters, magic item cards and "trading" cards.

[Wiseman]

Depends on the type of campaign you're running. If it's a sandbox game, you'll want to detail the places of adventure and well-known cities and locations along with important NPC's, attitudes, and factions that they might influence/lead/attack, which might not take up too much space. If it's a narrative game, then you'll want to detail an abridged history leading up to the start of the game, and likewise, alot of the things a sandbox game would have.

Feel free to write a lot, although at the beginning of the campaign, only give a brief summary. If the players show an interest in exploring more of the history, then you can detail the rest of it.

[GnomeWorks]

That is what TSR did in the 90s with wizard spells, preist spells, psionic spells cards, decks of encounters, magic item cards and "trading" cards.

I was four when that linked box set came out, so I am not surprised I am unfamiliar with that.

[shadzar]

That is what TSR did in the 90s with wizard spells, preist spells, psionic spells cards, decks of encounters, magic item cards and "trading" cards.

I was four when that linked box set came out, so I am not surprised I am unfamiliar with that.

With modern gamers, the excuse of age in relation to D&D has worn thin as an excuse, since most take only WotC word as gospel as if they created D&D and RPGs. Also the vast amount of knowledge online in modern gamers lifetimes and ease of access means there is less excuse really.

if on the other hand you wish to cut out the horseshit like thinking things are attacks. ou kow have the info on all those related products and could eaily search eBay or Amazon for them and get ideas from them to use in modern games, or use them in the games they were made for.

i am sure older gamers here didn't know of them that much or what was in them either. in short they are a small bit of "boxed text" you can use for just about anything. th encounter cards are often very weird but entertaining none the less. think of them as premade encounter, but without any real goal, just the set-up. the spell cards are pretty much what they say, and the magic item cards are the same as in the DMG. you just don't have to copy it down to hand to someone, you could hand them the card.

which was based on the idea like i mentioned in the previous post, of being informatino that would fit on a 3x5 index card since that is basically what was used before any of these cards were sold.

[GnomeWorks]

With modern gamers, the excuse of age in relation to D&D has worn thin as an excuse, since most take only WotC word as gospel as if they created D&D and RPGs. Also the vast amount of knowledge online in modern gamers lifetimes and ease of access means there is less excuse really.

...and I've got better things to do with my time than learn every single bit of gaming esoterica from all time.

Really sick and fucking tired of old gamers using the "gotcha" line on people. Guess what, I don't know everything; maybe if you didn't line your responses to such admissions of ignorance with such clear contempt, I'd actually give a damn what you have to say.

But since courtesy is apparently beyond you... go fuck yourself, I guess.

[brized]

Judicious use of the Ignore feature can immensely improve your experience here. Go on...do it.

[shadzar]

Really sick and fucking tired of old gamers using the "gotcha" line on people.

More ignorant shit from a child. You post in response to a simple lsit of examples of the given idea with a xcvd comic already taking a defensive where none was needed, then when you are called on your bullshit, you come back like the victim.

sorry but welcome to TGD, and go suck a barrel of cocks.

you don't want help in simple form like a list of product you could google, then don't fucking ask for or act like you want the ideas.

or how about get off your fucking highchair and come down to reality and accept context of posts.

now shut the fuck up bitching about how you aint got time, and go look at the fucking products if you want to know more about them or piss off and crawl into Mistborn's corner of failure.

[Dogbert]

Regardless of whether homebrew or published, I never use more than a single page as a sales brochure for any game I pitch.

Everything else comes on a need-to-know basis starting with chargen. If the setting is a homebrew, then it's my responsibily of constantly feed tidbits of information to my players as the game goes and make sure the players know everything their characters should. Basically, the only information restricted to Lore checks is that the PCs wouldn't necessarily know themselves.

Tip: Do not give your players HOMEWORK. Except for a short brochure, players should never be forced to read.

And yeah, don't "gotcha" them, that's the quickest way to alienate a player. That's how a meatspace table alienated me from all things Star Wars for years.

[Sarandosil]

I second the wiki idea. You can toss one up for your setting on the thecbg.org if you need a space for it, having the information up for your players to read through at their leisure is pretty nifty. Otherwise I run it like Dogbert. I show everyone the setting map before chargen and feed information as needed. The first adventure I run in a campaign is usually contrived to give the players a sense of the theme of the setting too.

[ACOS]

Wow, I go to work, and all kinds of stuff shows up here.
Thanks.

Here's the crux of the issue for me: player buy-in.

The last couple of games I've tried to run have been pretty disastrous; and I'm feeling a little shell-shocked. 20 years, and I've never had the kinds of problems that I've had lately ... at least not to this extent. I feel like I just woke up one day and forgot how to run a game.
I've had a string of players run across my table lately that seem to go out of their way to be contrarian and antagonistic. My thought is that if I can be more clear about the game's expectations, this might help curb this type of behavior.

So, my goal with a setting primer is to hard-code the game's expectations in to the setting via tone, mood, and theme.
Too long, and I might as well be writing a novel. Too pithy, and it feels like I'm losing too much feel of the setting.
"Happy medium" is hard for me to hit.

What I've taken from this thread is:
* direct and to the point. save the prose for those who ask for it;
* resist the urge to info-dump at pre-game. again, save the minutia for those who ask for it;

---

I can't be the only one who gets super exited about the setting I just put the finishing touches on, only to have all that work shat on by somebody who intentionally left all of his fucks at home.

[GnomeWorks]

shadzar... everyone here hates you. I've been lurking here for a few weeks, and already I know that.

And yet, here I am, a relative unknown quantity, and I respond to you, despite knowing that you're generally full of shit. Willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, admittedly naïve enough to take you seriously. I take your post and respond not with bullshit, or even with vitriol, but with what I feel is an honest reply, best summarized with an xkcd strip.

...and you throw a fucking gasket over it.

...taking a defensive where none was needed, then when you are called on your bullshit, you come back like the victim.

Because you took an over-aggressive stance where none was really necessary.

you don't want help in simple form like a list of product you could google, then don't fucking ask for or act like you want the ideas.

I'm sorry that I found it easier to ask someone in the know than to wade through the sea of shit that is google.

As someone of the younger generations: it is generally better to ask someone who knows what they're talking about, to glean the useful search terms from, than to spend hours wrestling with search engines trying to figure out how to get something useful from them.

That is the first, best, and last piece of advice I will give you. Because you are in the company of an esteemed few: assholes who I have willingly, intentionally, put on an ignore list on a messageboard.

Hope it was worth being an asshole for, you fucking shitstain.

[shadzar]

I've had a string of players run across my table lately that seem to go out of their way to be contrarian and antagonistic. My thought is that if I can be more clear about the game's expectations, this might help curb this type of behavior.

sounds more like just asshole players. nothing you can do will change that. they are seeking purposefully to destroy your work. while during the game it happens and DM has to deal with it. it just seems the players you have lately are modern gamers that just want to fuck around.

try to find other players as these will not change.

if you for some strange reason want to play with a bunch of asshats, then don't worry about setting building and just design one-shots that lead to other one-shots.

save the real setting you take effort and time putting together for people that will enjoy it.

your players are taking you for a ride down the road of DM burnout if you keep trying what you are doing but moving at their pace. so just change gears and let them get the stupid out of their system, or find someone who is interested in your setting design.


only you will know if your settings are starting to suck by looking over previous ones and comparing to the current ones. odds are it is just a wave of bad players. since 3rd edition D&D and the crap that is the d20 system, bad players have become the majority.

if you cant shake the bug of creation and making a setting, then keep everything small like an outline and just make it up on the fly so you dont have countless hours wasted designing something that will be ignored anyway. even if it is you can go back to it later, but resentment from the setting could linger even down the road because of bad players you had in the past. so keep all the work down and then you can rework it later for people who want more.

rule #1: you make a setting and world for yourself first as a DM. it is what you will enjoy running.

rule #2: players will fuck it up every chance they can because they don't know what you know about it and try to pick holes in it to find what they should be doing and destroy it in the process of exploration.

such is world design.

[shadzar]

shit that was here

-yawn-

[GnomeWorks]

-yawn-

Bye.